Marksmanship T21 4 Set Bonus

[Emerald Archer]

entirely true - MM will be great on the robot-boss (you need to burst a robot down every 2 minutes exactly), as you can easily have trueshot up for every burst phase with just boots as reduction. On the other hand, as mentioned, a fight like Shivarra council it'll suffer from not being able to do anything for 2 out of 3 waves of adds or so.

Mhmm, but the bonus is, on waves like that, mm can still do decent dmg with good rng, and compared to BMs aoe burst, it'd be atleast equal.

[Azzkikr]

It's like a 2-3% ST dps increase, really not that bad. Unless you have reasonably higher ilvl non-tier pieces, you'd still use it.

I wouldnt be surprised if they dont even have to be higher ilvl. 2%~ dps is so little that having the right secondary stats on two pieces can outweigh it. Going from 2p to 4p will net you atleast 1500+ of one of the two garbage secondary stats even on the normal gear, thats quite a lot.

The secondary stats sucks on most of the pieces. The chest is great obviously, but the hands and gloves have high haste (people will likely use legendary gloves for st anyways). Legs have high vers and the helm is a complete joke with haste/vers...

Some proper crit/mastery off-pieces, along with the chest/cloak will likely be the way to go. The 2p sucks as well though (apart from with sw), but no reason not to get it considering the chest is good and the cloak is acceptable.

[Emerald Archer]

I wouldnt be surprised if they dont even have to be higher ilvl. 2%~ dps is so little that having the right secondary stats on two pieces can outweigh it. Going from 2p to 4p will net you atleast 1500+ of one of the two garbage secondary stats even on the normal gear, thats quite a lot.

The secondary stats sucks on most of the pieces. The chest is great obviously, but the hands and gloves have high haste (people will likely use legendary gloves for st anyways). Legs have high vers and the helm is a complete joke with haste/vers...

Some proper crit/mastery off-pieces, along with the chest/cloak will likely be the way to go. The 2p sucks as well though (apart from with sw), but no reason not to get it considering the chest is good and the cloak is acceptable.

The 2p I don't know much on, but the extra focus gen is quite nice.

But you seem to have a lot of misconceptions, and a massive underestimation of 2% dps.

2% dps for geared players, who this stuff matters for, is atleast about 32k dps.

Going from WORST stat pants, to best stat pants, is about 3k extra dps, a 0.1% dps increase. So on 2 items, you're looking at 0.2-0.3% difference, FAR cry from 2%.

If we're running t21 4pc, we will likely be running t20 2pc. So legendary gloves won't matter, and even if they did, it wouldn't make a difference. You DO need a lot of ilvl before you find gear that beats the 2-3% dps increase the 4pc alone gives. If we were to use legendary gloves, it wouldn't be normal gear that had a chance to replace t21 4pc, it would be t20 2pc.

Helm- Crit>Mast
Shoulders- Mast>Vers
Cloak- Mast>Vers
Chest- Mast>Crit
Gloves- Haste>Mast
Pants- Vers>Crit

That's likely the tier you'd end up with, and by no means are any of those worst stats, haste is not a bad stat, haste is fine, crit and mastery are stronger for sure, but haste is still strong.

T20 2pc and 4pc are crazy good, and they're 5%, 2-3% isn't much worse, and you're heavily underestimating it.

[Dracodraco]

Mhmm, but the bonus is, on waves like that, mm can still do decent dmg with good rng, and compared to BMs aoe burst, it'd be atleast equal.

I'm guessing you haven't actually seen the boss. There's no potential for AOE on those "waves" - four different abilities, one spawns a bunch of adds you just dodge, one spawns 8 adds in an even spread (too far for most cleave - divine storm, thrash etc might be able to hit 2), and 2 abilities spawn 4x adds in opposite corners from each other, making it a pure single target burst scenario (you're likely going to divide the raid into 2x groups, so 2x adds to deal with for an individual).

Likewise, I've obviously not done much mythic testing, but outside of Eonar, the 6 bosses that I have tested (all but the 3 first) all are pure single target, or at best, has brief periods of 2-target cleave (like when a robot has spawned on Kin'G, or an add on Portal Keeper - while the imps are technically AOE, they fall over so easily that a single boomkin could handle them in a 15 man group, so spec'ing for that seems overkill).

As said though this isn't exactly a bad thing for MM - the sustained single target damage will be quite a bit higher than BM's, but with far fewer trueshots, and less potency in regards to the use of them (due to no AOE/cleave) is bad news for MM, while lots of high-priority "kill this add ASAP" singletarget is good news for BM's toolkit.

