Why do people say Trump isn't anti-LGBT+

[GreenGoldSharpie]

It's almost like they're lying about something. But they wouldn't do that, would they, lie to prove a point they can't justify? Not the Conservatives I know!

oh, wait....

I dislike WPATH intensely, but it's fun to point out to these chuckleheads that it's been a thing for 35+ years and has a 20 page deep reference section while being demanded as a gatekeeper for all those surgeries they are freaking the fuck out about!

[pathora44]

No one forces religion on anyone. Shit attempt at deflection. Playing pretend male or female is 100% a choice the person makes. Pointing out facts is considered "bigotry" now?

Well except Sessions basically made it possible for any "religious" person to fire anyone who isn't Christian then ya they pretty much forced their religion on you. But hey if you aren't a white male straight Christian then fuck you because that is the only correct choice to be.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

I dislike WPATH intensely, but it's fun to point out to these chuckleheads that it's been a thing for 35+ years and has a 20 page deep reference section while being demanded as a gatekeeper for all those surgeries they are freaking the fuck out about!

hehehe. Don't you know, it's a trend! Something the kids are all into so we can feel persecuted and be special snowflake cucks or something whatever Steve Bannon tells them to think.

Well it's nice to see someone else who understands. You're way farther down the road then I am, thanks to my medical issues. I haven't started HRT yet. It's nice meeting you.

[Zantos]

And those trans vets who have likewise earned it shouldn't get that same courtesy?

Most of the spending for trans soldiers is post-service, just like who's using most of the ED treatments.

And again, they're not trans thus depressed and anxious, they're treated like crap and thus become depressed and anxious. One of the biggest issues is the availability of care - it is why many trans people have joined the military. (Unrelated, it also is silly common that prior to coming out, trans women try to hyper-masculinize, to hide their real feelings, and many become very proficient soldiers.)

Can you show me any proof that trans soldiers, in active service, have worst outcomes, have any sort of direct detrimental impact to military readiness?

Can you explain how many of our allies have had Trans personal for years, with no significant changes to readiness?

You can't. You can't use trans people as a whole to describe trans soldiers, any more than you can use the general population to speak to the the readiness of our military. You shift the goal posts so much you might as well mount them in a F150.

They get those same benefits. The ban wouldn't allow any to be recruited. It wouldn't impact any that are already there, or who transitioned after service.

Now, to your point as to the evidence. Here is one study: https://www.rand.org/news/press/2016/06/30.html

The reason why our allies haven't seen any Significant changes to readiness is simple. There are so few of them who meet the standards to be let into service. Like other statistics show, at last half of those who are transgendered suffer from depression or anxiety. Both are disqualifying mood disorders. That is why only about 2,500 are in active service compared to the total amount of soldiers we have. Not only that, but only 18 countries allow them to openly serve. So its not nearly as prevalent as you make it out to be.


And here is to your third point, their outcome.Under going hormone therapy changes things. Like you physical capabilities. This is a fact that can be told to you by anyone. For example, a male going to a female will lose strength and won't be as strong as they were prior to the treatments. So to answer your other thing, yes, I can show you that it could lead to them having a lower performance due to the changes their body will under go as a direct result of hormone replacement therapy.

I don't shift any goal posts. And here are the things you asked for. Enjoy the read. If you want more information, look up medical journals and studies about the effects of hormone therapy. Or their higher rate of mental disorders. Or how they aren't a significant impact because of how few there are.

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Then you'll have little problem providing said outcomes? Peer reviewed, of course?

I gave links to various information. What else do you want? An audio book?

[GreenGoldSharpie]

hehehe. Don't you know, it's a trend! Something the kids are all into so we can feel persecuted and be special snowflake cucks or something whatever Steve Bannon tells them to think.

Well it's nice to see someone else who understands. You're way farther down the road then I am, thanks to my medical issues. I haven't started HRT yet. It's nice meeting you.

Likewise! I'm not above a PM if you want to exchange info.

I stopped posting here for laying into a regular and getting sanctioned, and I get it. Trans folks aren't really welcome here given the usual suspects. That doesn't mean we don't have support, but even our support isn't up on what being transgender is. The funny thing is I work as a teacher for an alternative school after working as a special ed teacher's aid. I have kiddos who either flunked or who have been expelled, and they're mine. I adore them, and at the same time I'm shocked they haven't clocked me in two months. :-D

Know how many comments can take this away from me? None. It's awesome. Transition when you can, if you need it. It's the greatest thing ever.

