T20 vs T21 ilvls and bonuses - wtf?

[Pigglix]

In fact, it's a good time for rerolling. It litteraly rains AP on Argus and in class hall missions, AK level is now weekly (and a reroll automatically hit 110 with the actual AK), 1st and 2nd leg come very fast, and if you try hard a little bit, you can expect a legendary every week or so (and if you're lucky enough, you got your BIS), tokens give 910 baseline gear... And not to mention that Antorus' release is almost in 2 month.

I came back to my old Rsham some weeks ago, and even leveled a drood. Got 926 gear for both, 67 traits, and 3 legs each with not a huge effort.

Yeah...but what about the prestige levels and other stuff related to the artifact skins?

Like, i have my baby warrior and i only dropped her because of the DH, im trying to keep her up to date with the DH, but oh boy, it is hard, her prestige is so far behind the DH its not even fun, and her leggos, all trash, im only missing 4 leggos on her, and guess what? I still dont have either the helm or legs (she's fury).

DH on the other hand, a has both tower challenge completed, have all leggos (only missing 1 leggo from tank spec), while warrior is still missing the tank one, and omg, the tank one is soo harder on her than it was on the DH.

So yeah, not really easy to change mains at all if you're a completicionist (or w/e how that is spelled)

[Neviriah]

The reason I don't reroll? All my achievements are on this character. I don't want to go through the AP farming again and I don't want to go through all of the questlines and legendary farming again. If rerolling was as easy as it was in WoD, I wouldn't be a DH by now.

Same for me. Though, add "all current achievements etc. are on this character...." <--- If it wouldn't be for all the Grind of AP /Artifact stuff and legendaries, then I'd probably reroll back to my warrior. But yeah ... same.

Although I do like the "feeling" of how DH plays. Probably I'm just a sucker for classes that generate resource to spend it. Unlike energy or mana etc.

And I do consider myself a good player as well :3.

[Farah]

It's not really that crazy if you think about it, think of the set bonuses like so:

T20 -
2pc: 24% damage increase to blade dance(20% crit on an ability which does 120% crit damage), which with first blood hits slightly harder than a chaos strike.

That is not how it works; you are considerably overvaluing the set bonus. If you have, say, 55% crit using EoC, the expected damage of Blade Dance is 240%*0.55 + 100%*0.45 = 177%, and then the tier bonus giving 20% more crit brings that to 240%*0.75 + 100%*0.25 = 205%. This means that the tier bonus gives 205/177 = +15.8% Blade Dance damage.

In fact to get +24% Blade Dance damage from the set bonus you'd need to have only 11.9% crit.

Similarly, you don't get an extra CS from the 4pc every time you Blade Dance; the actual gain is +5 fury every time you Blade Dance, i.e. 1/6th of a CS.

[sosleapy]

I mean, I'm one of the remaining DHs playing at high level and I consider myself to be a good player (I had a 100 parse in Goroth until a week ago, I think it's now a top 2 or smth) and I still think DH is trash and not worth of picking for raid.

If you're a good player and you're able to use another class, there's just no point using a DH because we don't excell at anything and we've to fight against mechanics other classes don't have to.

Biggest one being this shit called Nemesis. Which fucking class loses DPS the way we do when priority targets spawn?

And if DHs are not bad in ToS for you... you better get your facts straight, because yes, we are bad. We're only good in one fight, Maiden, because everything that happens there multiplies our burst, the only thing we're best at.

The reason I don't reroll? All my achievements are on this character. I don't want to go through the AP farming again and I don't want to go through all of the questlines and legendary farming again. If rerolling was as easy as it was in WoD, I wouldn't be a DH by now.

