What options are available for the nightborne?

[Mace]

Details can change, I'm just predicting an overall scenario.

Maybe Suramar stays neutral, but a group of Nightborne join the Horde.
Maybe Suramar joins the Horde, but in a neutral-ish way with no ill feelings towards the Alliance (kinda like the Draenei in the Alliance).

What I'm (almost) sure of is that nightborne will be playable in the Horde. I won't wager on details beyond that, but I'm very skeptical of nightborne being playable on both factions.

I think part of the problem here is people are thinking too much in terms of what is good for them or for the faction. If you look at it from the perspective of what is good for the night elven group, both kalimdor night elves and the broken isle groups incl the nightborne, it's clear that getting toegther with thier people is best option.

From a story point of view, it's by far the most romantic. Look at the night elves as a whole (this includes the nightborne, who are the last vestige of the Kaldorei empire), losing their empire after such an amazing period where htey excelled did so well, but fell victim to over exertion - they tried too hard, got addicted in a way that made their leadership forget themselvs and do the unthinkable. All the grae, beauty progress wiped out.. a hard lesson, millions of lives lost , a great and beautiful empire in ruins, and the world they believed their sacred beauty to perfect instead they end up causing its near destruction.

It goes against the grain of everything they bleieved, it would have broken them if not for the help of the dragons and a nobility that rose up to face the problem. but it left them in a state of emergency for 10k years, forsakking even developing themselve, looking at their birthright as a posoned chalice, using th e properities of the arcane but daring not to wield it to keep the world safe. not because they hate magic. Rememer they hated those who callously and cruelly abused it, but magic made the night elves, and even though they woudln't use the arcane directly for spellwork for a 10k year period, they used its phsyical waters and energies to improve the lands via the moonwells.

To have given up that much and finally attain victory ofver the legion and not ever return to doing the thing they are best at correctly would be a crying shame. Getting back on track to where they were before the addiction came would actually be the most beautiful thing and the promise of a very bright future where for the first time since before the addiction, arcane, nature and divine work together in harmony - it's really fairy tale aspiration of the greatest kind, something warcraft needs. and that's just from a story broadstroke point of view from the perspectiv e of the night elf group as a whole (i.e. kaldorei, highborne, nightborne etc and all those associated with that world.

From a tactical point of view in terms of military, what each can gain from the other, again night elves need nightborne far more than blood elves and night elveshave far more to offer nightborne than blood elves do. Example, night elves though learning are still very low on numebers for the arcane discipline, the few shend'ralar are no where near enough to ake the impact needed for them to be operating in full aracne swing despite their knoweldge, they really need a whole nation of magic users to be aligned with them to give them the magical muscle they need to stand their own against their enemies, it's the only thing enough to match the blood elves and afford the sort of self sufficiency and ability to defend themselves and stand. They have lost a lot of numbers too from WC3, enough to force them to have joined the alliance, and Cataclysm was brutal on them - they were completley outnumbered and over run by a horde invasion, 1 blood elf in Azshara, 2 in desolace were wrecking entire garrisons and military offensives- without a doubt they needed magic which helped them push past their greviances with the past and lift the ban, not to mention now with the revelations about the past, the legions motives and the cure for addiction, not to mention the wisdom they have to use magic in balance and the defeat of the legion including ways to shield magic from them - all the road blocks to it both practically, objectively, psychologyically and phsyically have been addressed. The nightborne and Suramar returning to the fold i think is the kinda boost hte night elves need to make them at least on par with the orcs or humans something WoW has shown they are no where near atm.

As for the nightborne, the blood elves have nothing they can really learn from them, but the night elves do. They excel the blood elves at magical craft, and despite the new and clever ways the blood elves have boosted power, enough to impress Silgryn and Victoire, it is not on the level of mastery and knowledge of the nightborne. Sure a young apprentice like Aethas' ward can learn things from a blood elf, but that would be true for a human because she herself is quite young that's more an indivudal thing than a race thing. the nightborne are the night elves that have an unbroken study and pracitce of arane magic from the days of the kaldorei empire, they don't need anything from the blood elves in that department. From the night elves however, they need the priesthood and nature, the order of Elune's restoration brings a much needed spiritual element which they could get from the light via the blood elves, but the nightborne have no angst against Elune and this is where her biggest and most holy temples are, it makes no sense for a night group to go the human/blood elf light way when Elune is their heritage. And nature, it is nature fused with arcane together that brought salvation to the nightborne from the nightwell dependency and the withering curse. It is balance with nature they require and the mastery of nature magic that the night elves have too is something the blood elves don't have and the nightborne do not, that would also be attractive to to mention necessary to fully restore them.

Furthermore, they are in Suramar, this is Kaldorei/shal'dorei land, it's night elf territory and they are the night elves that hold it, they are surrounded and integrated with night elves too, broken isle night elves fleeing the legion and the nightmare went to find refuge in Suramar their ancient city once the walls went down. Thalyssra opened her arms to them and they helped in the war effort, it would not be good to then take the entire nightborne people and say lets make that horde and deny the rest of the night elves reconnecting with a major slice of their empire, - especially now that htey've started re-embracing their past and they have nhighborne amongst them, and what about the other non-alliance, non-highborne arcane wielding night elves? like the Moonguard?

