No flying on Argus - broken promise?

[Raelbo]

There were never any posts about removing flying befor Blizzard actually removed it on WoD.

That is simply not true. The flying/no flying debate had been going on for years before WoD. But it was a tweet by Ghostcrawler (back in December 2012) that really sparked what happened in WoD.

@Ghostcrawler Looking back to pre-BC, would you make the decision to add flying mounts again if you had the choice?

Greg Street‏ @OccupyGStreet
Replying to @TrygveSeim

.@TrygveSeim Personally, no, but they are pretty cool. Convenience is fun, but I don't like that they make the world so safe.

The difference is that prior to Blizzard's announcement that they planned to not release flying on Draenor at all, the debate had always operated on the assumption that flying was something that would be added at some point in the expansion. So typically the discussions were dominated by the anti-flying brigade, a small but vocal minority who made an emotive appeal to Blizzard supporting GC's view that flying was wrecking the game. Since the pro-flying camp never took the idea of flying being removed seriously, they didn't make too much of fuss, leading Blizzard to the conclusion that the general consensus among players was that the game would be better off without flying.

All that changed when in May 2015 Ion Hazzikostas had this to say in an interview with Polygon (Paragraph 4):

"Having looked at how flying has played out in the old world in the last couple of expansions, we realized that while we were doing it out of this ingrained habit after we introduced flying in The Burning Crusade, it actually detracted from gameplay in a whole lot of ways," Hazzikostas explains. "While there was certainly convenience in being able to completely explore the world in three dimensions, that also came at the expense of gameplay like targeted exploration, like trying to figure out what's in that cave on top of a hill and how do I get up there."

"The world feels larger, feels more dangerous...There's more room for exploration, for secrets, for discovery and overall immersion in the world. At this point, we feel that outdoor gameplay in World of Warcraft is ultimately better without flying. We're not going to be reintroducing the ability to fly in Draenor, and that's kind of where we're at going forward."

This statement changed the face of the debate. Suddenly everyone who was pro-flying (the vast majority) realised that their silence up to this point, based on the assumption of sanity, had led Blizzard to assume that the voice of the anti-flying minority, being the only voice in the debate, represented the view of the majority. In essence Blizzard went full retard, validated by small but vocal minority.

The backlash was immediate, and it took Blizzard less than 3 weeks to do a complete turn around and decide to go ahead with flying.

This is a problem Blizzard created themselves. They took something that was not an issue and made an issue out of it. It's stupid, plain and simple.

I think if you follow the history of what actually happened, you'll find that vitriolic narrative on the topic is a bit myopic.

Maybe to some people who like to judge without really applying any thought it seems stupid. And while I can agree that their conclusion was catastrophically flawed, you can't really blame their thinking. I reckon Ion was shocked to see the backlash when he announced that there would be no flying on Draenor because that response contrary to everything that had been said on the topic by the players. Their error wasn't that they didn't understand what the players were saying, it's that they didn't realise that the players who were speaking were not representative of the playerbase at large.

Which is why I have such an issue with idiots who spout stupid stuff on forums and feel that there is merit in rebutting them. Because if you don't, it creates the illusion that those idiots represent the way the players are thinking and feeling, which leads to retarded decisions like no flying ever.

To be fair, where I can fault Blizzard is for remaining somewhat stubborn on the issue of flying. They know that no flying is hugely unpopular and as such won't make the same mistake of withholding it indefinetly, but they still hold to the belief that flying is bad. Allowing us to fly after new content has been out for a while seems like something they allow us grudgingly. What they fail to realise though is that while allowing flying for new content does detract from game (and should therefore be withheld from new content), at some point it actually becomes good for the game because the value of keeping players grounded is something that diminishes rapidly the more time the player spends in that content.

[Aggrophobic]

There were just not constantly bumped by the same 8-10 people like the pro-flying people on the official boards. We've been saying for ages that flight killed world PVP and flying has too many advantages over ground travel for ages though.

Really, never once saw a post about it.
World PvP was dead long befor flying was added to the game.

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And this is the thing Argus is just another Isle of Thunder, Isle of Giants, Timeless Isle in the no flying thing and yet people are bitching about having one patch area be no flying..

Thin with Argus is that it's designed specifically to be annoying and boring. Previous zones were not.