In fact, most of the best DHs in the world already rerolled. Kib, for instance, the maintainer of the DH Discord, rerolled to rogue a while ago.

so he rerolled rogue to be worst or slightly better than DH LOL....there is still 4 specs below Havoc on dps charts overall so yeah unless you are Hardcore wtf is the point in rerolling? Are you competing for top 200? if the answer is no then why worry about it. are you top 100? then it might be a possibility. i just think when you force yourself to reroll this game has become more of a job than for fun. Which last i checked 99% of the people raiding dont get paid for it as a job unless you are big streamer and that is how you make your living.

the only time i have ever rerolled was to prove a point to a friend that is it not always the class that sometimes it is the player.

okay so i did some research for fights top 50 for dps and here we go on mythic:
goroth: mostly marks hunter, frost mage, havoc demon hunters
Demonic: Balance druid and aff lock made up most of the group
harjatan: Balance druid and ele shaman made up most of the group
mistress" balance druid, shadow priest, ele shaman made uip most of the group
sisters: spread pretty evenly amongst all classes besides dh only a couple in top 50
Desolate host: shadowpriest and afflock made up most of the group
maiden: Havoc dh and arms warrior made up most of the group
avatar: fire mage and shadow priest made up most of the group
KJ: balance druid , aff lock, and arms warrior made up most of the group

so i guess going off that everyone should be playing a balance druid, ele shaman, shadow priest or aff lock to be relevant in dps...point is unless wanting to be top 100-150 who cares what you play as long as shit is dying and you are not being a baddie yourself...

i mean hell look at just heroic we are top 10 in dps https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#difficulty=4 where most of the people raid is heroic

yes in mythic we die closer to the bottom but you are making it sound like it is the end of the damn world

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And this is why I'm leveling a rogue...

better be subtlety or you are going to suck more than a havoc dh

[Shirofune]

so he rerolled rogue to be worst or slightly better than DH LOL....there is still 4 specs below Havoc on dps charts overall so yeah unless you are Hardcore wtf is the point in rerolling? Are you competing for top 200? if the answer is no then why worry about it. are you top 100? then it might be a possibility. i just think when you force yourself to reroll this game has become more of a job than for fun. Which last i checked 99% of the people raiding dont get paid for it as a job unless you are big streamer and that is how you make your living.

the only time i have ever rerolled was to prove a point to a friend that is it not always the class that sometimes it is the player.

okay so i did some research for fights top 50 for dps and here we go on mythic:
goroth: mostly marks hunter, frost mage, havoc demon hunters
Demonic: Balance druid and aff lock made up most of the group
harjatan: Balance druid and ele shaman made up most of the group
mistress" balance druid, shadow priest, ele shaman made uip most of the group
sisters: spread pretty evenly amongst all classes besides dh only a couple in top 50
Desolate host: shadowpriest and afflock made up most of the group
maiden: Havoc dh and arms warrior made up most of the group
avatar: fire mage and shadow priest made up most of the group
KJ: balance druid , aff lock, and arms warrior made up most of the group

so i guess going off that everyone should be playing a balance druid, ele shaman, shadow priest or aff lock to be relevant in dps...point is unless wanting to be top 100-150 who cares what you play as long as shit is dying and you are not being a baddie yourself...

i mean hell look at just heroic we are top 10 in dps https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#difficulty=4 where most of the people raid is heroic

yes in mythic we die closer to the bottom but you are making it sound like it is the end of the damn world

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better be subtlety or you are going to suck more than a havoc dh

Slightly better? Did you check:

1/ The versatility of rogues
2/ The damage they deal
3/ The massive utility they bring

??

And wtf is that argument about being top 200. Do you even Mythic raid? Mechanics are THE SAME no matter if you're in a top 100 guild or a top 200. If anything, rerolling to a better class gives you a better chance to kill the boss if you're in a worse guild since everything becomes EASIER.

Example: Mythic Avatar. To the day, it's still a big block for guilds progressing. Having 4 rogues soloing Touches of Sargeras makes the boss a LOT easier. Same for Kil'jaeden. And no, we're not Method here.