Finally wouldn't night elves be more concerned about restoring order and beauty and getting back oon track to save the world rather make alliance or horde needs their priority? Restoring themselves would be more important, and that actually means working with the rest of the night elven groups, who may be in the alliance for now, but surely they don't identify themselves as alliance most of them hav elived 10,000 years, the alliance thing is only 15-20 odd years old to them.. what this means is that htey'dbe more concerned with restoring night elven dom and than the alliance /horde thing and it is from this point of view they would reach out to the blood elves, not to schism themselves from the night elves just to bond with blood elves. No, it would be to unify their people againi, and themajor group of them are alliance.

This is why i see the nightborne being night elf ccentric or leaning if not out right being available as a night elf sub-race or alongside the night elves. I can also see them invovled with the blood elves , that too for sure, but it would be very bad if that happens at the expense of the night elves. Unless you think of nightborne as night elves in which case it would just be night elves on the horde side too but have serious ramifications for the night elf restoration story. Especially hfter blizzard has written them going through so much crap.

[frogger237]

they will be just another faction that will disappear next expansion

Honestly I think you may be right. Unless they eventually do add subraces as a thing like pretty much everyone wants they will be forgotten like every other race we have came across and helped out. With at most maybe one or two of the race showing up in another expansions or in the books.

[Mace]

Accepting the arcane is different from accepting the highborne culture of old. Shen'dralar (and high elves, maybe, in the future) are different from the nightborne in the sense that they are pariahs and exiles without their own land. They tried to find sources of power and failed, and they come to the night elves humbled. They literally accepted be integrated into the darnassian society, and they did so out of necessity.

that's all true, but lets not forget they also wanted their people whole again, that Dire Maul is not lost and they got the re-enforcements to claim it back. Afterall don't we the adventurers free Dire Maul for Estulan . The future is not in being apart from their people but together has a whole, the same logic can extend to the nightborne who gain a lot more from connecting with the night elves than they do with the blood elves, and the night elves gain a lot more from the nightborne than the blood elves do too

Yes, the kaldorei have accepted the arcane practices back, but their culture does not revolve around it. It's a very different setup from nightborne and blood elves, which embrace the arcane and use it regularly in their daily lives. Just because Darnassus allows mages now does not mean the night elves do not keep careful watch over them.

Indeed and that's because of the events 10k years ago, already we have the druids recognising highborne like Estulan and Evenshade as uncorrupted, which shows that while some of MAiev's ilk are still suspicious .. i guess it's natural for policeman types to always be so, most of the more stable minded recognise times have move d on - and being suspicious towards the shen'dralar highborne doens't mean the same suspicion would extend to the nightborne or the moonguard or the farondis highborne. REmember the nighborne weren't all highborne, and their history is not the same as the Eldre'thalas night elves or the Zin'Azshari ones, Suramar rebelled against the Queen across the board, and it was from their the army that marched on her came from.

Embracing or allying with highborne or nightborne doesn't mean kaldorei culture will revolve around the arcane. If you look at kaldorei culture it is actually quite segregated, the druids are totally separate from the priests/hunters, and the mages would be too. The highborne/nightborne would revolve around the arcane, but the druids won't and the priests won't either. They've largely functioned like that, it's jsut htat now a large numbe rof kaldorei are druids so you see that influence, with the arcane numbers boosting significanlty with the nightborne, you willl that influence too, but only in the urban areas, they still won't mix, each has their own puruists.. these guys are very fixated on what theya re called to do which is why they have gained such phenomenal mastery over magic whether arcane, nature or divine.

Suramar, in contrast, is a sovereign nation, just as is Silvermoon. And, as a nation, still powerful and proud, they can choose their allies not out of necessity, but affinity. Thus, allying themselves with the blood elves makes a lot more sense than trying to reconcile with the Kaldorei, which they see as primitive (and who, in turn, do not trust them).

I also need to point out that Valewalker Farondin is not a druid. His help with the Arcan'dor does not mean the nightborne owe anything to the darnassian night elves (besides gratitude for helping freeing Suramar, of course, but in that case the blood elves were just as helpful).

Allying with the night elves is not logical, you speak as if reconciliation would be some strenous and difficult task where it actually feels the organic thing to do. The influence and presence of the highborne, the shift in attitudes towards mmagic and the genereral segregation of night elf osciety make it rather easy.

And character wise, any dobuts or hesitation or questions about the Shal'dorei worthiness to stand tall amongst their kaldorei kin have been emphatically ansered by their behaviour dealing with teh legion culminating in the decision to drain the nightwell, they've acted eactly in theway thier kaldorei other half acted in the war of the ancients, so i don't think it would be hard tfor any night elf even the most reluctant to trust the shal'dorei. And Farodin is a druid Valewalker, you have mage ones too, they are an order made of the primitive druids (the night elf nature users in the time before Malfurion found Cenarius and highborne mages). That was only at their formation, obviously as more than 10k years have passed, the lieks of Farodin's druidc knoweldge would have grown and he likely would have at some point learnt and extended his knowledge under Cenarius or Malfurion. Valewalker is an order not a class, an order of druids and mages.