[Raelbo]

There were just not constantly bumped by the same 8-10 people like the pro-flying people on the official boards. We've been saying for ages that flight killed world PVP and flying has too many advantages over ground travel for ages though.

Exactly. These ridiculous anti-flying nonsense threads, bumped by the same 8-10 people are what caused the ruckus in the first place. And that world PVP argument is one of the worst cases of lack of critical thinking I have ever witnessed on the forums. It's like arguing that women's rights ruined sex because now women are able to say no.

The ability to fly didn't kill world pvp. What killed world pvp is that most people don't like it. All that flying does is give people an option to exercise their preference to not engage in world pvp. Simple logic dictates that if players actually wanted to engage in world pvp they wouldn't be trying to use flying mounts to get away from it.

Flying is not, nor has it ever been "the problem". It's simply a solution to the actual problem.

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Thin with Argus is that it's designed specifically to be annoying and boring.

Please substantiate.

Fair enough, you find it annoying and boring. But that does not mean that it is so by intent. Nor does it make any sense whatsoever that this would be the case.

Blizzard do have a design intent, and having terrain that is difficult to traverse is part of that intent. Being constantly harrassed by the denizens is also part of the intent. These things are done by intent because that is consistent with the setting and the story: We are invading into the heartland of our sworn enemies, a land which is a literal hell. I would argue that "annoying" is almost mandatory to achieve a sense of the atmosphere. But in that case, if it is too annoying, then the argument should be that they chose a bad setting for the game.

Boring though? That is just asinine. It was designed to be opposite of boring. Maybe it landed up being boring for some players. I can accept that. But arguing that it is boring by intent? please.

[vipers]

Well, technically Molten Front in Cata.

its raid instance and not open zone

[Sanguinerd]

its raid instance and not open zone

It's quite literally a open quest zone dude.

[Deleted]

GW 2 doesn't have flying, it has gliding aka controlled falling.

Yeah, and that is, like, all there is there, totally I suppose truly devoted WoW-kids can't really avoid serious denial

[Donald Hellscream]

No I do not think Blizzard broke any promises.

[Perkunas]

Exactly. These ridiculous anti-flying nonsense threads, bumped by the same 8-10 people are what caused the ruckus in the first place. And that world PVP argument is one of the worst cases of lack of critical thinking I have ever witnessed on the forums. It's like arguing that women's rights ruined sex because now women are able to say no.

The anti-flying crowd didn't have the frequency of posts the the pro-flying guys did, mate. Flying is a safezone it allows you to remove yourself from the danger of other players killing you on a PVP server. Granted, it doesn't apply to PVE realms. My argument against flight is that it has all the advantages over and no drawbacks of ground travel. It's far faster and 100% safe. I would be all for flying if it were slower than a ground mount OR the skyboxes were filled to the brim with Kaliri-like enemies who were faster than you and that dismounted you and killed you.

The ability to fly didn't kill world pvp. What killed world pvp is that most people don't like it. All that flying does is give people an option to exercise their preference to not engage in world pvp. Simple logic dictates that if players actually wanted to engage in world pvp they wouldn't be trying to use flying mounts to get away from it.

Get off the PVP server. Giving anybody the ability to have a safety safe was not the smartest option

Flying is not, nor has it ever been "the problem". It's simply a solution to the actual problem.

For you, no. For people like myself and the devs, yes.

[Aggrophobic]

Exactly. These ridiculous anti-flying nonsense threads, bumped by the same 8-10 people are what caused the ruckus in the first place. And that world PVP argument is one of the worst cases of lack of critical thinking I have ever witnessed on the forums. It's like arguing that women's rights ruined sex because now women are able to say no.

The ability to fly didn't kill world pvp. What killed world pvp is that most people don't like it. All that flying does is give people an option to exercise their preference to not engage in world pvp. Simple logic dictates that if players actually wanted to engage in world pvp they wouldn't be trying to use flying mounts to get away from it.

Flying is not, nor has it ever been "the problem". It's simply a solution to the actual problem.

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Please substantiate.

Fair enough, you find it annoying and boring. But that does not mean that it is so by intent. Nor does it make any sense whatsoever that this would be the case. Do you even hear yourself?