Is not about being a job, is about doing what you're trying to do in a Mythic raid guild. Killing Mythic bosses. That means you've to always have the mentality of 'what can I do better', and sometimes, that means switching to another class entirely. Sometimes you do it out of free will, other times you're asked to reroll or you're benched (like what happened to me in my previous guild).

Sure, skill matters, but at this point, and comparing percentiles (99) it's obvious that is not. And it's obvious by your last point you didn't touch Mythic not even in videos.

The only reason we as DHs are getting better now is because boss are dying FASTER. That's the only reason. We're a burst loaded class, the shorter the boss lives, the stronger our DPS is. You know what? That's pointless because that happens when a boss is on farm already, not on progression.

And no, is not the end of the world, but pretending DH is fine is like saying that shooting yourself with a shotgun won't kill you.

[sosleapy]

Slightly better? Did you check:

1/ The versatility of rogues
2/ The damage they deal
3/ The massive utility they bring

??

And wtf is that argument about being top 200. Do you even Mythic raid? Mechanics are THE SAME no matter if you're in a top 100 guild or a top 200. If anything, rerolling to a better class gives you a better chance to kill the boss if you're in a worse guild since everything becomes EASIER.

Example: Mythic Avatar. To the day, it's still a big block for guilds progressing. Having 4 rogues soloing Touches of Sargeras makes the boss a LOT easier. Same for Kil'jaeden. And no, we're not Method here.

Is not about being a job, is about doing what you're trying to do in a Mythic raid guild. Killing Mythic bosses. That means you've to always have the mentality of 'what can I do better', and sometimes, that means switching to another class entirely. Sometimes you do it out of free will, other times you're asked to reroll or you're benched (like what happened to me in my previous guild).

Sure, skill matters, but at this point, and comparing percentiles (99) it's obvious that is not. And it's obvious by your last point you didn't touch Mythic not even in videos.

The only reason we as DHs are getting better now is because boss are dying FASTER. That's the only reason. We're a burst loaded class, the shorter the boss lives, the stronger our DPS is. You know what? That's pointless because that happens when a boss is on farm already, not on progression.

And no, is not the end of the world, but pretending DH is fine is like saying that shooting yourself with a shotgun won't kill you.

DH is fine tho outside mythic raiding...and then even then they are okayish. but you are saying they are completely worthless when they really aint. god i cant stand elitest like you.

there is always going to be a cycle of this class better than other classes has been that way since vanilla...play the game to have fun if you care about numbers play one of the other classes and then when they suck you can come back and bitch and cry about them sucking and then reroll again.

i have never really hit mythic raiding as i am on a crappy population server group. heroic is all i have done consistantly and have never seen the issue.

there is a reason all these top guilds have more than one dps class. they dont stick to one class so if you are stuck with one class maybe you aint as hardcore as you think you are...

i am just tired of all these cry baby rerolling threads like it is going to make a difference on MMO champ forums. everyone is entitled to opinions but instead of crying about it do something about it. if you are that hardcore so what if you have to reroll people do it everyday. im just saying outside mythic any class is just fine yeah might make it alittle harder but so what and if you got benched i am sorry about that too

[hexify]

Example: Mythic Avatar. To the day, it's still a big block for guilds progressing. Having 4 rogues soloing Touches of Sargeras makes the boss a LOT easier. Same for Kil'jaeden. And no, we're not Method here.

This right here is what sucks about this raid tier. So many soak mechanics, when Nighthold barely had any. This is just bad boss design. Besides, DH's can solo soak touches with blur while still keeping netherwalk.