Suramar being a soverign nation doesn't predispose it to be more suited or a better fit to sIlvermoon , ti's a night and day difference, one is nocturnal the other dirunal, both are arcane and elven tha'ts what they share, but one belongs to the night the other to the day , Blodo elves aren't rembracing night ways and kaldorei empreire ways, night elvs though are embracing their arcane heritage and have highborne amognst them who follow the empire traditions and cultures, the blood elves do not. They have more for them in terms of similarities, what htey are use to, in terms of history and in terms of new things and opporutnieis for growth alongside the night elves than they do the blood elves.

it doesn't mean they will or shoudl hate the blood elves, no. I think one of the nice things about 7.1 onwards is showing that the nightborne can also get along with the blood elves and aren't necessarily enemies to them like they are with the night elves. I also don't think the nightborne allying with the night elves would make them automatic enemies of the blood elves. I see it better and actually far more happening amongst the night elves/nightborne than with nightborne and blood elves, but just because the nightborne night elves are becomingwhole again doesn't mean the nightborne or highborne have to hate the blood elves. And lore has shown us they do not. THe highborne taught the blood elves reforging. Tyrande may not approve, but it shows that they are not goverened by her, even though they work alongside her. (night elf segregated society remember? - it's what make sthem unique..

[Beloren]

Accepting the arcane is different from accepting the highborne culture of old. Shen'dralar (and high elves, maybe, in the future) are different from the nightborne in the sense that they are pariahs and exiles without their own land. They tried to find sources of power and failed, and they come to the night elves humbled. They literally accepted be integrated into the darnassian society, and they did so out of necessity.

Yes, the kaldorei have accepted the arcane practices back, but their culture does not revolve around it. It's a very different setup from nightborne and blood elves, which embrace the arcane and use it regularly in their daily lives. Just because Darnassus allows mages now does not mean the night elves do not keep careful watch over them.

Suramar, in contrast, is a sovereign nation, just as is Silvermoon. And, as a nation, still powerful and proud, they can choose their allies not out of necessity, but affinity. Thus, allying themselves with the blood elves makes a lot more sense than trying to reconcile with the Kaldorei, which they see as primitive (and who, in turn, do not trust them).

I also need to point out that Valewalker Farondin is not a druid. His help with the Arcan'dor does not mean the nightborne owe anything to the darnassian night elves (besides gratitude for helping freeing Suramar, of course, but in that case the blood elves were just as helpful).

do you really want darky elves on the horde though? part of me can't help but feel they should all just stay on the alliance. Blood elves should be the only elves on the horde, and they don't really have the connection to the nightborne the night elves have, it's not like naga-elves who if a reality, would have a real connection to the blood elves because of TFT/TBC and Zin'Azshari where they both come from. Nightborne are Suramar elves, where most of the night elves come from. All nightborne have in common with nightborne is that they are magic users and elves, night elves still have links to their past, namely many of the ones alive lived in it, blood elves have long since separated from that ast, even if kaldorei culture has changed we must remember their a Kaldorei like the highborne and moonguard who haven't, and the nightborne are part of the ancient world, the blood elves the human/orc modern world.

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Honestly I think you may be right. Unless they eventually do add subraces as a thing like pretty much everyone wants they will be forgotten like every other race we have came across and helped out. With at most maybe one or two of the race showing up in another expansions or in the books.

sadly yes, already they have almost zero role in the Argus trip, it's like Silgryn is just there to kepe a hope barely alive. You'd have expected Thalyssra to have been right alongside there with a night elf contingency similar to how Tyrande and Malfurion continued playing a role in TFT.. but, 7.3 is all about humans and draenei, and Alleria and Illidan.

[DeicideUH]

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It's weird how all of you want "unity" of the elves while ignoring that the elves themselves do not want it. Thalassian and Darnassian elves see the world in very different ways, the Suramar elves' vision is more akin the blood elves'. That's pretty much spilled in-game with all the gossip and interactions between them.

In essence, you are asking me to ignore their cultures and focus on their appearance. As if being of the same color skin was more important than having cultural affinities.

Yes, the darnassian elves accepted the shen'dralar in their midst, but that does not mean the old highborne traditions were accepted back in Darnassus. Night elves are still ruled by priests and druids, their new arcanists are mundane citizens in the darnassian order, rather than the highest members of their society. The darnassian "Highborne" are such only in name; in practice they were turned into common folk. To the night elves, the term "highborne" is a remnant of a past they are ashamed of.

Darnassian night elves do not wish to return to the old ways. They'll accept highborne that subject themselves to their new druid/priest-ruled traditions. They see arcane magic as useful but dangerous, not as the ultimate expression of power and will.

This is completely different from what we see in both Quel'thalas and Suramar, in which we have a ruling class of nobles and great prestige given to arcanists. To both thalassian and suramari (?) elves, "highborne" is what they are proud of being.

That does not mean the nightborne have any ill feelings towards night elves. But why would the nightborne choose to ally themselves with these "primitive" and "untrusting" night elves, if the blood elves are more like them and way more welcoming?

[Beloren]

It's weird how all of you want "unity" of the elves while ignoring that the elves themselves do not want it. Thalassian and Darnassian elves see the world in very different ways, the Suramar elves' vision is more akin the blood elves'. That's pretty much spilled in-game with all the gossip and interactions between them.

actually Suramar elves' vision is more akin to redeemed highborne and the blood elf affinity is via the highborne night elf ancestory of the blood elves. remember it's not night elven ancestory for the nightborne they are literally the same night elves with a slightly modified appearance.

unity would be nice, I would think that the nightborne would love to reconnect with their people no? They revere the shit out of their Kaldorei past, especially the nigh elves whom they thought all died trying to save he world from the demons, - turns out they survived and won the fight, but the suramar didn't know that till the shield came down. I think the Nightborne under Thalyssra would definitely want a united elven front, I think she would desire to have the high/blood elves be a part of it if possible too, I don't think the elves view the different sub-groups as being an alien species or a different racve, - the nightborne call both the high elves and blood elves highborne, they also call the shen'dralar highborne. Their angst against the highborne is expressed against the whole group and doesn't distinguish between high elf, blood elf or shen'dralar. Saying that recently though the blood elves who don't like the night elves becvause of the exile (that is not the reason the night elves don't like the blood elves at first anyway, at first the reason was just because they were highborne), but when the blood elves start actualy killing night elves i think it's opened the conflict considerably whereas we've seen night elf/high elf relations improve - given b some high elves working with the night elves in Stonetalon mountain, Auberdine/Darnassus and a couple of other places.

