Should blizzard break DBM?

[Daltin]

I dislike DBM because it makes you not even have to process what's going on, but most raiding guild require it as an add-on. I wouldn't care if they broke it.

Don't know if I agree with the "don't have to process what's going on" comment. With trinkets like Convergence of Fate randomly reducing our CDs of our biggest abilities, sometimes you can squeeze something in before a phase change that makes the boss immune, sometimes you cant. If my major CD that lasts for 30 seconds comes off CD in 5 seconds, and I have 20 seconds before phase change, I'm not going to use it. If I have 25 seconds of uptime on my CD though?

Generally, DBM does distract more than help, I agree. There is absolutely an overflow of information. As a DPS, I don't need to know a majority of the range mechanic cooldowns, or tank cooldowns, or whatever. It is customizable, but it's very.. daunting, I guess is the word for it. If DBM had options of "Melee DPS", "Ranged DPS" to just easily click on and off, that would be so much better. I dislike having to individually go and check off things one by one. That's my biggest issue with DBM.

But, as I said in this thread previously, this is his income, this is his livelyhood, and it is an addon that people can choose to play without if they want a "bigger" challenge. Let the guy make the money he can, while he can. He's put in the work, and has declined a position within Blizzard. So they are clearly ok and like him. When he does things they don't like, they break it (Iron Maidens , BRF). Let the dude make his money, imo.

[amishjello]

Something would replace it. Blizz would kill DBM as good as they killed botting.

[Netherspark]

I wish it was dead already. Nothing worse than seeing people so dependant on it that they're literally clueless without it. Tanks that don't know when to taunt, DPS who don't know how to deal with mechanics, and healers who don't know when a big hit is coming - without that addon countless "expert" players just melt into morons.

You can discern all you need to by learning the fight and watching your surroundings.

Aside from that, it would be terrible design for a game to "need" a third party addon to play it (even though you really don't need it).

[jackofwind]

So you are in fact comfortable with eliminating someone's wages because of something you can easily avoid?

I'm saying that Blizzard isn't, and can't be, beholden to keeping the mod simply because it's the income of a 3rd party developer. Third party companies die all the time if they can't adapt when the products they support are discontinued, why should this one dude be any different.

It being his job doesn't even factor into the decision. As for me, I don't really care whether he loses the income or not. He decided to make 3rd party program for a game that has a finite lifespan and will die one day, and he knew that at any moment Blizzard could ban his product. He's not employed by them, they never asked him to make DBM.

It's a poor choice of career if you're not willing to accept that you're completely on your own, expendable, and not actually of tangible value to the product that you're dedicating yourself to supporting.

And yes, I wish the Addon itself was dead already.

[Puri]

They are even supporting it by sending events for mod developpers. So simply put they are not only aware that people use it, they probably assume they use it for high level content.

[Daedius]

Why should they?

What's the objective, to annoy a large portion of players? To stroke your own ego? etc.

Would be an incredibly retarded move to say the least...

[primalmatter]

Why should they?

Kind of my thoughts as well I cant really recall fights where I felt it was needed and those that are like mythic archi we used weak aura instead...

[Lollis]

The first time I remember using a boss encounter mob was probably on Vaelastrasz in 2006. Vaelastrasz isn't exactly complex but doing it without a mod was just a pain when tracking all the bombs and shit.

Suddenly denying people the ability to use mods that have been going for 10+ years isn't going to be looked on favourably by any serious raid group.

[Polarthief]

No because they now design fights assuming everyone in the raid has it, which has made fights significantly more complex and interesting.

As much as I love Ulduar (my favorite raid ever), it was fairly simple regarding most fight mechanics compared to live. The main reason live raids aren't my favorites is due to aesthetics, NPCs we're fighting, the bosses, the lore, etc. The only thing that's really improved over the years are fight mechanics.

If anything, they should implement DBM/BW into the game instead.

[Daltin]

I'm saying that Blizzard isn't, and can't be, beholden to keeping the mod simply because it's the income of a 3rd party developer. Third party companies die all the time if they can't adapt when the products they support are discontinued, why should this one dude be any different.

It being his job doesn't even factor into the decision. As for me, I don't really care whether he loses the income or not. He decided to make 3rd party program for a game that has a finite lifespan and will die one day, and he knew that at any moment Blizzard could ban his product. He's not employed by them, they never asked him to make DBM.