[Shirofune]

DH is fine tho outside mythic raiding...and then even then they are okayish. but you are saying they are completely worthless when they really aint. god i cant stand elitest like you.

there is always going to be a cycle of this class better than other classes has been that way since vanilla...play the game to have fun if you care about numbers play one of the other classes and then when they suck you can come back and bitch and cry about them sucking and then reroll again.

i have never really hit mythic raiding as i am on a crappy population server group. heroic is all i have done consistantly and have never seen the issue.

there is a reason all these top guilds have more than one dps class. they dont stick to one class so if you are stuck with one class maybe you aint as hardcore as you think you are...

i am just tired of all these cry baby rerolling threads like it is going to make a difference on MMO champ forums. everyone is entitled to opinions but instead of crying about it do something about it. if you are that hardcore so what if you have to reroll people do it everyday. im just saying outside mythic any class is just fine yeah might make it alittle harder but so what and if you got benched i am sorry about that too

I'm sorry. I find pointless to debate about performance on top tier raiding with someone that considers it elitist content, when HC is the casual content to begin with.

If you still think a 8/9 M DH that played the class since it was released through all the changes and also managed to parse between 99-100 knows less than you, then there's nothing to talk about it.

Have a nice day.

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This right here is what sucks about this raid tier. So many soak mechanics, when Nighthold barely had any. This is just bad boss design. Besides, DH's can solo soak touches with blur while still keeping netherwalk.

Everything got considerably easier with Crucible, afaik.

KJ is still a shitfest tho.

[BananaHandsB]

Don't worry, they'll nerf the shit out of t20 to make t21 useable

Sadly, I bet this will happen.

[Skayth]

It's not really that crazy if you think about it, think of the set bonuses like so:

T20 -
2pc: 24% damage increase to blade dance(20% crit on an ability which does 120% crit damage), which with first blood hits slightly harder than a chaos strike. So, basically, once every 7-8 seconds you get a half-cost chaos strike that does 24% extra damage.

4pc: every time you blade dance, you get 2/3 of a chaos strike worth of fury(average fury cost of chaos strike at 50% crit rate is 30). Or, looked at another way, you get one extra chaos strike every 10-11ish seconds based on haste.

so, all in all, in a 45 second window, you're gaining roughly 2 chaos strikes worth of damage from the 2pc, and roughly 4 chaos strikes worth of fury from the 4pc, both of which scale very favorably with haste and gear in general.

T21 -

2pc: eye beam deals 30% extra damage. Eye beam's actual base damage does almost identical damage to chaos strike, except it does not scale with the best artifact trait that we are itemizing for so it scales much worse. But for the sake of argument, lets say 1 eye beam = 1 chaos strike, on average. This means once every 45 seconds, you get approximately 1/3 of an extra chaos strike worth of damage.

4pc: 15% haste for 8 seconds after eye beam. This is just garbage, its 10% less haste than meta, and even 5% less haste than a sephuz proc. 15% haste for 8 seconds, after diminishing returns, is ROUGHLY one extra GCD/auto attack. so, one extra gcd every 45 seconds.

just comparing the two in terms of our made up currency of chaos strikes:

t20 gives you: approximately 2 chaos strikes worth of damage from the 2pc, and 4-5 chaos strikes worth of damage from the 4pc, both scale very favorably with haste, for a total of, lets say, 6 extra chaos strikes worth of damage in a 45 second window.

T21 gives you: 2pc gives you 1/3 of a chaos strike, and 4pc gives you one extra gcd, lets call it a chaos strike assuming no resource starvation, every 45 seconds. so, 1 1/3 extra chaos strikes every 45 seconds.

conclusion: the t21 set bonuses are approximately 5x worse than the current set bonuses, and scale very unfavorably with stats in general. eye beam does not scale with crit, our best stat, or haste, or second best stat, while blade dance and chaos strike scale very well with both. The 2pc bonues, in comparison, are: roughly 8 extra chaos strikes versus 1/3 of a chaos strike, which is 26x worse. the 4pc of t21 is likely to do almost nothing most of the time, as it will be up during meta or bloodlust a good chunk of the time and amount to a tiny amount of extra haste after gear + bloodlust/meta, making its value actually less than i generously predicted it at being.