Meanwhile it's clear neither the highborne from shen'dralar nor the nightborne have any beef with the blood/high elves and it seems that the blood /high elves also readily accept them too. The blood elves haven't shown any of the disdain for the broken isle night elves either, it's just the Kalimdor ones they seem to hate with a passion.

the fact that they get on well with the nightborne/highborne and broken isle night elves i think can be an open back door to some sort of peace movement.

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i would prefer Eredar on the horde instead of nightborne, i'd even be okay with the alliance getting high elves if we could get Eredar

[DeicideUH]

actually Suramar elves' vision is more akin to redeemed highborne and the blood elf affinity is via the highborne night elf ancestory of the blood elves. remember it's not night elven ancestory for the nightborne they are literally the same night elves with a slightly modified appearance.

Technically, both Sin' and Shal'dorei are just highborne night elves with modified appearance. One has just deeper changes than the other.

unity would be nice, I would think that the nightborne would love to reconnect with their people no?

Everyone wants unity, but each one wants unity in its own terms. It's hard to find the middle ground because no one wants to sacrifice what they think is the core of their culture.

Comparing all elf races, the Kaldorei are the ones with the most differences towards all the others. Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are closer to each other. Quel'dorei (and Shen'dralar) may flock to the Kaldorei more due to necessity than affinity. Neither the nightborne nor blood elves have such necessity.

I don't think the elves view the different sub-groups as being an alien species or a different racve, - the nightborne call both the high elves and blood elves highborne, they also call the shen'dralar highborne.

All elves see all others are lost brothers, just misguided. Problem is in agreeing and making concessions to each other.

Meanwhile it's clear neither the highborne from shen'dralar nor the nightborne have any beef with the blood/high elves and it seems that the blood /high elves also readily accept them too.

I'd really like to know the opinions of high elves and nightborne about each other. Despite Vereesa being there in the Suramar campaign, neither her elves nor the nightborne talk about each other. I assume the high elves, at that point, have a great kinship with the nightfallen, as they are both exiles and addicted to magic. However, once the nightborne start getting friendly with the blood elves, the high elves may feel betrayed.

The blood elves haven't shown any of the disdain for the broken isle night elves either, it's just the Kalimdor ones they seem to hate with a passion.

If you are talking about Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne, all of them are more like the Sin'dorei than the kaldorei.

It would be interesting to know that the Shen'dralar and Sin'dorei think of each other, there was never direct interaction with each other. Maybe the Horde attacking Shen'dralar apprentices in Azshara with blood elf help may have soured their relations, or maybe the SHen'dralar, after trying and failing to suck magic off a demon, may have thought that allying with the Sin'dorei would just be a repeated mistake. Dunno, just theorizing here.

the fact that they get on well with the nightborne/highborne and broken isle night elves i think can be an open back door to some sort of peace movement.

I think we must not confuse peace with friendship. We can all be peaceful and civil despite not liking one another. I don't see reason for the night elves and nightborne to be enemies. The question is: knowing the night elves and blood elves are antagonists of each other, the nightborne would need to make a choice of who to approach, and I think they will choose the ones they feel more kinship with.

[Mace]

It's weird how all of you want "unity" of the elves while ignoring that the elves themselves do not want it. Thalassian and Darnassian elves see the world in very different ways, the Suramar elves' vision is more akin the blood elves'. That's pretty much spilled in-game with all the gossip and interactions between them.

In essence, you are asking me to ignore their cultures and focus on their appearance. As if being of the same color skin was more important than having cultural affinities.

Yes, the darnassian elves accepted the shen'dralar in their midst, but that does not mean the old highborne traditions were accepted back in Darnassus. Night elves are still ruled by priests and druids, their new arcanists are mundane citizens in the darnassian order, rather than the highest members of their society. The darnassian "Highborne" are such only in name; in practice they were turned into common folk. To the night elves, the term "highborne" is a remnant of a past they are ashamed of.

Darnassian night elves do not wish to return to the old ways. They'll accept highborne that subject themselves to their new druid/priest-ruled traditions. They see arcane magic as useful but dangerous, not as the ultimate expression of power and will.

This is completely different from what we see in both Quel'thalas and Suramar, in which we have a ruling class of nobles and great prestige given to arcanists. To both thalassian and suramari (?) elves, "highborne" is what they are proud of being.

That does not mean the nightborne have any ill feelings towards night elves. But why would the nightborne choose to ally themselves with these "primitive" and "untrusting" night elves, if the blood elves are more like them and way more welcoming?

you seem to be transferring blood elf feelings about the night elves to the nightborne. you have to re-oreintate your thinking there. Nightborne are night elves, this is not a generation or several generations later on of a group that wanted nothing to do with the kaldorei anymore and hate them. These are arrogant, distrusting night elves that think themselves superior and their empire , the kaldorei empire the best thing in the world.

