Should blizzard break DBM?

[Queen of Hamsters]

They're definitely eventually going to, it's like cheating pretty much.

Kids can't comprehend shit today without addons galore, fucking tellmewhen LUL.

Hope to see you in Method's next world first race, slaying those mechanics and the performance with the basic UI and no addons.

Teach them kids how to do it!!

On a serious note: I remember some bright mind saying exactly what you said about "it's like cheating, they'll break it soon!" back during Sindragosa as they broke that addon that painted placements on the floor...

[Alvito]

They have implimented mechanics before that dbm can't track (second nelth boss for example), so they could easily design around both

They had to rework that boss several times and finally dropping it completely out of combat with the group to do that. There were several ways to mark the pillar until the NH patch that also made it so you couldn't pre mark barrels.

DBM style mods mixed with WA can just about remove some of the brain work required for fights. To combat this they make the mechanics faster, less forgiving if you miss them or just kill you if you mess up.

[Deleted]

Idc it would change anything to how raiding is these days....

[Alvito]

they definitely should get rid of addons like that, and even healing/dps meters.

Brilliant lets all just play guessing games to figure out if people are doing anything even remotely close to what they would be capable of. Next we can remove combat and just all watch the little video clips they release.

[Deleted]

Lies.
First iteration of the fight are always done WITHOUT any dbm for it.

Is that why i am looking at a world first KJ kill video now and i see a bunch of timers?
Not sure if its DBM or not exactly but it does exactly the same.

[cparle87]

Nope, DBM is run in-game(an addon), something like SimulationCraft is external software. So someone would probably just make an external program for you to turn timers on with a hotkey on a boss you selected beforehand whenever you pull. It might also use the hotkey for switching between phases and such if a phase depends on boss HP.

Oh. When I saw external I just thought "not made by Blizzard." I get you now.

[Alvito]

Removing DBM or things like it for heroic difficulties and below wouldn't be much if any issue at all. The fights all have emotes and other visual/audio tips that something is about to happen. In mythic they would have to completely rework fights. One problem they couldn't get around as long as we had bosses doing emotes and other things there will be an add on tracking that and reformatting that information for players. The genie is out of the bottle already now they have to try and get clever to work around these things.

[Queen of Hamsters]

First of all calm down.

Secondly, mythic raids are overtuned. They need to balance the game without dbm and addons, they fuck up the game.

Get off your high horse before you talk down to me.

I don't have to calm down, I'm merely replying to claims you made.
I'm also not the one on a "high horse", since I don't believe that DBM or other addons get "kids" the kills.

And the vast VAST majority of players don't partake in the content where DBM and other addons are necessary, so I fail to see how it "fucks up" the game as a whole.

[jackofwind]

They're definitely eventually going to.

Kids can't comprehend shit today without addons galore, fucking tellmewhen LUL.

Exactly.

How is it possible that we've gotten to the point where people complain that hard difficulties require too much attention be paid to mechanics? Why do people even play those difficulty levels if they don't want to be challenged as intended

Is the issue that people want to raid Mythic but aren't actually wiling to pay enough attention, so they prop themselves up with DBM? So now the thought of it going away makes them piss their pants because suddenly they won't be good enough to be a Mythic raider anymore, since they aren't willing to work as hard as required?

There are difficulty levels for a reason. If you can't play at the hardest one it's not the end of the world, they exist to separate out the commitment/skill-level of people. The only thing that's making people so mad about this is that it's shattering their fragile egos.

Can't pay enough attention to complete Mythic raids? Then you're not ready to raid Mythic. That's why there is a Heroic mode. That's why there's Normal. That's why there's LFR. That's the system, and the system doesn't need a 3rd party crutch.

[Deleted]

Shit, time to switch to BigWigs then

[Coffeexbean]

I think that would be better for the game and also more fun overall. Raiding got boring when you have to spoil what the raid looks like by watching boss vids before seeing it ingame yourself. It should be a blind walk in with your team and a few wipes before you can figure out what to do, raids would be more fun if you had no idea what the next boss looked like and you didnt know which direction to go

[Queen of Hamsters]

Exactly.

How is it possible that we've gotten to the point where people complain that hard difficulties require too much attention be paid to mechanics? Why do people even play those difficulty levels if they don't want to be challenged as intended

Is the issue that people want to raid Mythic but aren't actually wiling to pay enough attention, so they prop themselves up with DBM? So now the thought of it going away makes them piss their pants because suddenly they won't be good enough to be a Mythic raider anymore, since they aren't willing to work as hard as required?