(Above points aside, I also have to chuckle a bit at you saying MM without trueshot can beat BM with cooldowns up on AOE burst. That depends entirely on the length of the "burst" - if we're talking 8-10 seconds I wouldn't be so sure, considering MM needs 2 globals for each marked shot, + a proc, while BM needs 1 global per stomp and will get atleast 3 off in that timeframe, but that's purely anecdotal).

I would really not dismiss either spec at this point. I think we'll see the same pattern as in Tomb though:

MM does more damage if played perfectly.

BM is just better at handling the raid mechanics and unforeseen circumstances / occurrences, making it the better progress spec for most hunters. BM also has the benefit of far more wiggle room than MM in terms of legendaries for survivability (prydaz is, despite me having a 920 convergence and every BM legendary, within 1% overall dps range of my current setup of bracers+boots, making it quite viable), more frequent immunities being a bit of a draw.

[Emerald Archer]

I'm guessing you haven't actually seen the boss. There's no potential for AOE on those "waves" - four different abilities, one spawns a bunch of adds you just dodge, one spawns 8 adds in an even spread (too far for most cleave - divine storm, thrash etc might be able to hit 2), and 2 abilities spawn 4x adds in opposite corners from each other, making it a pure single target burst scenario (you're likely going to divide the raid into 2x groups, so 2x adds to deal with for an individual).

Likewise, I've obviously not done much mythic testing, but outside of Eonar, the 6 bosses that I have tested (all but the 3 first) all are pure single target, or at best, has brief periods of 2-target cleave (like when a robot has spawned on Kin'G, or an add on Portal Keeper - while the imps are technically AOE, they fall over so easily that a single boomkin could handle them in a 15 man group, so spec'ing for that seems overkill).

As said though this isn't exactly a bad thing for MM - the sustained single target damage will be quite a bit higher than BM's, but with far fewer trueshots, and less potency in regards to the use of them (due to no AOE/cleave) is bad news for MM, while lots of high-priority "kill this add ASAP" singletarget is good news for BM's toolkit.

(Above points aside, I also have to chuckle a bit at you saying MM without trueshot can beat BM with cooldowns up on AOE burst. That depends entirely on the length of the "burst" - if we're talking 8-10 seconds I wouldn't be so sure, considering MM needs 2 globals for each marked shot, + a proc, while BM needs 1 global per stomp and will get atleast 3 off in that timeframe, but that's purely anecdotal).

I would really not dismiss either spec at this point. I think we'll see the same pattern as in Tomb though:

MM does more damage if played perfectly.

BM is just better at handling the raid mechanics and unforeseen circumstances / occurrences, making it the better progress spec for most hunters. BM also has the benefit of far more wiggle room than MM in terms of legendaries for survivability (prydaz is, despite me having a 920 convergence and every BM legendary, within 1% overall dps range of my current setup of bracers+boots, making it quite viable), more frequent immunities being a bit of a draw.

Nah you're right, I haven't looked up the bosses yet, not sure which are the important bosses, (so the ones deciding which spec I should play)

But what you're saying, sounds scarily good for SW :P Fingers crossed that isn't the case.

Pretty sure 3-4 marked shots beat 3-4 stomps, but I really can't say for sure.

Prydaz is a very good legendary for MM, and very easy to switch into, as it's quite a small dps downgrade (assuming you don't have trash boots)

Hell, right now, if I had 945 boots, prydaz would give me more dps than wearing lego boots. So prydaz isn't really a good reason, as it tends to be as good if not better for MM.

But yeah, handling raid mechanics, etc BM for sure is great at. It'll just depend how much mechanics make you lose dps. If you can work around them etc. If we end up wearing gloves again, MM will have mega mobility, and it's pretty clear which spec would win out then.

Thing is, you learn the mechanics on the boss fight in the week before mythic opens, on heroic (for the most part, ignoring mythic mechanics) and it shouldn't take you more than a few pulls on the mythic versions before you have the movement part under wraps. So the "better for progress" because of movement, is only really valid on bosses you're going to down in about under 10 wipes.

I do see why BM is very good, and I think both specs will be highly competitive, I just think it'll be the same as ToS, MM better, but not by enough that BM should feel like they HAVE to reroll, but should atleast consider playing both specs.

[keygy]

I'm guessing you haven't actually seen the boss. There's no potential for AOE on those "waves" - four different abilities, one spawns a bunch of adds you just dodge, one spawns 8 adds in an even spread (too far for most cleave - divine storm, thrash etc might be able to hit 2), and 2 abilities spawn 4x adds in opposite corners from each other, making it a pure single target burst scenario (you're likely going to divide the raid into 2x groups, so 2x adds to deal with for an individual).