[Moralgy]

I see you continue to lower and lower the bar.

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You remove Kaori from you avatar if you are going to vomit shit like this out.

Is that some trans character or something? If so, i find that hilarious tbqh.

[Cthulhu 2020]

It was called Gender Identity Disorder, and now its called Gender Dysphoria. It's a mental disorder, as defined by the medical community.

You are not a woman just because you think you are. Men and Women have different chromosomes, and that never changes, and it is defined at birth.

If it's a disorder or mental illness, that means it's covered by insurance. The best treatment for gender dysphoria is gender reassignment surgery.

So you're saying that insurance should start covering gender reassignment surgeries?

[Moralgy]

Likewise! I'm not above a PM if you want to exchange info.

I stopped posting here for laying into a regular and getting sanctioned, and I get it. Trans folks aren't really welcome here given the usual suspects. That doesn't mean we don't have support, but even our support isn't up on what being transgender is. The funny thing is I work as a teacher for an alternative school after working as a special ed teacher's aid. I have kiddos who either flunked or who have been expelled, and they're mine. I adore them, and at the same time I'm shocked they haven't clocked me in two months. :-D

Know how many comments can take this away from me? None. It's awesome. Transition when you can, if you need it. It's the greatest thing ever.

The forum really has taken a turn to the right in recent years regarding trans stuff, though, it never has really been the most welcoming place in the first place. That is just the internet + gaming culture in a nutshell though, sadly.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

They get those same benefits. The ban wouldn't allow any to be recruited. It wouldn't impact any that are already there, or who transitioned after service.

Now, to your point as to the evidence. Here is one study: https://www.rand.org/news/press/2016/06/30.html

The reason why our allies haven't seen any Significant changes to readiness is simple. There are so few of them who meet the standards to be let into service. Like other statistics show, at last half of those who are transgendered suffer from depression or anxiety. Both are disqualifying mood disorders. That is why only about 2,500 are in active service compared to the total amount of soldiers we have. Not only that, but only 18 countries allow them to openly serve. So its not nearly as prevalent as you make it out to be.


And here is to your third point, their outcome.Under going hormone therapy changes things. Like you physical capabilities. This is a fact that can be told to you by anyone. For example, a male going to a female will lose strength and won't be as strong as they were prior to the treatments. So to answer your other thing, yes, I can show you that it could lead to them having a lower performance due to the changes their body will under go as a direct result of hormone replacement therapy.

I don't shift any goal posts. And here are the things you asked for. Enjoy the read. If you want more information, look up medical journals and studies about the effects of hormone therapy. Or their higher rate of mental disorders. Or how they aren't a significant impact because of how few there are.

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I gave links to various information. What else do you want? An audio book?

Ok, so you give me two opinion pieces, one from a conservative Think Tank, the other one written and posted on comedy list website Cracked.com, which your proof shares space with stirring, thought provoking articles like "5 Fun Cartoons You Never Noticed Have Really Dark Universes". And then try to belittle trans military people due to numbers. And Wikipedia. Glad I never had you for my Reference Studies class. Also, notice all but two of those 18 countries are allies?

You're not very good at this, are you? You didn't prove squat. Ya just showed how unable you are of showing anything real to prove that trans soldiers aren't able to serve their country. You haven't been able to show how they negatively effect readiness, you haven't been able to show they cost too much, and you haven't been able to show any other negative effect that can't be likewise traced to many other conditions.

I really think based on the dribble you spit out that you think every soldier is Rambo or something. Like the future of democracy rides on one person. It doesn't. Trans people in the military join up to serve. If their condition limits them to some types of service, that's for the military to decide - not you, not the Orange Goblin. Hell, the military just started allowing women in infantry combat roles recently. Are you as up in arms about that? Are you saying women can't handle that? Well if cis women can, why not trans women? And what about trans guys?

You have a bias. You don't like trans people serving. Fine. But you're justifications are pathetic. If you don't want trans people serving just say it, so we can write you off as the bigot that it is increasingly likely you are. You can't provide reasonable justification for your beliefs. If you just want to wallow in your ignorance, just say so, so we can ignore you. Until then, you keep on posting crappy non-proofs, we'll keep shutting it down.