It's a poor choice of career if you're not willing to accept that you're completely on your own, expendable, and not actually of tangible value to the product that you're dedicating yourself to supporting.

And yes, I wish the Addon itself was dead already.

As a human being, you should care if he loses his income. It's a completely optional and avoidable addon to you, why would you just decide his money doesn't matter to him?

Yes, it is a finite income, that's why I said "let him make it while he can". He makes a good amount of money from it. What about people on Twitch.tv ? Streaming probably (maybe?) won't be a thing forever. That is also a finite income. It most likely isn't a sustainable thing. Let those people capitalize, and make that 6 figure income. But, with the way society is changing every day, who knows, maybe it really is the future and something like that -will- be sustainable for years and years.

"He knows Blizzard could ban his product / he isn't employed by them" , but they won't, because again, they -wanted- him to work for them. He declined.

I know, you know, and he knows, WoW is not going to last forever. We all know that money isn't going to be coming in forever, perhaps ending as soon as 4-5 years (speculation/guesswork of course). He'll need something to do then. Maybe the money and tech.experience he gets now will help him get a better, more profitable job, when the WoW bubble bursts.

[xuros]

They would have to reduce raid mechanics in a big way if they did. Most of these mythic fights would be impossible to do without a boss-mod. Although I'd be fine with it. I loved it when I would raid and not HAVE to use a boss-mod. For me hav ing to stare at those bars takes most of the fun out of the game.

[TheLimonTree]

they definitely should get rid of addons like that, and even healing/dps meters.

That's the case in FFXIV to a degree. While you can have a dps meter installed apparently you can get in trouble for harassment if you use it to attack someone.

[Deleted]

I'm saying that Blizzard isn't, and can't be, beholden to keeping the mod simply because it's the income of a 3rd party developer. Third party companies die all the time if they can't adapt when the products they support are discontinued, why should this one dude be any different.

It being his job doesn't even factor into the decision. As for me, I don't really care whether he loses the income or not. He decided to make 3rd party program for a game that has a finite lifespan and will die one day, and he knew that at any moment Blizzard could ban his product. He's not employed by them, they never asked him to make DBM.

It's a poor choice of career if you're not willing to accept that you're completely on your own, expendable, and not actually of tangible value to the product that you're dedicating yourself to supporting.

And yes, I wish the Addon itself was dead already.

The utter lack of empathy on display here should be shocking, but this is apparently what they think is normal.

You've even got the wannabe elitists mouthing off about how they personally don't need DBM to raid because they're just so fucking good omfg why don't you praise me for being so fucking great?

So what if you don't need it. Maybe other people do? If you don't need it, fuck off and don't use it. You have that choice. Just like you have the choice not to use a walking stick or a wheelchair if you don't need to. Some people do though. Why would you want to take that away from them?

[A Chozo]

The game's natural UI and the boss fights aren't intuitive enough to signal what is happening, or when.

I know when Bowser is doing a fire breath, because he'll usually take a deep breath and flames will flicker on his mouth.
I know when Captain Falcon will do a Falcon Punch, because he'll enter in a concentrating stance, and his fist will light on fire.
I don't know what the heck the fallen avatar is doing when he yells "RUIN". And what the heck are the swirly green things on the floor? It's fire, so it should be avoided, right? No? I need to read a journal and watch a video to know what the heck this thing will do, otherwise we'll stay here for four hours. Wait, lemme just download some addon to signal when this happens.

[Deleted]

DBM does not play the game for you - you still need to be aware of what's going on around you to do the fight. All DBM does is provide timers and warnings for certain boss abilities.

As for those of you bragging about how you don't use boss mods, good luck applying to even a low tier Mythic guild. If world first guilds aren't above using boss mods (albeit custom versions) then you have no excuse.

As it is I plan a lot of my small healing cooldowns around timers in boss fights so my healing is more effective - e.g. why would I want to pop a Cloudburst totem on a raid where everyone is already on full HP? If no boss abilities are timed or scripted, this kind of gameplay is no longer possible. WoW PvE would have to change DRASTICALLY for boss mods to become irrelevant. All abilities would become completely random in when and how frequently they happened, which means boss fights would have to become much easier, with a much wider margin for error as players would no longer be able to plan and predict things. Sure, adapting on the fly is also a good skill to have and will separate a good raider from an excellent raider, but the way boss fights work right now (and the way our classes are designed right now) means most boss fights do need to be scripted for the most part. It allows people to learn the rhythm of a fight, to practice and execute the mechanics correctly (aka progress).