Likewise, I've obviously not done much mythic testing, but outside of Eonar, the 6 bosses that I have tested (all but the 3 first) all are pure single target, or at best, has brief periods of 2-target cleave (like when a robot has spawned on Kin'G, or an add on Portal Keeper - while the imps are technically AOE, they fall over so easily that a single boomkin could handle them in a 15 man group, so spec'ing for that seems overkill).

As said though this isn't exactly a bad thing for MM - the sustained single target damage will be quite a bit higher than BM's, but with far fewer trueshots, and less potency in regards to the use of them (due to no AOE/cleave) is bad news for MM, while lots of high-priority "kill this add ASAP" singletarget is good news for BM's toolkit.

(Above points aside, I also have to chuckle a bit at you saying MM without trueshot can beat BM with cooldowns up on AOE burst. That depends entirely on the length of the "burst" - if we're talking 8-10 seconds I wouldn't be so sure, considering MM needs 2 globals for each marked shot, + a proc, while BM needs 1 global per stomp and will get atleast 3 off in that timeframe, but that's purely anecdotal).

I would really not dismiss either spec at this point. I think we'll see the same pattern as in Tomb though:

MM does more damage if played perfectly.

BM is just better at handling the raid mechanics and unforeseen circumstances / occurrences, making it the better progress spec for most hunters. BM also has the benefit of far more wiggle room than MM in terms of legendaries for survivability (prydaz is, despite me having a 920 convergence and every BM legendary, within 1% overall dps range of my current setup of bracers+boots, making it quite viable), more frequent immunities being a bit of a draw.

With Cof only you dont have any problems for what are you pointing about mm in antorus, Cof when you need trueshot a certain times in a boss is the best trinket in the game for MM

[Emerald Archer]

With Cof only you dont have any problems for what are you pointing about mm in antorus, Cof when you need trueshot a certain times in a boss is the best trinket in the game for MM

CoF will die off in Antorus, maybe an extremely rare situation when you NEED it to line up with an add you NEED desperately to kill, but even then. Not too likely. Shouldn't be worth the dps loss elsewhere.

Early Antorus sure, but it will die off.

[keygy]

CoF will die off in Antorus, maybe an extremely rare situation when you NEED it to line up with an add you NEED desperately to kill, but even then. Not too likely.

Early Antorus sure, but it will die off.

well draco said that antorus have a lot of kill priority adds, if thats the case, CoF gonna be relevant for sure.

[Emerald Archer]

well draco said that antorus have a lot of kill priority adds, if thats the case, CoF gonna be relevant for sure.

Added this bit late "Shouldn't be worth the dps loss elsewhere."

It wouldn't be worth the dps loss elsewhere in most situations. You rarely need the entire raid geared/talented into bursting prio adds down.

Like we will see closer, it's just CoF is already getting replaced now, with much better trinkets, it'll be a pretty huge loss to have to wear it again in future.

[Azzkikr]

But you seem to have a lot of misconceptions, and a massive underestimation of 2% dps.

2% dps for geared players, who this stuff matters for, is atleast about 32k dps.

Going from WORST stat pants, to best stat pants, is about 3k extra dps, a 0.1% dps increase. So on 2 items, you're looking at 0.2-0.3% difference, FAR cry from 2%.

I dont know where you get stuff like this from, but it has nothing to do with reality. If anyone is underestimating anything here its you on how big an impact the right secondary stats actually have.

When i sim my character on ST with tier pants (worst stats) vs Legguards of siphoned power (best stats), both pieces are 920 ilvl and rest of the gear are identical on the two sims (using 5 tier pieces with the tier pants and 4 with the legguards). I get the following results.

Worst stats result - 1388966 dps
Best stats results - 1403998 dps

Thats 15k~ difference and over 1% increase alone from one single piece of gear...

Thats quite a bit off your 0,1% estimation and this is only from 920 ilvl pieces, the difference will be bigger on higher ilvl pieces with more secondary stat.

Ofcourse this is worst case scenario where both secondary stats are inferior, but its still quite telling about how little the difference will have to be before the 4p becomes inferior to better itemized pieces.

Its a joke of a tier bonus no way around it.

The 2p I don't know much on, but the extra focus gen is quite nice.

It a rather irrelevant bonus, most of the focus gain comes from passive regeneration anyways, getting 2 focus more per aimed shot (3 on crits) wont matter much in the long run in terms of how many and how fast you will get vulnerable windows over the course of a fight and even less on how many aimed shots you will be shooting.

Its only a decent boost for sidewinders, as the tier bonus basically restores sidewinders 50 focus again, which lowers the current issue of downtime abit, not to mention sidewinders benefits far more from the added damage than AS.