Blizzard do have a design intent, and having terrain that is difficult to traverse is part of that intent. Being constantly harrassed by the denizens is also part of the intent. These things are done by intent because that is consistent with the setting and the story: We are invading into the heartland of our sworn enemies, a land which is a literal hell. I would argue that "annoying" is almost mandatory to achieve a sense of the atmosphere. But in that case, if it is too annoying, then the argument should be that they chose a bad setting for the game.

Boring though? That is just asinine. It was designed to be opposite of boring. Maybe it landed up being boring for some players. I can accept that. But arguing that it is boring by intent? please.

"having terrain that is difficult to traverse is part of that intent. Being constantly harrassed by the denizens..." - Yes, that is annoying. The idea behind that design is to annoy players.

[Polybius]

So what? Biggest reason for no flying - is the fact, that in year 2017 Blizzard still want to use obsolete teches of 95-98s - i.e. 2D billboards instead of real 3D environment? And after that they still call their game "MMO with open world"?

And after all that you insist on the impossible by making threads like these?

The people who don't want to bother with Everquest's old engine have already moved on.

[Hctaz]

Flying became a mistake when Blizzard told us to think it has been a mistake all along. That's the most crucial part in any flying conversation.

Because it wasn't an issue before WoD.

I mean it definitely was an issue before WoD or the people just hadn't realized it was one. There are plenty of people who are not that smart. They play the game just to have fun. They don't know why their "fun" is gone, they just assume Blizzard made a bad game. People who didn't realize that they preferred the game without flight suddenly got that thrown in their face in WoD. They realized "Oh man, this sense of a huge world is what I was missing out on. I love exploring on the ground!" and that sparked their interest in the removal or limitation of flying.

Many people had problems with flying in TBC and in Wrath. Maybe less so in TBC because many people were just freaking out it existed, but I knew plenty of people who hated the fact that Icecrown and Storm Peaks were both made for flying. The common complaints were how long it took you to climb up mountains in Storm Peaks (mountains that you HAD to climb to do the quests) and how empty and weak Icecrown felt as a final zone. It wasn't treacherous... Well... actually it was, but only if you were on the ground. In fact, they made it so treacherous that it was impossible to travel solely by ground. But that just ended up removing the actually feeling of it being threatening. Icecrown was the most disappointed I've ever been with a zone for those reasons, and many people I knew felt the same.

Flying in TBC was this special, bonus feature you could unlock when you saved up enough gold. It didn't travel any faster than your NORMAL (60%) ground mount either, unless you forked over the massive amount of gold required for epic flying. Then you really got going. But it was often slower to get from point A to point B on a flying mount unless flying gave you a huge advantage by either bypassing a major landmass (or lackthereof) or avoiding powerful elites. The flight speed was changed from regular ground mount speed (60%) to 150% speed either in Cata or late in Wrath. Epic flying was always 280%.

Now, the only reason people didn't vehemently complain about flying before WoD was because they didn't think they would ever convince Blizzard to remove this feature. There definitely were the occasional "Flying makes questing and zone exploration suck" and the "Flying ruined world PvP" posts, but the big push to remove flying came after Blizzard themselves openly admitted to wanting to do so anyway. That party then realized they DID have a power. Thus, the anti-flyers came out in full force.

[Raelbo]

"having terrain that is difficult to traverse is part of that intent. Being constantly harrassed by the denizens..." - Yes, that is annoying. The idea behind that design is to annoy players.

No, that's called a strawman. Being annoying may be an emergent property of following the design intent, but it is not the design intent in and of itself.

Also, once again, your reply is wholly inadequate. Not only do you ignore 90% of what I am saying, even the stuff you're responding to is done inadequately. You're just spouting conclusions. Maybe they all make sense in your mind, but unless you supply some backing and warrants to your assertions I am just going to assume that you have none, hence your nonsensical comments.

[Perkunas]

I mean it definitely was an issue before WoD or the people just hadn't realized it was one. There are plenty of people who are not that smart. They play the game just to have fun. They don't know why their "fun" is gone, they just assume Blizzard made a bad game. People who didn't realize that they preferred the game without flight suddenly got that thrown in their face in WoD. They realized "Oh man, this sense of a huge world is what I was missing out on. I love exploring on the ground!" and that sparked their interest in the removal or limitation of flying.

