Which Mage spec for Antorus?

[Biomega]

Hey everyone,


Looking towards Antorus, I'm thinking of rolling a Mage as my (required) raiding alt. I've played Mage before and I'm comfortable on all three specs - personal preference aside, I like playing what's optimal, down to the min/max. With that in mind, I'm now trying to decide which spec to roll in preparation for the raid, particularly in terms of legendaries. Since it'll likely take a good few weeks to get the right ones, I'd rather start collecting for the spec most likely to be the best in Antorus.

On that subject, however, I've heard a lot of different opinions. Some say Frost is going to be king, while others insist Fire has the better tier bonus and will come out on top. Since hard data is a bit difficult to come by, I'd like to ask people for their opinion - and, more importantly, for their REASONING behind those opinions. So, if you reply, please tell us WHY you think so. Of course there is not going to be a 100% conclusive, guaranteed correct answer given that things are still in flux on the PTR. That I have to live with. But starting the legendary grind can't begin soon enough, so the wisdom of crowds is the best I can do, I feel.

Thanks everyone for your replies in advance!

[Afflik]

If you are starting from scratch without legendaries you should go frost. Fire is good, but is the most legendary dependent of the 3 specs. Arcane is good, but isn't the best at anything. So with that said, frost is your best bet.

[Poppichulo]

As said by Afflik, go frost as a beginner mage. Fire is much more complex, and is not only legendary dependent, but gear dependant in general.

In terms of the most fun spec, I'd say fire hands down. Frost/arcane are bland imo in comparison to fire.

I played fire from the start just because I liked the style, I acquired gear and lego's pretty fast because I am semi-hardcore but that's just me.

[Biomega]

To clarify, I don't give a donkey's balls about my performance in ToS. I'll be carried through by the guild np, as we all gear our various alts for Antorus. What matters is performance NEXT tier, and I'd like to have as many legendaries ready for that as possible. For that, choosing one spec is pretty much required, and I'd rather be prepared for the best spec THEN, not NOW.

[nerfproof]

Most people seem to think Fire is going to be the go to spec going into the new raid based off the new tier and how well its currently performing in ToS. Now once Antorus is open there is no telling what blizz will do as far as "balancing" but Fire seems to be the odds on favorite. I, myself, plan on still playing GS going into the new raid. I've been raiding using this build since ToS opened and I've been super happy with the results.

[Afflik]

To clarify, I don't give a donkey's balls about my performance in ToS. I'll be carried through by the guild np, as we all gear our various alts for Antorus. What matters is performance NEXT tier, and I'd like to have as many legendaries ready for that as possible. For that, choosing one spec is pretty much required, and I'd rather be prepared for the best spec THEN, not NOW.

Cool story. You still want to go frost. You don't have time to get the needed legendaries to play fire unless you have god like RNG.

[nerfproof]

Cool story. You still want to go frost. You don't have time to get the needed legendaries to play fire unless you have god like RNG.

True Story

[Biomega]

Cool story. You still want to go frost. You don't have time to get the needed legendaries to play fire unless you have god like RNG.

That's certainly an argument. Then again, it'll be a few weeks still until Antorus and I do plan to go pretty ham on the farming, with the full world tour etc. 4-5 legendaries is probably not unrealistic for a month of farming. That being said, you're absolutely right that it could be a gamble - so the question is, by how much would Fire be ahead? And why, specifically? Just the tier bonus? Stat scaling in general?

[Otrew]

That's certainly an argument. Then again, it'll be a few weeks still until Antorus and I do plan to go pretty ham on the farming, with the full world tour etc. 4-5 legendaries is probably not unrealistic for a month of farming. That being said, you're absolutely right that it could be a gamble - so the question is, by how much would Fire be ahead? And why, specifically? Just the tier bonus? Stat scaling in general?

Right now im just missing bracers and helm, just get the belt like 2 day a go my dps incresed like 200k overall in our weekly heroic clear. So... is a pretty big gamble

[Deleted]

If you want to play fire, play fire, you should be able to get a legendary on a weekly basis if you play enough.

That should still give you enough time to get 7-8 legendaries before Antorus opens up.

[Biomega]

If you want to play fire, play fire, you should be able to get a legendary on a weekly basis if you play enough.

That should still give you enough time to get 7-8 legendaries before Antorus opens up.