[Wingspan]

"He knows Blizzard could ban his product / he isn't employed by them" , but they won't, because again, they -wanted- him to work for them. He declined.

I was completely neutral in this matter until you mentioned this. If he was offered a chance to join the team and refused, then any type of fallout on the issue is "on him".

He chose his destiny... For good or bad. Most of us don't have that kind of control concerning our income.

[davesurfer]

For the next expansion and going forward how would you guys feel if DBM was broken (any addon that helps with a raid fight) and the mechanics were adjusted knowing that players dont have this mod? Nothing overly complicated like mythic raids have been but something legit challenging yet fun.

Having it allows them to develop more complex and interesting fights. The Old Vanilla raids were tank and spank fights with some extra debuffs and such. BC wasn’t too much more complex. I would rather have a crutch and complex fights than no crutch and dumb down the fights. FYI my wife raids without it, but has me there to be the real life DBM yelling lol

[jackofwind]

As a human being, you should care if he loses his income. It's a completely optional and avoidable addon to you, why would you just decide his money doesn't matter to him?

Yes, it is a finite income, that's why I said "let him make it while he can". He makes a good amount of money from it. What about people on Twitch.tv ? Streaming probably (maybe?) won't be a thing forever. That is also a finite income. It most likely isn't a sustainable thing. Let those people capitalize, and make that 6 figure income. But, with the way society is changing every day, who knows, maybe it really is the future and something like that -will- be sustainable for years and years.

"He knows Blizzard could ban his product / he isn't employed by them" , but they won't, because again, they -wanted- him to work for them. He declined.

I know, you know, and he knows, WoW is not going to last forever. We all know that money isn't going to be coming in forever, perhaps ending as soon as 4-5 years (speculation/guesswork of course). He'll need something to do then. Maybe the money and tech.experience he gets now will help him get a better, more profitable job, when the WoW bubble bursts.

No, as a human being I don't need to care if he loses his income, just as I don't care if camgirls lose their income because they get fat and no one wants to watch them anymore. I don't care because it's a shitty career choice, and they're dealing with the consequences.

Do you care that streamers lose their income when no one watches their shows anymore? What about people who make podcasts? Do you care in general, like "oh yeah, that's unfortunate", or do you care to the extent that it seems you care about this one particular guy?

- - - Updated - - -

The utter lack of empathy on display here should be shocking, but this is apparently what they think is normal.

You've even got the wannabe elitists mouthing off about how they personally don't need DBM to raid because they're just so fucking good omfg why don't you praise me for being so fucking great?

So what if you don't need it. Maybe other people do? If you don't need it, fuck off and don't use it. You have that choice. Just like you have the choice not to use a walking stick or a wheelchair if you don't need to. Some people do though. Why would you want to take that away from them?

Because it's bad for the game, and raiding, as a whole. Point blank, it's an Addon that is bad for the overall health of the game.

Is it good for propping up people who otherwise couldn't perform in raids? Sure, that's what it's designed to do. It's training wheels, and that's what lower difficulty modes exist for already.

Everything you need to know about a boss can be found in-game via the Dungeon Journal, and by actually fighting the boss using the Blizzard UI. DBM was invented when the Blizzard frames didn't give you any warning at all about abilities, but we're a far way away from that now - Blizzard has mini-DBM built right in because fights are more complex. The difference is that the UI gives warnings, it doesn't spell things out completely for you and give you timers so that you can pre-empt abilities. DBM is a crutch, and in a competitive game where every advantage is used in order to stay competitive it's a crutch that desperately needs to be kicked away.

[mrgreenthump]

How do you suggest they would do it? I mean most fights are still based on timers, debuffs/buffs and HP precentages. Those that have more complicated mechanics, can be done with a simple weakaura asigning people based on some rather simple conditions.

Only way to really "break" it, is to design the better bosses and introduce new mechanics, but basing on the current trend, it's probably not going to happen.

[Wingspan]

Having it allows them to develop more complex and interesting fights. The Old Vanilla raids were tank and spank fights with some extra debuffs and such. BC wasn’t too much more complex. I would rather have a crutch and complex fights than no crutch and dumb down the fights. FYI my wife raids without it, but has me there to be the real life DBM yelling lol

I think providing a crutch here kind of negates the point of the extra difficulty. I don't really care one way or another if the mod stays or goes... I just think it is odd that people fear what difficulty will become without it.