Many people had problems with flying in TBC and in Wrath. Maybe less so in TBC because many people were just freaking out it existed, but I knew plenty of people who hated the fact that Icecrown and Storm Peaks were both made for flying. The common complaints were how long it took you to climb up mountains in Storm Peaks (mountains that you HAD to climb to do the quests) and how empty and weak Icecrown felt as a final zone. It wasn't treacherous... Well... actually it was, but only if you were on the ground. In fact, they made it so treacherous that it was impossible to travel solely by ground. But that just ended up removing the actually feeling of it being threatening. Icecrown was the most disappointed I've ever been with a zone for those reasons, and many people I knew felt the same.

Flying in TBC was this special, bonus feature you could unlock when you saved up enough gold. It didn't travel any faster than your NORMAL (60%) ground mount either, unless you forked over the massive amount of gold required for epic flying. Then you really got going. But it was often slower to get from point A to point B on a flying mount unless flying gave you a huge advantage by either bypassing a major landmass (or lackthereof) or avoiding powerful elites. The flight speed was changed from regular ground mount speed (60%) to 150% speed either in Cata or late in Wrath. Epic flying was always 280%.

Now, the only reason people didn't vehemently complain about flying before WoD was because they didn't think they would ever convince Blizzard to remove this feature. There definitely were the occasional "Flying makes questing and zone exploration suck" and the "Flying ruined world PvP" posts, but the big push to remove flying came after Blizzard themselves openly admitted to wanting to do so anyway. That party then realized they DID have a power. Thus, the anti-flyers came out in full force.

Apt summary which will likely be disputed by people in denial.

[Aggrophobic]

No, that's called a strawman. Being annoying may be an emergent property of following the design intent, but it is not the design intent in and of itself.

Also, once again, your reply is wholly inadequate. Not only do you ignore 90% of what I am saying, even the stuff you're responding to is done inadequately. You're just spouting conclusions. Maybe they all make sense in your mind, but unless you supply some backing and warrants to your assertions I am just going to assume that you have none, hence your nonsensical comments.

I pretty much everything you say becuase most of it is nonsense.

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I mean it definitely was an issue before WoD or the people just hadn't realized it was one. There are plenty of people who are not that smart. They play the game just to have fun. They don't know why their "fun" is gone, they just assume Blizzard made a bad game. People who didn't realize that they preferred the game without flight suddenly got that thrown in their face in WoD. They realized "Oh man, this sense of a huge world is what I was missing out on. I love exploring on the ground!" and that sparked their interest in the removal or limitation of flying.

Many people had problems with flying in TBC and in Wrath. Maybe less so in TBC because many people were just freaking out it existed, but I knew plenty of people who hated the fact that Icecrown and Storm Peaks were both made for flying. The common complaints were how long it took you to climb up mountains in Storm Peaks (mountains that you HAD to climb to do the quests) and how empty and weak Icecrown felt as a final zone. It wasn't treacherous... Well... actually it was, but only if you were on the ground. In fact, they made it so treacherous that it was impossible to travel solely by ground. But that just ended up removing the actually feeling of it being threatening. Icecrown was the most disappointed I've ever been with a zone for those reasons, and many people I knew felt the same.

Flying in TBC was this special, bonus feature you could unlock when you saved up enough gold. It didn't travel any faster than your NORMAL (60%) ground mount either, unless you forked over the massive amount of gold required for epic flying. Then you really got going. But it was often slower to get from point A to point B on a flying mount unless flying gave you a huge advantage by either bypassing a major landmass (or lackthereof) or avoiding powerful elites. The flight speed was changed from regular ground mount speed (60%) to 150% speed either in Cata or late in Wrath. Epic flying was always 280%.

Now, the only reason people didn't vehemently complain about flying before WoD was because they didn't think they would ever convince Blizzard to remove this feature. There definitely were the occasional "Flying makes questing and zone exploration suck" and the "Flying ruined world PvP" posts, but the big push to remove flying came after Blizzard themselves openly admitted to wanting to do so anyway. That party then realized they DID have a power. Thus, the anti-flyers came out in full force.

That is complete bullshit. Flying was one of the best feature WoW had and a large reason why the game was so much better than the competitors.

[Perkunas]

That is complete bullshit. Flying was one of the best feature WoW had and a large reason why the game was so much better than the competitors.

The game was at 11 million subs in BC when the VAST MAJORITY of people DID NOT have epic flying many people never even got to cap in BC. Quit stating your opinion as fact.