[Emerald Archer]

I dont know where you get stuff like this from, but it has nothing to do with reality. If anyone is underestimating anything here its you on how big an impact the right secondary stats actually have.

When i sim my character on ST with tier pants (worst stats) vs Legguards of siphoned power (best stats), both pieces are 920 ilvl and rest of the gear are identical on the two sims (using 5 tier pieces with the tier pants and 4 with the legguards). I get the following results.

Worst stats result - 1388966 dps
Best stats results - 1403998 dps

Thats 15k~ difference and over 1% increase alone from one single piece of gear...

Thats quite a bit off your 0,1% estimation and this is only from 920 ilvl pieces, the difference will be bigger on higher ilvl pieces with more secondary stat.

Ofcourse this is worst case scenario where both secondary stats are inferior, but its still quite telling about how little the difference will have to be before the 4p becomes inferior to better itemized pieces.

Its a joke of a tier bonus no way around it.



It a rather irrelevant bonus, most of the focus gain comes from passive regeneration anyways, getting 2 focus more per aimed shot (3 on crits) wont matter much in the long run in terms of how many and how fast you will get vulnerable windows over the course of a fight and even less on how many aimed shots you will be shooting.

Its only a decent boost for sidewinders, as the tier bonus basically restores sidewinders 50 focus again, which lowers the current issue of downtime abit, not to mention sidewinders benefits far more from the added damage than AS.

I simmed myself, haste>vers 930 pants, vs Mast>Crit 930 pants, and it was a 0.1% increase. It wasn't an estimation, it was straight numbers from my sims.

The t21 tier you wear wont' have horrible stats, so you'll need a lot more than just stats to replace it.

[Azzkikr]

You probably hit some haste breakpoint then that only simcraft can get anything significant from.

Its common knowledge that the difference in secondary stats are far bigger than 0,1%, i dont even know why we are debating that tbh.

[Emerald Archer]

You probably hit some haste breakpoint then that only simcraft can get anything significant from.

Its common knowledge that the difference in secondary stats are far bigger than 0,1%, i dont even know why we are debating that tbh.

Nah you're right, I made a mistake in my sims. Redid it and yeah 0.5% dps gain, not your 1%, but yeah a bit more.

Because you aren't going from worst stats to best stats though, it'd be significantly less, and you would again need a chunk of ilvl on the gear on top of your "stats only" suggestion.

If you took the worst 2 t21 pieces, and got PERFECT stat items of equal ilvl, you'd be looking at a 0.5% ish dps increase, rest has to come from ilvl increase. And because agi is so worthless, it's just the slow secondary stat increase.

Using pants again as an example, (Keep in mind, this ilvl estimate is low, because pants are so heavily statted, as soon as this becomes a cloak or something, you need a lot more ilvl before this works)
If you have 930 pants, average stats, so Haste>>Crit, you need 955 Mast>Crit pants, for it to be exactly a 2% dps increase. So that's a stat increase and 25ilvls total.

If we look at a cloak, 920, Haste>Mast, vs a 955 mast>crit cloak, that's only 1.2% better.

So 35ilvls and better stats, and you're barely over the half way mark of what you need, to beat t21 4pc.

So You would be looking at a 30-40ilvl increase in your 2 gear pieces, depending on what they are, maybe more, maybe less.

You're heavily underestimating what 2% damage is, maybe you're undergeared? So your percent dps goes up higher easier? Unsure. But on no planet, will simply better stats, be enough to come close to beating out t21 4pc, no matter how bad you think it is.

[Azzkikr]

Im 938 which includes an old 865 arcano, so it has nothing to do with being undergeared, i just chose the leg slot since it was the only slot where i had 2 items with the same ilvl with worst and best stats to do the comparison.

Why you get lower sims i dont know, but my sims say > 1%. Crit will probably have slightly lower value in antorus though, but mastery surely wont.

And please stop with the "You're heavily underestimating what 2% damage is". For a 1,5m dps, an additional 2% is less than 10m damage over a 5 minute fight and considering we are talking about such an RNG-esque spec as MM hunt where dps can fluctuate so heavily (not to mention the 4p t21 is all about RNG as well...) its a ridiculous to even talk about. Add to that, that the actually dps increase over optimal stats with same ilvl gear is closer to 1-0,5%, which basically makes it equal to getting an extra l'n'l proc or not...

Not to mention that one of the suboptimal stats we are talking about here is haste, which is a wonky stat it, as the sim will be able to predict a casting pattern far better than any human. Contrary to the static increase of the other 3 stats.

Either way, we will see how it turns out. Hopefully it will be buffed again so there is no need to even think about this.