Stop flipping tables about Dev Q&A

[Benomatic]

I'm just lazy, bitter, twisted and resentful.

Leveling alts this expansion is like watching Mad Men or Sons of Anarchy all over again. It just doesn't benefit me due to nihilism involved. Stick with my main and enjoy the initial journey. Re-level an alt next expansion and hope for better catch ups.

[Teri]

I'm just lazy, bitter, twisted and resentful.

Leveling alts this expansion is like watching Mad Men or Sons of Anarchy all over again. It just doesn't benefit me due to nihilism involved. Stick with my main and enjoy the initial journey. Re-level an alt next expansion and hope for better catch ups.

Legendaries and alts remain the worst part of the expansion for me, but I do have 8 characters on their way to 950 followers, and I do enjoy the free gold/rep

AP and such is fine. Legendary-like systems (hidden "bad luck protection", random drops out of a huge pool of them) however could be the one-thing that makes or breaks the next expansion decision for me.

[Benomatic]

Legendaries and alts remain the worst part of the expansion for me, but I do have 8 characters on their way to 950 followers, and I do enjoy the free gold/rep

AP and such is fine. Legendary-like systems (hidden "bad luck protection", random drops out of a huge pool of them) however could be the one-thing that makes or breaks the next expansion decision for me.

I did an account purge and hated myself for it, I think this expansion really hurt my enjoyment of alts. I wasn't forced or needed to delete alts, but I guess it was theraputic. So I keep myself to 2 alts now.

[SirCowdog]

the difference is that almost every game dev is a player (awkward not to be), and not even 1% of players are game devs. That doesn't make devs perfect, but they have more knowledge of the 2 sides (what is like to play and what is like to develop something playable) and players only know "how they want to play", or "how they think it should be".

I'm going to disagree with you here. A professional gamer likely spends several times the amount of hours playing that any dev can possibly manage. There's also a pretty big difference when you're doing something because you enjoy it vs doing something because you have to as part of your job.

And you have to stop and consider that due to the dev teams swapping out, and many leaders at Blizzard have moved on to other projects, that there are now players who have been with the game longer than many devs.

The perspective of a dev is pretty important, but I don't think for a second that it's fair for the perspective of the players to be dismissed so easily.

[Shadowbane]

For some people is easy..for some is impossible, based on knowledge, skills and abilities..If you or anyone find his/her job too hard...that`s not for you...)

Uhhhh.. I agree? What gave you the impression otherwise? I'm sure you tell the chef at a restaurant how to better cook your food because he probably knows better than you already, and I'm sure you don't tell you doctor how to treat your illnesses for the same reason, so I'm in agreement. But suddenly, when it comes to giving feedback on a game, a lot of players will think they're more informed than the game developers who make it and are overly certain about their suggestions and ideas. Those are the people I'm talking about.

'As a customer,' you say, sure, you say you don't need to know and don't care, for the most part. That's fine. You don't need extensive game development knowledge to play a game for fun. If you're one of those customers talking about how to fix the game, though, surely it would do well to learn a little. Besides anyone who works in any service that deals with customers will tell you, contrary to the saying, the customer is not always right. In fact, the customer is wrong, more often than not, but you have to put up with them just like Blizzard puts up with a thousand angry idiots moaning about their game every day.

[Deleted]

I'm sure you tell the chef at a restaurant how to better cook your food because he probably knows better than you already,

I'm sure that when you go to a restaurant, order a medium-rare steak and the chef serves you a nicely burnt dog turd, you enthusiastically devour the morsel, since the chef has the white hat on his head and you don't. It's super cool mate as long as it's just you who does it. Trying to tell others to eat their shit gladly is not exactly going to work though, sorry to break your bubble.
Oh and btw quite a few of WoW players are software developers. Some of them are Michelin chefs chortling at excuses of failing Wendy's cooks by your metaphor.

[Deleted]

Legendaries and alts remain the worst part of the expansion for me, but I do have 8 characters on their way to 950 followers, and I do enjoy the free gold/rep

AP and such is fine. Legendary-like systems (hidden "bad luck protection", random drops out of a huge pool of them) however could be the one-thing that makes or breaks the next expansion decision for me.