The quests also shows that they venerate the shit out of their kaldorei roots, its what has made them themselves. "our noble and graceful heritage" "only we nightborne come from a lineage of unmatched grace and intellect" Valtrois comments in tel'anor as she tasks you to properly show respect by helping the ancestors and those who fell in defense of Suramar to gain some rest. Thaedris Feathermoon acknowledges that all those who fought the legion and remained outside the city when the shield went up are greatly venerated by their people - this would include Tyrande and all the Suramar night elves that pressed forward to fight Azshara and stop the legion, these guys defended their home city. And while Tyrande is cross with the nightborne, her own people btw, for not choosing to join them then, there is no indication that that is how every night elf feels and every indication that the nightborne feel the opposite way.

Sure they seem disappointed at the seemingly primitve ways of the night elves, but you shouldn't draw too much from Elisande's speech, because not once do you see Silgryn or Victoire, talk down the night elves about it, and i think you can see great respect there because if you look at the other facts. The nightborne are been trained for war by the night elves, Tyrande is issuing instruction and helping htem learn war stratgy by taking lessons from Ravencrest in Black Rook hold (the quest you are sent to get supplies and battle strategy books). The night elves may be wielding what seems primitive and possibly disappointing to the nightborne, but they don't look down on them. Remember their kin achieved the impossible the thing Elisande and all those in the city felt was a lost cause and impossible task which is why they didn't follow them to Zin'Azshari. Their kin defeated the Queen and the legion, not just once but twice. Furthermore these "primitives" are the ones that engineer their cure from the nightwell curse.

Do you not think in time the nightborne would quickly find out exactly the situation with the night elves? That they haven't devolved or any such nonsense, but adopted a different lifestyle intetnionally to help protect the world, an act that kept the legion at bay for nearly 10k years, and inf act it's that sacrifice that allowed the nightborne to continue living in their sanctuayry prison with unlimited magic for so long. This would cause awe rather than disdain in stark contrast to how the blood elves feel. Remember blood elf view of the night elves soured because of the exile. The nightborne have no such thing forcing them to think badly of these guys who have defeated the legion twice, something ultimateily them with all their advanced magic couldn't do and shamefully instead chose to join instead of fight. Finding out night elves with far less or supposedly inferior magic were the heart of two defeats of the legion and the reason they raen't in a magical society was an selfless act of duty that for a night elf, only a nightborne would understand the sacrifice giving up the arcane is to a night elf.

This perspective the blood elf won't have, and would provide the lore and the playerbase with a refreshing other side/look to the story and the night elves, one that is for a change not constantly hating on or trashing the night elves. This has far more potential for a richer story, richer and more meaningful engagement than fobbing off the nightborne to the blood elves. Lets not forget the reunion story too, the night elven people who would still have family thought long gone amongst the nightborne and vice versa. Both groups thinking the other dead. Shandris might have her parents or some family member alive, she is from the region too. The night elf connection makes for a far more compelling and engaging story I feel with a chance for a different perspetive and growth to for a very stagnant night elf group that has been too dominated by only Malfurion/Tyrande and illidan. It's a great chance and time to see many more facets and more depth to them that the nightborne bring about their society and their past and possible future.

ANd i don't think any nightborne would confuse the night elven leader's caution for untrusting. The nightborne who so far have thought themselves doing a pretty good job at fighting the legion find themselves in the presence of one who's relentelss conviction carried her through 2 victories against the very legion Thalyssra's order initially chose to hide in a bubble from. The onus is now on Thalyssra to prove to the High Priestess that the nightborne are worth saving and won't turn into another Azshara highborne fiasco, but are committed to following this through to the end, because Tyrande was there the first time when they went some of the way fighting the demons and closing the Cathedral's portal, and halting an invasion that would have flanked RAvencrest's army, but those that worked the magic didn't go further, abandoning the rest of the fight to protect their arses.

Its is not the night elves that are untrusting here at all, but rather the nightborne that needed to prove themselves, and we find that in the end the nightborne pass with flying colours, but Tyrande does trust them anyway, so she is cautious not untrsuting, because you don't see her wait till the end before helping, she expresses her annoyance at how they left things the first time round but she does help them, she does send her sentinels in, she does assit them with training and she does send her forces to march with them to save her city of birth, that is not untrusting.

People are so focused on the blood elf point of view they don't seem to be able to see so much detail and nuance from the night elf side, there is much there, but all it seems people want to talk about is how the blood elves relate to the nightborne when there is so much depth in their night elven connection. These are night elves still in Kaldorei empire mindset who's bodies have just altered a little. My point is they are empire night elf minded the only thing that's really changed about them is their appearance, and lets not forget it's not a big change, they're skinnier and darker - they haven't gaind 50 feet, 4 ears and 3 new limbs, - these are kaldorei empire elves. The nightborne, even more so than the shen'dralar highborne are kaldorei empire night elves still in empire mode/mindset

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Technically, both Sin' and Shal'dorei are just highborne night elves with modified appearance. One has just deeper changes than the other.

Everyone wants unity, but each one wants unity in its own terms. It's hard to find the middle ground because no one wants to sacrifice what they think is the core of their culture.

Comparing all elf races, the Kaldorei are the ones with the most differences towards all the others. Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are closer to each other. Quel'dorei (and Shen'dralar) may flock to the Kaldorei more due to necessity than affinity. Neither the nightborne nor blood elves have such necessity.