Since set bonuses make up a much larger contribution than ilvl increases, particularly given that secondaries scale particularly poorly with ilvl, and are way more valuable than agi, it's likely that you'd need a very, very large ilvl increase on your t21 gear to make it better than old t20 gear. With titanforging and all that, my guess is unless these set bonuses see some major, major buffs or reworks, we'll be going back to TOS to get t20 gear for the entire tier. More likely, bliz will just nerf the crap out of t21 and force us to use their awful new tier set bonuses. Even more troubling is the nature of these set bonus changes, which include nothing that generates or discounts resources, like generating 20 fury on a blade dance or making blade dance a really good button to press at a discounted 15 fury, so we are likely to have serious resource starvation issues once again in t21 which, more so than any damage gains/losses, will make the playstyle way more awful.

you forgot to adjust the haste from the 4pc to be with demonic. its 15% on top of 25, so its roughly your own bloodlust when you use demonic. but... i still think its garbage. Id rather have mastery or something.

[Zyky]

So .. I was simming around the tier bonuses, mainly because the T20 2 piece seems so be worth very much and according to my results, 4pc of T20 at 930 ilvl is actually better than 4pc of T21 at 960 ilvl. What is this bullshit, or are my sims wrong? Would be retarded to force into 2/4 pieces from last tier.

Also breaking the T20 2 piece seems to be worth only if the 2 pieces have +45-50 ilvl each.

Something seems very broken.

Your sims aren't wrong, it isn't until 4p T21 with base IL of each being AT LEAST 970 that they become better than 930 T20. The tier is just awful tbh.

[Deleted]

DH is fine tho outside mythic raiding...and then even then they are okayish. but you are saying they are completely worthless when they really aint. god i cant stand elitest like you.

there is always going to be a cycle of this class better than other classes has been that way since vanilla...play the game to have fun if you care about numbers play one of the other classes and then when they suck you can come back and bitch and cry about them sucking and then reroll again.

i have never really hit mythic raiding as i am on a crappy population server group. heroic is all i have done consistantly and have never seen the issue.

there is a reason all these top guilds have more than one dps class. they dont stick to one class so if you are stuck with one class maybe you aint as hardcore as you think you are...

i am just tired of all these cry baby rerolling threads like it is going to make a difference on MMO champ forums. everyone is entitled to opinions but instead of crying about it do something about it. if you are that hardcore so what if you have to reroll people do it everyday. im just saying outside mythic any class is just fine yeah might make it alittle harder but so what and if you got benched i am sorry about that too

The thread was not about DH sucks and I'll reroll. The fact that Havoc is one of the worst choices for mythic raiding while other classes have multiple specs performing better is a different thing .

The problem is with the half assed tier bonus design or half assed design of most things.
There is by no means ok to have your new set that has an upgrade of 30ilvls for each piece performing worse than the previous tier. What should DH's do, beg the guild to farm the previous tier so they can have shots at Titanforged so they can have a chance at staying relevant?
Most likely instead of designing some bonuses that are on par with the last tier, or at least work better overall and worth it to upgrade to the new tier, they will nerf the previous tier to the ground so that the crappy design can stay.

[Deleted]

Where are you seeing all class T19 T20 and even T21 sets? Where can I see that?

You can find them on wowhead. You can even find them ingame on the loot tab of the adventure journal.

[sosleapy]

The thread was not about DH sucks and I'll reroll. The fact that Havoc is one of the worst choices for mythic raiding while other classes have multiple specs performing better is a different thing .