Well I at least managed to get some mage tower challenges done on alts, beside financing some extra expenses like the 2 mio spider mount and the 1 mio pet from the mad merchant and other neat things. But yes, the legendary RNG ordeal is very bad for the motivation of playing alts. Also, the unlocking of artifact skins... 3 locked behind organised raiding... meh :/

[Eurhetemec]

Oh and btw quite a few of WoW players are software developers. Some of them are Michelin chefs chortling at excuses of failing Wendy's cooks by your metaphor.

This is a fascinating analogy, because it's so bananas.

You think WoW, an incredibly successful game, which has some exceptional game design, which virtually every other MMO copies slavishly, is the bad cook?

That makes zero sense.

Who are these "michelin chefs", who presumably run MMOs which are better-regarded than WoW? Go on, do tell.

[Deleted]

This is a fascinating analogy, because it's so bananas.

You think WoW, an incredibly successful game, which has some exceptional game design, which virtually every other MMO copies slavishly, is the bad cook?

That makes zero sense.

Who are these "michelin chefs", who presumably run MMOs which are better-regarded than WoW? Go on, do tell.

It's Alastair up on Draenor and Johnny who's mostly on Ravencrest.
(Oh wait; if Alastair is still on Draenor, this is not even random shit that your "challenge" deserves, since he was one of the main brains behind NYSE's Data Fabric).

Thanks for saying that once in London you'll stick with Mac Donald's all the way instead of, say, going to Whitecross or Leather Lane or Camden Lock for food because obviously all those AREAS combined have incomparably less commercial success than worldwide Mac.

MacDonald's is INCREDIBLY successful, so incredibly I keep asking myself how in the world is such level of commercial success is possible when they mostly serve warm plastic. Then I remember a huge lot of people have just as much clue about food as you have about software development.

Commercial software development contains a couple more broad categories than making of WoW clones, just like Wendy's is a very different food from Greenhouse at Hay's Mews. Once you get over this, your life will never be the same.

Of course, the goal of good cooking is not always making a lot of money. The exact same goes for MMOs.

[Eurhetemec]

Thanks for saying that once in London you'll stick with Mac Donald's all the way instead of, say, going to Whitecross or Leather Lane or Camden Lock for food because obviously all those AREAS combined have incomparably less commercial success than worldwide Mac.

I'm a Londoner, and you sound nuts here, completely nuts. Not only am I Londoner, I'm posh, and have been to multiple Michelin-starred restaurants here. What are you gibbering about here? What are you even trying to say? It sounds like you're someone who has come to London recently, and is just trying to throw some area-names he's heard of as having good food around. There are no Michelin-star restaurants in Whitecross or "Camden Lock" (which precisely ZERO Londoners call that area btw), AFAICT and I can only find one on Leather Lane. I mean, fuck London is a mediocre city for Michelin stars anyway - you want somewhere like Tokyo (though I believe there has been some controversy over that). It's a great city for good street food and small, fun restaurants, but Michelin stars? Meh.

Of course, the goal of good cooking is not always making a lot of money. The exact same goes for MMOs.

So where are the Michelin MMOs? Serious question, if WoW is McDonalds, and there are Michelin-grade MMOs out there, where are they?

If they exist, great. If they don't, please, with respect, shut the fuck up about this "McDonalds" nonsense. Your NYSE buddy is a lovely guy I'm sure, but he's just a total and utter shit-talker until he decides to bring out a "Michelin star" MMO. Crowdfunding is out there. Indie MMO development is a thing. So why has he not done it?

[Deleted]

I'm a Londoner, and you sound nuts here, completely nuts. Not only am I Londoner, I'm posh, and have been to multiple Michelin-starred restaurants here.

I am Queen Elisabeth II for that matter and you sound nuts to me. I have been to every last Michelin-starred restaurant in the world and outside. This fact alone proves you obviously insane. Go look for help.

What are you gibbering about here? What are you even trying to say? It sounds like you're someone who has come to London recently, and is just trying to throw some area-names he's heard of as having good food around.