That is essentially the prospect, however I don't particularly WANT to play Fire, or Frost (or Arcane, for all that it matters) - I want to play what I will do best with, for our guild progression. I've played both Frost and Fire before, I'm comfortable with either. Both are fun for me. So the tiebreaker is expected raid performance in Antorus.

[Marrilaife]

You don't have time to get the needed legendaries to play fire unless you have god like RNG.

With how legendary BLP works atm, you can set spec to fire, gamble your 1st and 2nd one with increased chance, then switch to another spec.

One of the 3 things can happen:
1. You get fire bracers as one of the first 2. Bingo! You can now play fire and you can also get offspec BLP for faster legendaries (as long as the 2 you have are fire specific).
2. You get fire specific legendary but it's crap. Well nothing lost, you have exactly same chance now to start in frost or arcane as if you had zero legendaries. You lost just a bit of work, but first 2 come fast.
3. You get a shared one. Well RIP your offspec BLP and pray it's shard of exodar and not norgannon's. You can then go frost or whatever you can muster with the legendaries you have.

Even if you get good legendary first as long as it's spec specific it's worth switching to offspec to fish for things like shard of exodar - you get increased chance for legendary as long as you don't have any shared ones for that spec.

[Dastreus]

I dunno, I much prefer Frost. I tried fire for a bit... felt too dependent on crit RNG. Some RNG is fine, I main Assassination Rogue (which loves crit mutilates for fast CP generation), but not that much. Frost also has the benefit of slowing enemies and such.

[Biomega]

With how legendary BLP works atm, you can set spec to fire, gamble your 1st and 2nd one with increased chance, then switch to another spec.

One of the 3 things can happen:
1. You get fire bracers as one of the first 2. Bingo! You can now play fire and you can also get offspec BLP for faster legendaries (as long as the 2 you have are fire specific).
2. You get fire specific legendary but it's crap. Well nothing lost, you have exactly same chance now to start in frost or arcane as if you had zero legendaries. You lost just a bit of work, but first 2 come fast.
3. You get a shared one. Well RIP your offspec BLP and pray it's shard of exodar and not norgannon's. You can then go frost or whatever you can muster with the legendaries you have.

Even if you get good legendary first as long as it's spec specific it's worth switching to offspec to fish for things like shard of exodar - you get increased chance for legendary as long as you don't have any shared ones for that spec.

This is actually pretty fantastic advice. Sounds like a solid plan. Thanks!

[Charge me Doctor]

That is essentially the prospect, however I don't particularly WANT to play Fire, or Frost (or Arcane, for all that it matters) - I want to play what I will do best with, for our guild progression. I've played both Frost and Fire before, I'm comfortable with either. Both are fun for me. So the tiebreaker is expected raid performance in Antorus.

Well there is a problem, forum can't help you, because forum can't know what you are capable of, so roll whatever you want, my bet is that all 3 specs will be close to each other

[Biomega]

Well there is a problem, forum can't help you, because forum can't know what you are capable of, so roll whatever you want, my bet is that all 3 specs will be close to each other

I'd disagree that input is irrelevant because of player skill. Skill will always be a factor to be sure, but given how unpredictable it is, you're probably still better off analyzing things objectively. I don't see my play swinging one particular spec by a significant margin, I've played numerous classes and done well enough on all of them to be confident that it shouldn't be a deciding factor.

And while I agree that specs will be "close", that's true for anything. The crux is usually in HOW close. And the finer you go in your discrimination, the more "close" becomes a debatable term. Are Sub Rogue and Outlaw Rogue "close"? Are BM hunter and MM hunter? What margin, exactly, is "close" versus not being so? In the absence of actual data, I'll settle for educated guesses - however, I'm mostly interested in the educated part rather than the guessing part. Reasons, rather than feelings.

I'm not looking for the one, definitive answer. I'm looking for aggregated knowledge, data, experience, arguments, from which I can then, ultimately, distill something that might be worth using for me.

[Deleted]

I'm looking for aggregated knowledge, data, experience, arguments, from which I can then, ultimately, distill something that might be worth using for me.

There is not a lot of knowledge, data or experience at all at this moment and won't be until 2 weeks into release.

If you want to be prepared. Farm AP for all three weapons and bring them up to 75 until patch. Learn how to play all 3 specs and build muscle memory for all of them. Then just grind good relics for every weapon with good traits and crucible luck. Gear isn't mandatory, since it will get replaced really quick with the new raid.