All you have said is correct, but I feel it would be a mistake to think because the shal'dorei don't have the same necessity the shen'dralar had to ally with the Hyjal Kaldorei somehow means they wouldn't want to, and would prefer the blood elves. Remember they have nothing to gain from the blood elves having greatly surpassed them in magic anyway, and they don't need to have a group similar to them cos they already have a home and a base, they are not exiled, but if there was an exiled group, they may have a preference for the high elves. Saying that remember the kaldorei have the shen'dralar and Dire Maul too, so if it is like minds or similarity they are looking for, they have a group far closer to them in the shen'dralar than blood elves are. And while the kaldorei may have a greatly different culture, you can't ignore the fact that many of them are the same people who use to live in Suramar and fought with the ones who remained and transitioned to nightborne. So their is a personal element there too despite a different culture.

Furthermore, not only do they have likemindedness in the night elf group via the shen'dralar highborne, they also have far greater opportunty to learn new magics and broaden their scope by druidc magic, which was what was employed successfully to stop the legion which the nightborne for all their magical prowress initially bent over too.. so i don't think they would be as disdainful of it as the blood elves are - remember the blood elf contempt is coloured by the exile humiliation, the nightborne have no such cause to be contemptuous of the night elves especially when they discover the extent of druidic mastery and how successful such has faired in a real batlte against formidable foes like the legion. This is an avenue based on the results that nightborne who are similar to High Botanist Tel'arn for example would be far more interested in a night elf connection. The other thing, the divine they could learn of either blood elves or night elves, but seeing how they miss the glory of the prayers to Elune when the empire was whole and strong and seeing how formidable and full of Elune the high priestess is, with them still fascinated with the moon and stars they can now see for real again after 10k years, it would be very odd for them to be more interested in a the light apart from Elune rather than the light with Elune. Especially since the Goddess via her high priestess and her order came to help them despite them being without worship for 10k years.

My point is there is more on offer and more things going on with night elves than with the blood elves. If blizzard wanted a blood elf match with the new elves, they'd be choosing a group steeped in night elf lore and connected to night elves to do it - a group from Suramar the place the majority of alliance night elves come from including Tryande, Illidan and Malfruion, the Shadowsongs, Shandris and every wotA hero in the night elf group, - a better option as OP said for bonding with the blood elves would be a naga elf sub-race, becaue the naga do have that TFT connection with the blood elves and the Zin'Azsahri one @EnigmAddict correctly points out.

[In Ogres We Trust]

As a playable race, neutrality would fit, but then again, neutrality fits all of the elven races.

[DeicideUH]

ySure they seem disappointed at the seemingly primitve ways of the night elves, but you shouldn't draw too much from Elisande's speech, because not once do you see Silgryn or Victoire, talk down the night elves about it, and i think you can see great respect there because if you look at the other facts.

Actually, you do. They have gossip about the night elves and the blood elves. I don't know if they are still available once you advance enough in the Suramar campaign, or if the NPCs phase out and can't be interacted anymore, but if you talk to them in the night/blood/high elf camp in front of Suramar, they have gossip about both blood and night elves. I remember one of Silgryn's comments is that he's baffled as to how primitive the Kaldorei have become, and is surprised that they still use bows.

The nightborne are been trained for war by the night elves, Tyrande is issuing instruction and helping htem learn war stratgy by taking lessons from Ravencrest in Black Rook hold (the quest you are sent to get supplies and battle strategy books). The night elves may be wielding what seems primitive and possibly disappointing to the nightborne, but they don't look down on them. Remember their kin achieved the impossible the thing Elisande and all those in the city felt was a lost cause and impossible task which is why they didn't follow them to Zin'Azshari. Their kin defeated the Queen and the legion, not just once but twice. Furthermore these "primitives" are the ones that engineer their cure from the nightwell curse.

You are confusing enmity with dislike. Between kaldorei and sin'dorei, the nightborne feel more affinity with the later. It's not that they hate the night elves. It's just that they like the blood elves more. Given the choice between one or another, it's obvious who they would turn to.

---too long, Executus---

You talk all the time about how nightborne and night elves are alike while the only thing you can show as proof is their physical similarity. Culture-wise, they are nothing alike. Suramar has been stuck in time for 10,000 years, while the night elves not only changed radically their culture and evolved in their new path all this time, but also shun their past.

Again, it's not a matter of hate, but of affinity. The shal'dorei will choose the blood elves not because they hate the night elves, but because they feel the sin'dorei are closer to their own culture.

Its is not the night elves that are untrusting here at all, but rather the nightborne that needed to prove themselves, and we find that in the end the nightborne pass with flying colours

Here's the difference: Tyrande made the nightborne need to prove themselves. Liadrin and Rommath offered help out of empathy for their plight. It does not matter if the nightborne passed the test, they now can choose who to ally with. Who would the shal'dorei trust more: the ones that offered help with open arms, or the ones that didn't trust them until the very end?

[Deleted]

Just throwing this out there but I'm 95% sure they won't be making more playable elf races since we have 1 for each faction already.