As opposed to you, I'm able to visit each of these places whenever needed, so when I first heard about Camden Town, I went there to see and so on. "Camden Lock" was a control phrase, just like the mention of Greenhouse. Thanks for confirming your actual experience of London and of premium dining consists entirely of Google searches.

Street food places were in my post as a constructive response to your retarded conflation of all software development into one, very narrow area of it - MMOs. I gave you an analogy much closer to your babbling, while still presenting the world of difference between Watcher and a competent director. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered, you wouldn't get it anyway.

If they exist, great. If they don't shut the fuck up. Your NYSE buddy is a lovely guy I'm sure, but he's just a total shit-talker until he decides to bring out a "Michelin star" MMO.

I love the sheer degree to which you got triggered. Keep screeching mate. By contributing to the (fairly right) perception that Blizdevs are pretty much exclusively defeneded by autists you only strengthen my point If you had any clue about the software I talked about, you'd know what challenges involved are the same in larger MMOs and, for example, cloud video production.

So you have no shade of a clue about food, about software development and about London. Thanks for screeching it all out loud instead of covering the sad reality under some convoluted pretences

[Eurhetemec]

As opposed to you, I'm able to visit each of these places whenever needed, so when I first heard about Camden Town, I went there to see and so on. "Camden Lock" was a control phrase, just like the mention of Greenhouse. Thanks for confirming your actual experience of London and of premium dining consists entirely of Google searches.

Yeah, no. I don't think so mate. You're just someone making vague claims what you can't back up and getting upset when called on them.

I love the sheer degree to which you got triggered. Keep screeching mate. By contributing to the (fairly right) perception that Blizdevs are pretty much exclusively defeneded by autists you only strengthen my point If you had any clue about the software I talked about, you'd know what challenges involved are the same in larger MMOs and, for example, cloud video production.

We're talking about MMOs specifically, not "software development" in general. You made specific claims, but have completely failed to back them up, and resorted to calling me an "autist". That's pretty unpleasant behaviour and doesn't help your case.

So you have no shade of a clue about food, about software development and about London. Thanks for screeching it all out loud instead of covering the sad reality under some convoluted pretences

As far as I can see you've just admitted to lying, refused to back up any of your claims, and called me an "autist" repeatedly. That doesn't really seem to support your position.

[Deleted]

Yeah, no. I don't think so mate. You're just someone making vague claims what you can't back up and getting upset when called on them.

Talking to the mirror again? Ah, that's what you meant by "posh" I guess

We're talking about MMOs specifically, not "software development" in general. You made specific claims, but have completely failed to back them up, and resorted to calling me an "autist". That's pretty unpleasant behaviour and doesn't help your case.

I was talking about software development, you kept talking out of your lower orifice. That is, indeed, fairly poor behaviour and doesn't help your case. If you actually have one.

As far as I can see you've just admitted to lying, refused to back up any of your claims, and called me an "autist" repeatedly. That doesn't really seem to support your position.

As far as I can see you've just admitted to random accusations with no link to any actual points ever made. That doesn't indeed seem to support your position.

[Shadowbane]

I'm sure that when you go to a restaurant, order a medium-rare steak and the chef serves you a nicely burnt dog turd, you enthusiastically devour the morsel, since the chef has the white hat on his head and you don't

There's a lot to be said about an analogy contrasting a decade old game with millions of players to a burnt steak in terms of how literally to compare them, but whilst we're still at it, it's not like I'd eat a burnt one happily. The point is that some players would want a burnt steak if they felt it would be better, regardless of well a chef cooked it, because they think they know better. That's fine, too, like you said, if it was just me. But these people want burnt steak for everyone, and we're talking about experienced people at the helm of a company worth lots of money here, not the part-timer cooks at the greasy diner down the road who're lore liable to burn this metaphorical steak.

Of course there are players with a depth of knowledge in fields that might afford them information about how / why certain things are done or why they are the way they are, e.g I do 3D animation myself and did some classes under Blizzard's senior animator. But most players don't have that sort of knowledge.