The problem is with the half assed tier bonus design or half assed design of most things.
There is by no means ok to have your new set that has an upgrade of 30ilvls for each piece performing worse than the previous tier. What should DH's do, beg the guild to farm the previous tier so they can have shots at Titanforged so they can have a chance at staying relevant?
Most likely instead of designing some bonuses that are on par with the last tier, or at least work better overall and worth it to upgrade to the new tier, they will nerf the previous tier to the ground so that the crappy design can stay.

im not the one that started all the reroll crap...everyone crying oh no i need to reroll was. i was just stating if you aint in the top tier mythic raiding like 100 it dont matter. but everyone makes it out worst than it really is. I raid heroic with a havoc dh and he is owning the charts while being same ilevel as other people. hell when i was havoc at ilevel 915ish i was owning everyone else with ilevel 925ish.

the whole reroll thing has always been around. if you are that serious about raiding then you will just reroll. rerolling has been around since bc days if not sooner.....

yes the tier bonus' suck but it happens we can piss and moan on the mmo-champ forums where our voice wont be heard or we can do it on wow forums and in the ptr and give good feed back and see if things change. but we all know blizz dont listen to us so if you want to continue raiding reroll noone is stopping you and this day and age it is easy to get just as close as your main is with some effort. which if you are a hardcore player then that shouldnt be and issue.

[Deleted]

im not the one that started all the reroll crap...everyone crying oh no i need to reroll was. i was just stating if you aint in the top tier mythic raiding like 100 it dont matter. but everyone makes it out worst than it really is. I raid heroic with a havoc dh and he is owning the charts while being same ilevel as other people. hell when i was havoc at ilevel 915ish i was owning everyone else with ilevel 925ish.

the whole reroll thing has always been around. if you are that serious about raiding then you will just reroll. rerolling has been around since bc days if not sooner.....

yes the tier bonus' suck but it happens we can piss and moan on the mmo-champ forums where our voice wont be heard or we can do it on wow forums and in the ptr and give good feed back and see if things change. but we all know blizz dont listen to us so if you want to continue raiding reroll noone is stopping you and this day and age it is easy to get just as close as your main is with some effort. which if you are a hardcore player then that shouldnt be and issue.

So ... what will you reroll ?

[sosleapy]

I'm sorry. I find pointless to debate about performance on top tier raiding with someone that considers it elitist content, when HC is the casual content to begin with.

If you still think a 8/9 M DH that played the class since it was released through all the changes and also managed to parse between 99-100 knows less than you, then there's nothing to talk about it.

Have a nice day.

can i see your logs then? oh wait you are above me you dont have to do that sorry for asking...

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So ... what will you reroll ?

I wont. the only time i rerolled was warrior to DH to prove a point to a friend of mine at the beginning of legion. i rather enjoy my DH

[Siq1ne]

Do keep in mind that they nerfed the T19 with the release of the T20 and you might expect that again with T21. Also this isn't new, it's been a thing for the entirety of WoW's existence, atleast here and there. I can't recall the tier off the top of my head but I specifically remember my feral druid being 2 tiers behind because the set was just that damn good.

At least now they're trying to avoid this problem to an extent.

[Preliatus]

I'm sorry. I find pointless to debate about performance on top tier raiding with someone that considers it elitist content, when HC is the casual content to begin with.

If you still think a 8/9 M DH that played the class since it was released through all the changes and also managed to parse between 99-100 knows less than you, then there's nothing to talk about it.

Have a nice day.

Awheeee yesssss... We're pulling the big epeens out, this thread is going to get interesting now!

[Shirofune]

can i see your logs then? oh wait you are above me you dont have to do that sorry for asking...

They're on my signature...

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Awheeee yesssss... We're pulling the big epeens out, this thread is going to get interesting now!

What does it have to do with e-peens?

I posted 2 fucking bibles explaining why we're bad and why what he thinks is wrong and he keeps saying "We're fine cause I raid in HC and the boss dies in 2 minutes and a DH is topping the charts".

Like, come on.

No offense, but if you're a Mythic raider you usually know more and play better than someone whose peak raiding is HC.

[kaelleria]

As I stated earlier...
Sub rogues currently do the following -
Roughly equivalent ST damage
Much Better AOE
Cloak > Netherwalk. Full stop. Netherwalk allows you to immune something sure, but it doesn't prevent debuff application, WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

Throw in a garbage t21 and I can't justify staying a DH. I like the frenetic playstyle the DH has, but we're not going to get better without some changes.