[Mace]

i would prefer Eredar on the horde instead of nightborne, i'd even be okay with the alliance getting high elves if we could get Eredar

why? just why? I think horde players would want racial groups not already part of the alliance to come their way, blood elves were enough, they don't really need nightborne, eredar or vrykul, give them their own group, the naga-elf sub group would work, as would naga, or ethereals, not to mention Ogres. Kvaldir would work too because of the undead connection and Aldraachi or Nethrazim - none of these groups have been with the alliance in any shape or form. and each are quite impressive in their own ways, - naga/naga-elf sub group or Ethereals are nothing to scorn against, neither are Aldraachi if you read the demon hunter Vengeance artifact weapon lore - these are groups as formidable as the nightborne or draenei. A naga race or naga-elf sub-race can provide as much magical upgrade to the blood elves as nightborne/highborne would to the alliance and have more in common with them than they do the nightborne. Aldraachi, Nathrazim or Ethereals aare just as formidable a group any can be just as impressive as the Draenei, and trust me when blizzard showcase them, they'd be badass.

you don't need to have nightborne or eredar hanging out on the horde. I'm not sure you guys even want them.

[Tyrathius]

I could see them being added as a subrace for Night Elves if subraces ever become a thing. Otherwise, they'll just be forgotten about once Legion is over.

I don't think they're at all likely to join the Horde.

[Beloren]

Just throwing this out there but I'm 95% sure they won't be making more playable elf races since we have 1 for each faction already.

they would or could be as sub-races though, so don't rule it out. Besides, we have 3 playable human races already so i woudln't entirely rule them out to come in as a full race either

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I could see them being added as a subrace for Night Elves if subraces ever become a thing. Otherwise, they'll just be forgotten about once Legion is over.

I don't think they're at all likely to join the Horde.

yeah i see that too. But i dunno, i'm not entirely opposed to them being with the horde, that could be nice even though i think they belong and fit better in the night world and part of the night elf world story rather than yanked into the blood elf world. Saying that a small group that doesn't really define the whole nightborne people could work on the horde as an option. While the main group remains in the night world with their own unique sub-world /alternative world, a small group could hang out with the blood elves and be okay as long as they don't become a driving force of lore for nightborne instead of the main nightborne group 0 that could work.

I'm a bit torn between my jealousy for the blood elves to be the only elf group in the horde village and my curiosity. I do realize that naga-elf group would also be another elf group, but they feel more connected to blood elves than nightborne do, that is if they ever become a thing.

[Mace]

I could see them being added as a subrace for Night Elves if subraces ever become a thing. Otherwise, they'll just be forgotten about once Legion is over.

I don't think they're at all likely to join the Horde.

i think generally by how the lore and initial presntation and direction point, they are definitely a night elf thing, however it is still possible they could be the night elf option on the horde side, because if you really think of them as night elves, then being on the horde is not detrimental to t he night elf umbrella race, it's just detrimental to the night elves on the alliance, because they are the night elf version on the horde and afterall it's still night elves who choose to align differently, it might be easier if they also pull along the moonguard and broken isle night elves to join with the horde and only make the nightborne model version playable while the kaldorei model version remains only playable on the alliance but exists on the horde reminding people that nightborne is the night elf option on the horde.

that way people may find it aceptable that high elves are available on the alliance. In this model, the nightborne won't be going to silvermoon at all, it's a day city, different culture (@decideUH just because BElf culture is also an arcane culture derived from the kaldorei highborne culture doens't make it the same as nightborne, it is still a different culture that is night elven (kaldoeri empire night elven, but night elven all the same - it is night elven arcane culture). The nightborne will continue in their kaldorei empire ways in their own city and in their own regions of the broken isles, they will be a family with the other night elves on the isle doing their own night elf thing different from the Kalimdor alliance night elf group. They'll just host the horde banners instead.

That is an option, but it will kill the fairy tale of the night elves somehow regaining a complete society much sooner as the nightborne would have signifciantly boosted the arcane wing back to the full wonder of pre-sundering kaldorei empire to add to the very highly developed druidic wing and the divine Mother moon Elune 3rd of the tripod. The best fantasy for them would have them coming together for the first time as whole having all the elemnts of magic once again, and just in time to face the biggest threat to both them and the world, Queen Azshara who wants her empire back and wants to bring the world into subjugation to her new masters and ultimately herself. With the legion defeated, this would be the first time we see the druids, the priesthood and the nightborne magic users unite together in battle and watch them continue their separate lives and causes in thier own orders once its done. It would be like the first truly bright light for the night elven people since they were introduced, - let's not forget they still have not got their recovery story yet. and taking nightborne over to the horde as a whole will wreck that. We've just seen night elves lose constantly since WC3 - even though they won the war against the legion then, they lost so much and continued losing, they've been losing ever since they introduced them with the story of having lost their empire at the first invasion. So maybe we might have them for a change make a significant gain with their arcane side fully restored to them. That's my thinking anyway.

[Deleted]

they would or could be as sub-races though, so don't rule it out. Besides, we have 3 playable human races already so i woudln't entirely rule them out to come in as a full race either

Forsaken and Worgen aren't human. Completely different models compared to how similar the elf models are and would be.

[In Ogres We Trust]

I don't see them as a sub-race option for the Night Elves. However, in order for them to become playable, either they or the Blood Elves would have to go neutral.

[Beloren]

I don't see them as a sub-race option for the Night Elves. However, in order for them to become playable, either they or the Blood Elves would have to go neutral.

I don't understand your first statement, how or why don't you see them as a sub-race for the night elves? They are obviously a night elf sub race that will either be playable on the horde or join it or on the alliance or both or neither - Yes, it is not beyond the realm of possibility to have a night elf sub race playable on the horde, or a blood elf one playable on the alliance or a draenei one playable on the horde. Personally, I'd prefer a draenei one playable on the horde to be frank, more interesting and I think more beneficial to the blood elves.