The case is players thinking they know better than the developers in most matters, you know the kind, the ones who could program something better in an hour or could do some job they think the devs can't - not because they actually can but because they don't know enough to know they can't. The point OP is making here, lest we all forget, is that Blizzard gets a lot of crap from players who think they know better when they really don't. That's hardly just a Blizzard thing, either. Games companies everywhere get a lot of stick.

[Deleted]

There's a lot to be said about an analogy contrasting a decade old game with millions of players to a burnt steak in terms of how literally to compare them, but whilst we're still at it, it's not like I'd eat a burnt one happily. The point is that some players would want a burnt steak if they felt it would be better, regardless of well a chef cooked it, because they think they know better. That's fine, too, like you said, if it was just me. But these people want burnt steak for everyone, and we're talking about experienced people at the helm of a company worth lots of money here, not the part-timer cooks at the greasy diner down the road who're lore liable to burn this metaphorical steak.

Of course there are players with a depth of knowledge in fields that might afford them information about how / why certain things are done or why they are the way they are, e.g I do 3D animation myself and did some classes under Blizzard's senior animator. But most players don't have that sort of knowledge.

The case is players thinking they know better than the developers in most matters, you know the kind, the ones who could program something better in an hour or could do some job they think the devs can't - not because they actually can but because they don't know enough to know they can't. The point OP is making here, lest we all forget, is that Blizzard gets a lot of crap from players who think they know better when they really don't. That's hardly just a Blizzard thing, either. Games companies everywhere get a lot of stick.

I do agree everyone is a Kernighan and Ritchie at the same time while on their sofas. What Eurhetemec did however, was the exact opposite of that and just as reasonable: extreme case of argument to authority, which happens to be argument to authority which has just performed very disappointingly.

[madmonarch]

The bolded part.. that is absolutely impossible to do if you're serving millions of people at once. It may be possible if you can cook each meal separately for the individual. Not when you're cooking for millions at a time.

You can divide those millions into groups and serve slightly varying meals. Legendaries/TF are great for casual play and terrible for some degree of hardcore - so divide those groups! Make legendaries targetable along with RNG drop, cap TF at normal raid ilvl then raise that cap for e.g. +2 every week, make "rested AP" or balance artifact levels vs AK - bam, there's enjoyable upgrades for laid back players and no need to farm 24/7 for competitive raiders.
So you're not shoving kilograms of lettuce to someone who wants only one bbq rib.

[Armourboy]

If you honestly believe the issue and disconnect is players feedback, well you should probably do a bit more reading than just general threads on MMO-Champion. From Wrath on for me ( which is the point where I really started paying attention to it) there has been more than one instance of players giving Blizzard pages upon pages of feedback that Blizzard has ignored or just flat out told players they were wrong.

I've seen class after class spend pages going over various issues in Beta's all to end up going live and then the Dev's need to either circle around and adjust them, or in some cases basically just tell people that it's broke and won't be fixed until the next expansion. I and many others going into Cata went back and forth for pages with Ghostcrawler telling him that mana was just too much of an issue at lower gear levels for healers and it was going to cause problems, only to be told we were wrong, and then of course later on told we were right. I've seen things like Legendaries in the expansion brought up as a problem in beta, only to watch them push it live and we end up seeing the very issues Blizzard was warned about. DK's being insanely OP in Wrath? Yup Blizzard was warned.

When you go back and look at most of those posts in Beta they start out very civil and to the point. The longer it goes without being corrected or adjusted the less civil it gets to the point it can be down right toxic. People are only going to but their head against things for so long before they get ticked. In fact, pretty much if you find an issue in an expansion you can almost bet there was a beta thread on it. Players don't miss much these days.

People who say the communication is better in this expansion obviously weren't around for the days of Ghostcrawler. I've never seen more back and forth discussion as we did then. Whatever flaws he may have had as a designer, communication was not one of those. In that aspect he has never been replaced. That doesn't mean we all liked what he had to say ( pointing to the " get good " statements talking about heroics ) but at least something was being said.

Now don't confuse my statements with the belief that Blizzard is always wrong and players are always right. There are instances where Blizzard kind of has to fight through the turmoil to prove it's going to be ok and they are right ( I think Order Halls in this expansion falls into the category ).