There are difficulty levels for a reason. If you can't play at the hardest one it's not the end of the world, they exist to separate out the commitment/skill-level of people. The only thing that's making people so mad about this is that it's shattering their fragile egos.

Can't pay enough attention to complete Mythic raids? Then you're not ready to raid Mythic. That's why there is a Heroic mode. That's why there's Normal. That's why there's LFR. That's the system, and the system doesn't need a 3rd party crutch.

All those guilds whom can't get Mythic KJ down despite all them addons acting as "crutches" that take away the performance requirements vs mechanics.

[jackofwind]

All those guilds whom can't get Mythic KJ down despite all them addons acting as "crutches" that take away the performance requirements vs mechanics.

Because right now raiding is tuned around DBM, which is a shitty way to design things. Also, if guilds can't kill Mythic KJ it's entirely possible that they can't do so because they're not good enough. Some guilds have killed him, so it's possible to do so.

[Queen of Hamsters]

So you think DBM is necassary in raids but you don't believe DBM gets the "kids" the kills? That's literally hypocrisy. Unless i'm missing something.

I'd say you're missing something.

DBM and other addons exist, yet look at the amount of guilds able to down content whilst current. I am sure people could do it without DBM, but they wouldn't have to since boss fights would be less complex as a result. And I think that's ultimately what this is about, because then the bar would be lowered significantly and players unable to get kills now despite there being addons for aid, would stand a chance.

DBM is not getting people the kills. Players playing their classes properly vs the mechanics, are getting the kills.

[Hexorcist]

If they were to add solely timers to the basic UI, including pull timer, then I would happily wave bye-bye to DBM. I already have everything but timers disabled on mine and I raid just fine on mythic difficulty. It's not required at all, it is 100% possible to raid and perform well even with the current mechanical state of bosses without DBM. A lot of people have simply come to rely on DBM so much that they perceive it as a requirement -- and that's just a sign of someone who is doing content that's actually a little too challenging for them.

Fwiw I think most true mythic quality raiders could turn off their DBM and still do perfectly fine. Raids wouldn't need to be dumbed down much if at all. But those who are only able to play at that level as a result of DBM? They would struggle, and so they should. Heroic difficulty exists for them.

[jackofwind]

You keep saying DBM is a requirement for mythic raids and whatnot but then said DBM isn't getting them the kills. How does that make sense?

Because some people use it and still can't beat the boss, so obviously the addon isn't giving people kills. Ignoring of course the whole point that people are still getting propped up by the addon, they're just baseline worse players.

The argument is nonsense, but I doubt you'll see them acknowledging that.

[MoanaLisa]

You should be able to observe what's happening in the raid instance and be able to respond to it without something like DBM. Frankly, the game should be designed so that it can be played well without any add-on software at all.

[merex760]

Unless you want more simplistic encounters, because Blizzard designs fights with the assumption that people have a few very basic add-ons, and DBM is one of them.

[jackofwind]

I'd say you're missing something.

DBM and other addons exist, yet look at the amount of guilds able to down content whilst current. I am sure people could do it without DBM, but they wouldn't have to since boss fights would be less complex as a result. And I think that's ultimately what this is about, because then the bar would be lowered significantly and players unable to get kills now despite there being addons for aid, would stand a chance.

DBM is not getting people the kills. Players playing their classes properly vs the mechanics, are getting the kills.

I am very suspicious that you even raid currently based on your argument.

DBM absolutely gets players kills they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. It makes most mechanics in most fights braindead and turns raiding into a follow-the instructions game rather than one where players have to think for themselves.

All raids can be completed without DBM, it's just harder, and it's supposed to be harder, which is the entire point. The entire content of the game should be completely possible to complete, even if it's fucking-ludicrously-insanely-teeth-grindingly-hard, without any addons.

That's good game design. Crutches are bad for raiding. DBM is bad for raiding. Raiding would be better off without it.

[Queen of Hamsters]

You shouldn't need a third party addon in order to do in game content. That's my entire point.

Well, different opinions and all that.

My worry is that they'd dumb raid content down to err on the safe side to a point where we'd never see bosses like pre-Nerf HC Ragnaros, Mythic Gorefiend or whateverMythicbossinthelast5years ever again. Blizzard loves to go to extremes, after all.

- - - Updated - - -

I am very suspicious that you even raid currently based on your argument.

DBM absolutely gets players kills they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. It makes most mechanics in most fights braindead and turns raiding into a follow-the instructions game rather than one where players have to think for themselves.

All raids can be completed without DBM, it's just harder, and it's supposed to be harder, which is the entire point.

I raid currently, so your suspicions are wrong.

And sorry, but I'll take the word over people I know/follow that raid Mythic (whilst current) on this.