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Forsaken and Worgen aren't human. Completely different models compared to how similar the elf models are and would be.

oh really? forsaken are undead humans, and worgen are humans that transform into wolf men and back again. Don't rule out forsaken vampires either coming soon. Just because different models are employed doesn't make them non-human. Unique models were a thing they did per faction/race to make it easier in pvp.. that is before Pandaren and same side BGs became a thing. Now I don't think anyone even cares, but I think they'll still do them.

if nightborne become available on both facitons, they'd probably have the alliance ones have night elf ears and use the arcan'dor fruit as the lore reason for that, and the horde ones have the upturned tipped ears most nightborne have.. it could either be the arcan'dor fixing part of the twisting the nightwell curse caused or they could say once they started transitioning to nightfallen, even though the aracan'dor restored them, the uptruend ears, a symbol of the curse were not restored. So only those that never transitioned like the exile group Mace and I were discussing who could potentially join the horde have upturned ears.

It's really just a mechanism to bring some distinction between the same race on either faction, just like high elves would have blue eyes and blood elves green. Even though in lore both sides have both colours, it's just what's dominant, likewise in Suramar you see some nightborne have night elven ears anyway, originally all the females had night elven ears and the males had the weird uptruend ears, not even sure why they bothered changing it.

[Mace]

they will be just another faction that will disappear next expansion

i'm pretty sure Afrisiabi said we haven't seen the last from the nightborne when asked about future expansions. They'll have to be involved with the Queen Azshara plot. All the Suramar lot - whether Tyrande's group or Elisande's group fought her and blame her for the whole mess Azeroth is in, so it would weird not see them bringing everything they've got to the table to take her down, including firing up the nightwell again.

[ravenmoon]

Fantasy and desires aside, blizzard have to seriously think on two fronts whether its a good idea for the nightborne to be on the horde and for the night elves not to have them on their side.

1. Horde: Biggest danger is further erosion of identity. Blood elves, as i've heard from many a horde and blood elf player is all the elf they want or need on the horde. The player population is so huge, they are eroding the horde identity. Furthermore, all the recent additions to the horde (pandaren, blood elves even to a lesser extent hi-tech goblins) have had a rather alliancey orientation to them - altho goblin did feel horde, Blood elves and Pandas did not. We are so losing that original horde feel, the tribal identity, band of misfits, and while identities evolve, the core of the horde has always and should be Orc/troll/tauren like people. Nice to have exceptions like the blood elves, and some more pure hearted,souls/groups, or elven types - but not too much, and Thalyssra and the nightborne will definitely not help that certainly when groups like Zandalari can offer higher intellect/civilization to the horde in a more traditional horde essence way.

Adding nightborne achieves nothing to the horde, everything they provide the horde and the blood elves already got. Beautiful elven advanced city? check. Sophisticated arcane mastery? check. Graceful beautiful elven long-eared forms ? check. Sure Suramar might be nicer than silvermoon, and the nightborne more advanced, although the blood elves are prettier. They really add nothing meaningful to the horde that the blood elves don't already give and they add nothing meaningful to the blood elves, in fact they're kinda opposite in theme and contrast, having the night and moon/star night elven thing to them, as opposed to the sun and daylight to them

2. Night elves and alliance. The night elves certainly need this part of their past associated with them. They've looked stale, boring and monotonous, and their's is supposed to be a whole world, not to mention you remove the fantasy of them ever regaining all the good and great things they lost in the sundering, aren't the best stories the ones that take you through the losses and the incredible journey of how your people showed virtue, worthiness and got rewarded by gaining more than they lost?

Night elves are missing a huge chunk of their arcane heritage and mastery the nightborne properly provide, they are the ones in need of the kaldorei empire level of magic and the higher end of civilization they once had. Whiles night elves don't need to change at all, this option needs to be available in their world. It's nice to have an option for those who like night elves to enjoy the high magic/high civilzation aspect of their race, while those who prefer the tranquil nature open forests will continue to have that in the druids, and those who like the amazon warrior (Diana Wonder Woman) huntress/high priestess side to them have that available.

I feel it brings back a much needed classic magic elven theme to the dark elf group, which should be available to them and they obviously don't have. Not to mention the nightborne who don't have anything to learn from the blood elves because they outstrip them in all things arcane and magic, would be fascinated by the depth and development of nature in the night elves which ofc has reached a level of sophistication far beyond what it was in the days of the kaldorei empire. Not to mention it is part of this power that brought the nightborne healing. Doesn't mean they'd all convert to it, but there would definitely be those who want to maser it and learn it, as well as those who want to connect with their faith and priesthood after the traumatic events of legion and the high priestess herself returning. And night elves are lacking the grand elven advanced city, high arcane mastery that is part of their legacy and history, and now returned it should go to them not to the blood elves who already have something similar. I longed to see a pristine night elven city from the kaldorei empire return and I long to see a part of the night elf world having that alongside it.


What is clear is that the nightborne should play a major role in the night elven world alongisde the night elves, and they shouldn't have an emphatic or large role on the horde. The best way i feel to proceed with the nightborne is either one of two options.

1. Alliance only - with the night elven lore fully engaged
2. Alliance and horde, with a minor role not very emphasized role portrayed on the horde.