[Aggrophobic]

The game was at 11 million subs in BC when the VAST MAJORITY of people DID NOT have epic flying many people never even got to cap in BC. Quit stating your opinion as fact.

Everyone could get flying back then and everyone sure had flying when the game reached its peak in Wrath.
It did drop more subs than ever in WoD when it was removed however.

[WowIsDead64]

Well if you aren't going to set foot on Argus then don't know why you bother playing then as Argus is not that bad.. But in the end don't come complaining of having nothing to do since you chose to not go to Argus..

For me single-use location, that doesn't have any replayability value for alts - isn't worth doing even once. I'm true RPG player. For me character progression - is biggest part of fun. And Blizzard try to pretend, that they have "infinite" content now, implemented via RNG, time-gating and grind, and that alt are no longer needed. And for me grind just for the sake of more grind - isn't fun content. Since viable enough progression on one character ends - I start to do the same content on other one. And greatest long term goal for me - not only to have everything, I can get on one character with one class and spec, but have everything on all classes and specs. For example game has lots of different gear - and I want them all. That's, where true fun is! But content should be replayable then. May be it's great to overcome difficulties and do hard content once, but...I will never do it again, if after doing it once it won't be made replayable enough.

[Hctaz]

Apt summary which will likely be disputed by people in denial.

I just try to think of the overall picture. This is what I've seen from my time talking to multiple people as well as just generally being active on forums since I started playing seriously in Wrath. I took that information and combined it with my own personal experiences. I met a lot of people who would tell me that Icecrown wasn't satisfying to them but they just "didn't know why," which is fine. Not many people care to think too hard about what it is that is unfun, you know? I didn't think about it too hard either. I just took it for what it was at face value. We had flying so we just.. had flying. It didn't become apparent to me until Cata that flying was awful. Completely ruined the zones and the leveling experience that expansion. I could not tell you how to navigate any of those zones on foot which is really sad. Hyjal was this zone that was IN THE GAME SINCE VANILLA (which means it was designed originally for flight only) and mostly was unaltered, yet I still couldn't navigate it via foot. I don't know where the zone connects to other zones. I think it connects to Winterspring, but I always just flew up the mountain from the Org side...

So... yeah. I dunno. I'm glad you think my post is relevant to the overall situation of flying.

Ooh im about to drop another truth bomb so get ready lol

[Perkunas]

Everyone could get flying back then and everyone sure had flying when the game reached its peak in Wrath.
It did drop more subs than ever in WoD when it was removed however.

The game only gained 1 million subs from the end of BC to the end of Wrath. The majority of the time the population stagnated as I showed with the graph earlier in the thread. The largest increase in subs was before flying to the point where the vast majority could not travel at 280% speed. So quit your bullshit and move on to an actual point.

[Raelbo]

There are plenty of people who are not that smart. They play the game just to have fun. They don't know why their "fun" is gone, they just assume Blizzard made a bad game. People who didn't realize that they preferred the game without flight suddenly got that thrown in their face in WoD. They realized "Oh man, this sense of a huge world is what I was missing out on. I love exploring on the ground!" and that sparked their interest in the removal or limitation of flying.

Absolutely. People look back at older content, remember it nostalgically how it was before they had flying and then falsely conclude that the introduction of flying was the problem.

I have had a different realisation. I too remember with nostalgia the first time my young Tauren bull ran from Mulgore to camp Taurajo. It was epic. It was amazing. And like you and all the other people whom you don't classify into your group of "people who are not that smart" I fully accept that flying that route just isn't the same.

But what kind of logic is it to assume that removing flying would make that trip awesome again? No, running from Mulgore to the ruins of Taurajo would not induce the same sense of epicness, not just because the terrain has changed, but because that which made it epic in the first place is gone: The sense of the unknown, of discovery, of seeing new things for the first time is what is missing. And you can't get that back. It's ridiculous to think that removing flying would fix it, when it actually has nothing to do with it. The experience is ruined with or without flying.

Fair enough, there is a strong argument to be had that withholding flying from new content helps people to have a similar experience. But that is a far cry from blaming flying for new content becoming stale. All content becomes stale after a while, and flying is important to ensure that we can skip it once that has happened.

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I pretty much everything you say becuase most of it is nonsense.

I'll take that as an admission that you concede the argument. Not that you ever bothered to construct one in the first place.