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Likewise! I'm not above a PM if you want to exchange info.

I stopped posting here for laying into a regular and getting sanctioned, and I get it. Trans folks aren't really welcome here given the usual suspects. That doesn't mean we don't have support, but even our support isn't up on what being transgender is. The funny thing is I work as a teacher for an alternative school after working as a special ed teacher's aid. I have kiddos who either flunked or who have been expelled, and they're mine. I adore them, and at the same time I'm shocked they haven't clocked me in two months. :-D

Know how many comments can take this away from me? None. It's awesome. Transition when you can, if you need it. It's the greatest thing ever.

Ha! Got my BA in Special Ed, I dig it. Glad to hear your success. I'm working on transitioning. I'm working past 20 years of burying myself in self-hatred and internalized transphobia. It's a long story. I have to take care of my health first - primarily my weight issues (hey, food is a GREAT drug to hide who you are!). But it's toward a goal of one day being able to show people the me I feel I am inside. It's going to take a lot of work but for the first time in my life I feel motivated to improve myself, and not just trying to hide.

Thanks again. :-)

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The forum really has taken a turn to the right in recent years regarding trans stuff, though, it never has really been the most welcoming place in the first place. That is just the internet + gaming culture in a nutshell though, sadly.

Yeah. It took a lil gumption - I think it's the first time I've said on this forum I'm Trans, and I took my hand on and off the mouse a few times before clicking the send button. But I think I have to be honest and clear about where I'm coming from, and I'm trying hard to hide anymore.

[Zantos]

Ok, so you give me two opinion pieces,

Way to attempt to discredit mountains of medical research.

You have a bias. You don't like trans people serving. Fine. But you're justifications are pathetic. If you don't want trans people serving just say it, so we can write you off as the bigot that it is increasingly likely you are. You can't provide reasonable justification for your beliefs. If you just want to wallow in your ignorance, just say so, so we can ignore you. Until then, you keep on posting crappy non-proofs, we'll keep shutting it down.

The only bias I have is towards anyone who cannot perform the necessary duties of a active military personnel. Regardless of who they are or what they think or do. So no, I don't just think Transgenders shouldn't serve. They absolutely should be allowed to serve. As long as they don't have depression or anxiety, and are not in the middle of hormone therapy. Nor should they be allowed to begin such treatments while in active service or deployed to a battle field.

Lets get this straight, you're shutting down nothing here. You're discrediting anything you disagree with and hurling insults as if that is supposed to change hard, medically researched, facts.

Here is a fun exercise, counter my points. Counter the research showing that transgender are more likely to have depression or anxiety. Oh wait, you already said that was true.

Give me facts and research disproving the side effects of hormone treatment therapy causing physical changes in ones body.

Give me your evidence of the impact of transgenders in military service. Again, I admitted its a small impact, and I told you why. There are so few of them. Depression and anxiety Disqualify You From Military Service.

Go ahead though, keep spewing nonsense without trying to support your statements or view points one bit. You're not helping anyone.

[Sky High]

really, is it that surprising Trump is full of shit? like it's this that proves it? please.

[Powerogue]

Pretty sure someone who is "against LGBT+" wouldn't be proudly holding their flag of acceptance

[IMG]https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5818b1d9150000d80453109b.jpeg?cache=mqwkhh4rms&ops=scalefit_720_noupscale[IMG]

Also, if that wasn't enough, hes come out multiple times saying he supports the LBGT community.

Actions speak louder than words. Legalizing discrimination against them might as well have burned that flag.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

Way to attempt to discredit mountains of medical research.

The only bias I have is towards anyone who cannot perform the necessary duties of a active military personnel. Regardless of who they are or what they think or do. So no, I don't just think Transgenders shouldn't serve. They absolutely should be allowed to serve. As long as they don't have depression or anxiety, and are not in the middle of hormone therapy. Nor should they be allowed to begin such treatments while in active service or deployed to a battle field.

Lets get this straight, you're shutting down nothing here. You're discrediting anything you disagree with and hurling insults as if that is supposed to change hard, medically researched, facts.

Here is a fun exercise, counter my points. Counter the research showing that transgender are more likely to have depression or anxiety. Oh wait, you already said that was true.

