Has Sylvanas Become Toxic to the Story?

[Dastreus]

Fookin' lame.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

I think so. I don't know how they can resolve her without making her a total villain, or redeeming her and cutting the story off.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Is there some confirmation about this cut content? Because they did pretty much leave it at a loose thread.

no confirmation, but Ion said that they "have plans for them in the future." So i assumed it was cut, as another lore youtuber has assumed it. SO what I should have said was that I assumed it was cut.

[Halyon]

Good for you? What a contribution to the thread.

Do point me to the rule that states that I need to write an essay to contribute to a thread, where a one-liner that does give an answer, if not outright, is insufficient?

...for which your own post also counts, aside from the replies.

[Maxilian]

NO she didn't. Most of the fog the Forsaken had created made Gilneas uninhabitable, meaning not even they can enter the damn Zone, hence why they're guarding it.

Like I always say, if the land isn't conquered, then you haven't won.

Well... not like Sylvanas actual plan was to conquer Gilneas, that was Garrosh plan, the Forsaken only deal with Gilneas is that they have made an enemy out of it (thanks to their previous warchief demands), so i guess friendlyimmolation is right, but so are you. (As Sylvanas won the battle, but not the war)

[Magnagarde]

The Gilneas chapter of WoW and the hatred between the two main characters behind it - Genn and Sylvanas - is one of the best stories Blizzard pulled off in Cataclysm and afterwards. I actually think they need to dwelve deeper into this particular storyline. Both are tragic characters and remind me of the storylines weaved through Warcraft 3. One got wronged, then wronged another which seeks revenge. The hate and tension wasn't dropped like a bomb on the players' heads, but instead developed gradually, with logic and reasoning.

[Jastall]

I think the problem with Sylvanas is her story doesnt move forward

Seriously. Her character is at a standstill since Cata, and even Cata didn't change her character so much as it changed her motivations and made her slide from an anti-hero into someone who's really just a huge bitch because she can get away with it.

And while I doubt her death is the logical course for the character, I do agree with the OP that Blizzard can't touch her now. First because parts of her fanbase are incredibly rabid, and second because killing yet another Warchief would be just stupid at this point.

Which is why she shouldn't have been made Warchief in the first place, but the genie's out of the bottle with this one.

[Magnagarde]

Seriously. Her character is at a standstill since Cata, and even Cata didn't change her character so much as it changed her motivations and made her slide from an anti-hero into someone who's really just a huge bitch because she can get away with it.

And while I doubt her death is the logical course for the character, I do agree with the OP that Blizzard can't touch her now. First because parts of her fanbase are incredibly rabid, and second because killing yet another Warchief would be just stupid at this point.

Which is why she shouldn't have been made Warchief in the first place, but the genie's out of the bottle with this one.

Her character would have a lot of space to develop, as would so many tied to the Eastern Kingdoms, if Blizzard ever decides to take a deep breath and take it easy with the penultimate threats one at a time. There is always one big bad guy and one big bad faction which doesn't allow Horde and Alliance specific themes to get enough development. The lore surrounding Gilneas is a small gem among the big bad guy themes we keep getting.

[Evangeliste]

So you are comparing Silvanas, a fully fleshed out character that has been in development since warcraft 3 to a loot piñata??

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it doesnt matter if it has a name, his whole purpose is being a loot pinata

No. He's the sole reason people like Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden with the rest of the Legion were able to dog the universe for... over 25,000 years.

The only loot pinata's in there aka Antorus are pretty much the other 50% of the bosses in like the "Portal Keeper". Only there to fill in the gaps... other before like, Goroth, Mistress Sass'zine, before that Elerethe Renferal and so on.

If you're going to try and pretend that "it doesn't mean anything" than please come up with a better reason than "loot pinata" and an explanation because really you add nothing to the topic at hand. And considering over the last decade there's been hundreds of loot pinata bosses, like the dungeons and raids since Vanilla than Argus really doesn't qualify - he's been involved in external media past the game unlike say Yor in Mana Tombs.

But to be honest, not sure it's really worth bothering since you contribute virtually zero to topics.

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I think so. I don't know how they can resolve her without making her a total villain, or redeeming her and cutting the story off.

They don't really need to do either. Her story can be anything they desire, she could given have a story of her finding immortality within the Shadowlands and such. Or with Alleria and the Void. It can be anything they wish, it's not stuck to being Garrosh v2 or Illidan v2. Thrall's story is still left open too, he left the Horde and lost his way with the Elements, they could explore him being without the Elements easily, everyone can have different turns.

[Dagoth Ur]

I would say it's exactly the opposite, Sylvanas has more potential story arcs then any other major character.

I am really interested in where they're gonna go with her as warchief after Legion.
She was clearly chosen for warchief as most conpetent and resourceful out of all the leaders to get the Horde through Legion invasion, but what will happen after that is what's gonna be interesting.

[Arrashi]

I would say it's exactly the opposite, Sylvanas has more potential story arcs then any other major character.

I am really interested in where they're gonna go with her as warchief after Legion.
She was clearly chosen for warchief as most conpetent and resourceful out of all the leaders to get the Horde through Legion invasion, but what will happen after that is what's gonna be interesting.

Mudmugs brew "spirits" will send her vision to pass leadership along with cold one. This time we gonna decide new leader with drunken wheel of fortune.

[Dagoth Ur]

Mudmugs brew "spirits" will send her vision to pass leadership along with cold one. This time we gonna decide new leader with drunken wheel of fortune.