Sure you can sim every spec with new sets (which might still get changed, happened with frost 7.2.5 on release date) and see how well every spec does on a patchwerk fight. But guess what, there is no patchwerk fight.

I want to play what I will do best with, for our guild progression.

This also isn't dps dependant. Frosts grants you more constant dmg and two iceblock. Arcane and fire are better if you need burst windows for certain mechanics. Fire wins in AOE, Arcane wins if you need a strong def every couple of minutes.

What is more important is you and how you feel with the spec. If you enjoy it you will perform better in every aspect of the raid, naturally. Thats what people trying to tell you. This doesn't count for the top 20 world guilds, but if you are in these, you already have 3-5 chars with 3 specs each ready and prepared.

[Biomega]

There is not a lot of knowledge, data or experience at all at this moment and won't be until 2 weeks into release.

I realize that, but there is still SOME around. PTR results, theorycrafting predictions, discussions of people, etc. I'm trying to tap into that, as best I can. As I keep saying, I know this data will be incomplete, and possibly completely off - but that doesn't mean I don't want to try and do the best I can to make the best decision. If it turns out wrong, so be it. I still tried to do what I can. And judging from past experiences, even rough heuristics in these matters tend to do better than mere coin flips (which would essentially be the alternative).

If you want to be prepared. Farm AP for all three weapons and bring them up to 75 until patch. Learn how to play all 3 specs and build muscle memory for all of them. Then just grind good relics for every weapon with good traits and crucible luck. Gear isn't mandatory, since it will get replaced really quick with the new raid.

Legendaries are my only concern. Everything else is easy to do. AK will mean catch-up to reasonable AL isn't difficult, raid gear as you said isn't the big factor. Legendaries, however, very much are. That's the entire reason I'm in this situation. If it was any other expansion, I'd just be ready to roll with whatever. But I can't pull 5 legendaries out of a hat on a week's notice. I have to start farming those now.

Sure you can sim every spec with new sets (which might still get changed, happened with frost 7.2.5 on release date) and see how well every spec does on a patchwerk fight. But guess what, there is no patchwerk fight.

This also isn't dps dependant. Frosts grants you more constant dmg and two iceblock. Arcane and fire are better if you need burst windows for certain mechanics. Fire wins in AOE, Arcane wins if you need a strong def every couple of minutes.

That's why I'm hoping for people with PTR experience, or with theory ideas involving what we know from the PTR. True that many fights might still change, but at least we can tell "fight X is single target only/mostly" or "fight Y has lots of add waves" and things like that. I can look at the journal myself, but for what to make of the raw info I'd be a fool to only rely on my own interpretation when there's so many people out there who no doubt have thought about it as well.

What is more important is you and how you feel with the spec. If you enjoy it you will perform better in every aspect of the raid, naturally. Thats what people trying to tell you. This doesn't count for the top 20 world guilds, but if you are in these, you already have 3-5 chars with 3 specs each ready and prepared.

I know what people are trying to say, but I really have no particular preference. Fire is fun, so is Frost, even Arcane has its appeal. I'm fine with playing either and enjoy them equally. It's like that on most of the classes I play, where I readily switch specs if necessary. There's been very few times over the years where I hated a particular spec or performed significantly worse with one (DPS) spec over another. My hunter, for example, I switch around between MM and BM frequently, and have orange ranks on either (some even on the same boss). I enjoy both specs for various reasons, and have no qualms switching for performance.

I appreciate what people are trying to say, and I absolutely agree that enjoyment and preference play a big role. However, please don't insist on that when I'm very clear about not having such a preference. If I did, I wouldn't be asking, I'd just play what I enjoy and not play what I don't enjoy.

[Afflik]

Instead of arguing with most people, and telling people their advise isn't what you want how about you delete this thread and just do the research on your own. Sim yourself, and research the 3 specs. You are wasting your own time, and everyone else who's tried to apply.

[Biomega]

Instead of arguing with most people, and telling people their advise isn't what you want how about you delete this thread and just do the research on your own. Sim yourself, and research the 3 specs. You are wasting your own time, and everyone else who's tried to apply.

This IS my research. I've done data research on my own, but I'm not conceited enough to believe that is the be-all-end-all. I'm looking for more opinions, more results, more perspectives. This isn't a problem with one simple, clear solution, because we lack the data to back it up. We have fragments of useful information everywhere, it's just a matter of bringing them together.

If you don't have useful input to contribute, that's fine. These aren't easy questions to answer. If they were, I wouldn't be in this situation.