Give me facts and research disproving the side effects of hormone treatment therapy causing physical changes in ones body.

Give me your evidence of the impact of transgenders in military service. Again, I admitted its a small impact, and I told you why. There are so few of them. Depression and anxiety Disqualify You From Military Service.

Go ahead though, keep spewing nonsense without trying to support your statements or view points one bit. You're not helping anyone.

First, Transgender is an adjective. You don't pluralize it by adding "S" to the end. It's Transgender people. Or just trans people. Not Transgenders. You look like a freak'n moron saying it like that. And honestly from how you act it's not far off the mark.

Your points - that HRT causes physical changes, that trans people have more depression and anxiety, are just facts. That does not mean that you can present these and say Post hoc ergo propter hoc trans people shouldn't serve. Just because HRT changes your body and trans people are more predisposed to depression doesn't mean they're not fit to serve.

Lemme try another tact, since facts don't seem to be your strong suit.

I don't know if you know this, but the military has kind of a problem with suicide. More service people - active duty ones- have died at their own hands then due to the enemy since 9/11. Among vets it's staggering. This is because of lousy mental health care and a culture of not being able to reach out - that fear of doing so will harm your career or cause you to be kicked out.

You're adding to this by making a small subset of service people a scapegoat - people who are treating their personal issues the best medical way possible are being thrown out because they're receiving treatment. How's that going to effect a cis service person who feels depressed and doesn't know how to handle it?

You can't think your way through this. You're fixed on your one bolded point, and your point is not factually correct. Many service people have depression and anxiety - they get treatment. Treatment for trans people is no different.

We need to remove the stigma of treatment - let soldiers know they won't have their livelihoods threatened by being honest. We can start by saying Trans soldiers have a place. A willingness and desire to serve your country makes a service member - not your muscles, not an unbending will. We can and should encourage every soldier to help themselves.

(Infracted) ~ Minor Flaming

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Give me your evidence of the impact of transgenders in military service. Again, I admitted its a small impact, and I told you why. There are so few of them. Depression and anxiety Disqualify You From Military Service.

This is exactly why there is no legitimate reason to ban all transgender individuals from service, the ones that do serve passed the psychological evaluation.

[Zantos]

Your points - that HRT causes physical changes, that trans people have more depression and anxiety, are just facts. That does not mean that you can present these and say Post hoc ergo propter hoc trans people shouldn't serve. Just because HRT changes your body and trans people are more predisposed to depression doesn't mean they're not fit to serve.

If they have depression or anxiety its disqualifying for a reason. If they don't have it, great, let them serve.

I don't know if you know this, but the military has kind of a problem with suicide. More service people - active duty ones- have died at their own hands then due to the enemy since 9/11. Among vets it's staggering. This is because of lousy mental health care and a culture of not being able to reach out - that fear of doing so will harm your career or cause you to be kicked out.

Actually no, its highly encouraged to seek help in the military and is not grounds for them to be kicked out.

You're adding to this by making a small subset of service people a scapegoat - people who are treating their personal issues the best medical way possible are being thrown out because they're receiving treatment. How's that going to effect a cis service person who feels depressed and doesn't know how to handle it?

Please, enlighten me. In what way am I making anyone a scape goat? by pointing out medical facts? By saying if they HAVE a disorder, then they shouldn't serve? Because that is Anyone who has depression or anxiety. Transgender or not, its a disqualifying condition for Anyone. Cis gender people aren't allowed to serve if they have depression prior to trying to enlist. So no, not a subset.

You can't think your way through this. You're fixed on your one bolded point, and your point is not factually correct. Many service people have depression and anxiety - they get treatment. Treatment for trans people is no different.

Now your getting some where! You're 100% right, treatment is the same for everyone!

We need to remove the stigma of treatment - let soldiers know they won't have their livelihoods threatened by being honest. We can start by saying Trans soldiers have a place. A willingness and desire to serve your country makes a service member - not your muscles, not an unbending will. We can and should encourage every soldier to help themselves.

They already know. Trans soldiers Do have a place. As long as they don't have depression or anxiety prior to trying to enlist. Just like Everyone else who tries to enlist. This isn't some special snowflake scenario, so stop trying to make it into one.