I could see Sylvanas going on some sort of vision quest induced by Mudmug's brew. Whole questline would be her waking up half naked in Un'goro, retracing her steps and learning important lessons about being true leader.

[Jorah]

I think the problem with Sylvanas is her story doesnt move forward

The problem with Sylvanas is she stopping story development for Forsaken. They have like zero story progression outside Sylvanas' development.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The problem with Sylvanas is she stopping story development for Forsaken. They have like zero story progression outside Sylvanas' development.

Because in their case they really are nothing without her, also its not a character's fault that the race isn't developed

[Arrashi]

I could see Sylvanas going on some sort of vision quest induced by Mudmug's brew. Whole questline would be her waking up half naked in Un'goro, retracing her steps and learning important lessons about being true leader.

"You thought it was character development ? Too bad, it was me Lesson-of-Pandaria-chan all along !"

[Deleted]

The problem with Sylvanas is she stopping story development for Forsaken. They have like zero story progression outside Sylvanas' development.

Blizzard can easily develop Sylvanas while also developing the forsaken by actually writing about them. There are plenty Forsaken with potential for more character development, especially apothecaries would be interesting. But it is Blizzard to blame for being minimalistic writers, not a character.





And about sylvanas being warchief, there are pretty good reasons for it.

- Baine too young.
- Lor'themar doesn't enjoy ruling.
- Galywix... Doesn't require much of an explanation.
- Saurfang is too old and burned out.
- Sylvanas has the largest force in the horde.
- Sylvanas has proven to be a good tactician.

As a military leader, which the warchief is, she is the best choice.

[Eucep]

Is she toxic, imho, nope. Is she however at a point where they really need to make a choice? Yes.

No matter how big a fanboy someone is or how metal Sylvanas is with her Forsaken, they do unforgivable things in line with numerous enemies of alliance and horde who we already butcher all throughout Azeroth and beyond. It just feels unrealistic to just 'let them do as they please'.

So the choice is: Make her finally become a victim of our ire. Or to remove a part of her antagonistic nature.

She does not need a full redemption, that would be kind of counter to the idea behind her.

What I hope is that she gets humbled enough in the coming expansion that she knows she's been used and her fears been used against her. (The Val'kyr saving her from eternal damnation having been an old god ploy.)

[Jorah]

Because in their case they really are nothing without her, also its not a character's fault that the race isn't developed

That's the problem of Forsaken. Many people like you don't see them without Sylvanas and Blizzard doesn't help. They really missed opportunity after WoTLK when they could write Forsaken as race after Sylvanas' suicide.

I think Alonsus Faol and Calia Menethil were added in Legion as future material for Forsaken and maybe one of them will lead them after Sylvanas' demise.

And about sylvanas being warchief, there are pretty good reasons for it.

- Baine too young.

Anduin young too but Blizzard still made him new High King.

- Saurfang is too old and burned out.

Velen also old but still Draenei's leader and kicking demons at frontline. Saurfang would be the most logical choice for new Warchief - he still have strength to lead and fight like warrior class hall quest shows.

- Sylvanas has proven to be a good tactician.

Yea sure. /sarcasm

[Piamonte]

No. He's the sole reason people like Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden with the rest of the Legion were able to dog the universe for... over 25,000 years.

The only loot pinata's in there aka Antorus are pretty much the other 50% of the bosses in like the "Portal Keeper". Only there to fill in the gaps... other before like, Goroth, Mistress Sass'zine, before that Elerethe Renferal and so on.

If you're going to try and pretend that "it doesn't mean anything" than please come up with a better reason than "loot pinata" and an explanation because really you add nothing to the topic at hand. And considering over the last decade there's been hundreds of loot pinata bosses, like the dungeons and raids since Vanilla than Argus really doesn't qualify - he's been involved in external media past the game unlike say Yor in Mana Tombs.

But to be honest, not sure it's really worth bothering since you contribute virtually zero to topics.

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They don't really need to do either. Her story can be anything they desire, she could given have a story of her finding immortality within the Shadowlands and such. Or with Alleria and the Void. It can be anything they wish, it's not stuck to being Garrosh v2 or Illidan v2. Thrall's story is still left open too, he left the Horde and lost his way with the Elements, they could explore him being without the Elements easily, everyone can have different turns.

wow, you must be really important around here to decide who contributes to the topic and who doesnt, but whatever. Argus is a plotdevice, it is there to explain something relevant to the story or to make the story go forward, a place can fulfil the same role jus as fine, and lets accept it, until recently argus was just that, a place.

so sumarizing:
-A place is not a character
-A plotdevice is not a character

if you cant make the distinction, thats on you

[Deleted]

Anduin young too but Blizzard still made him new High King.

Anduin has received enough development to show he would be a good leader, Baine has done nothing, he would be just like Anduin but without any character. He also never displayed any leadership skills.

Velen also old but still Draenei's leader and kicking demons at frontline. Saurfang would be the most logical choice for new Warchief - he still have strength to lead and fight like warrior class hall quest shows.

We don't know how old Draenei get so we have no way to know if he's actually old for a Draenei while Saurfang is old and has never been shown to be a leader nor wanting to be a leader. He is a great advisor and there is nothing wrong with that position.

Yea sure. /sarcasm

Commanded the defense of Quel'thalas and only lost because she was fighting against an army that raised everyone it slain.
Started the forsaken rebellion against Arthas.
Helped out the Blood Elves against the scourge and recruited them to the horde.
Has kept her borders secure for about 10 years and is still gaining land.
Won the war against Gilneas.
Won the battle of Andorhal.

That's more than any of the other leaders.