Trump is an idiot. However, I refuted the common arguments against his statements. If people want to refute the talking orange, then do so with Solid facts. Not made up, or dissected facts. Don't spew nonsense like "lawlz viagra" or "bomb sniffing elephants" while completely taking them out of context. Look at what we do know and make a sound argument from that.

Now, if you personally want to continue a chat, do so without insults. I haven't called out any names. If you can't be more respectful then what you have demonstrated, we are done here.

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This is exactly why there is no legitimate reason to ban all transgender individuals from service, the ones that do serve passed the psychological evaluation.

I will play devils advocate here. I agree, they should be allowed to serve.

Now, the devils advocate here: They have higher rates of depression and anxiety, with 40% of them having attempted suicide. Military service increases anyones rates for depression, anxiety, ptsd and suicide as is. Having a high risk group put into service almost ensures they will end up needing extra medical help and resources spent on them due to the higher then average rate that they would have to start to suffer from some form of mental disorder. Thus, an argument could be made that they are a group that could lead to more spending in the mental health department given these two things.

[Garnier Fructis]

I will play devils advocate here. I agree, they should be allowed to serve.

Now, the devils advocate here: They have higher rates of depression and anxiety, with 40% of them having attempted suicide. Military service increases anyones rates for depression, anxiety, ptsd and suicide as is. Having a high risk group put into service almost ensures they will end up needing extra medical help and resources spent on them due to the higher then average rate that they would have to start to suffer from some form of mental disorder. Thus, an argument could be made that they are a group that could lead to more spending in the mental health department given these two things.

Shouldn't the prior rate be irrelevant if mental health is screened for before people can enter military service? Which is to say, why would we expect the rate of mental health disorders for transgender people in service to be higher than others?

[Zantos]

Shouldn't the prior rate be irrelevant if mental health is screened for before people can enter military service? Which is to say, why would we expect the rate of mental health disorders for transgender people in service to be higher than others?

Well, if we take this argument, its simple. Transgender people have a higher base rate in normal, everyday life. That is why some could say they would have a higher rate then others in the military. Since they are already starting out a pretty high rate.

[Lenonis]

The only people who think Trump is pro-LGBT are people who are either brain dead or so disconnected from LGBT issues that they have to go back to a photo from the campaign to find their input to make up their mind.

Trump has stated several times he's against gay rights, he has signed executive orders against gay rights, he's had cabinet members do anti-gay measures, and he's supported platforms and candidate that have taken explicitly anti-gay stances.

Trump himself may or may not be a bigot. We'll never really know. However it is blindly obvious he's made the political calculation to side with the bigots when it comes to his administration.

[Antiganon]

Well, if we take this argument, its simple. Transgender people have a higher base rate in normal, everyday life. That is why some could say they would have a higher rate then others in the military. Since they are already starting out a pretty high rate.

That isn't how it works. Let's use completely different traits as a hypothetical example.

Suppose left handed people are more likely to have ADHD. The military screens for ADHD during recruitment, and it will prevent you from serving. Would you expect to see a higher percentage of left handed servoce members with ADHD than the percentage of right handed servoce members with ADHD?

If your answer is yes, you need to reread the question. EVERYONE with ADHD is barred. Meaning the percentage rate of service members with ADHD should be exceedingly low, basically only a few mild cases that flew under the radar, and people who developed ADHD while already enlisted. This is the same expected rate as right handed people, as well as the total military population in aggregate.

Now swap left handed with trans, and ADHD with depression/anxiety.

[Brubear]

It's because "being for something" is a completely overloaded term and definition. I think being supportive of a group does not mean that 100% of the things you do should yield a positive for that group.

If BLM decides to stage the shutdown of an interstate, and a member of BLM disapproves of that strategy, vocally... is that person anti-BLM?

Trump may want the lives of the LGBTQ population to be better, and he may be trying to save LGBTQ people from the upcoming draft for WW III. Anyways, I'm not here to say he is anti-LGBTQ or not. My only point is, if he provides 10 positive steps for LGBTQ and 1 negative, if you consider this a negative... would you consider him anti or not?

If that 1 thing is something that effectively renders any of the 10 positives moot (like, say, not only making it legal for people to discriminate you but to actually protect the people discriminating against you because for some reason THEY'RE the ones that need legal protection?) then yes, you definitely consider him anti.

What positive things has he actually done for the LGBTQ+ community since taking office? Because I already listed two things he's actually done that have major negative effects on them.