Broken Shore (Yes Again)!!!

[Highwhale]

When i first time saw Broken Shore cinematic i have had feeling i seen it before.



And then i remembered! Skip to 2.56



Sylvanas is Loghain. Varian is Duncan and Vol'jin is Cailan.

[Arrashi]

Ugh....nice ? Im not sure what the point of this thread is ?

[Rendark]

So what are you trying to say? The situations have nothing to do with the each other.

[Orby]

That sequence you are comparing isn't original it's been done millions of times in movies.

Army fights, reinforcements retreat in twist.... its been done to death. Although I am a sucker for those moments in movies

Dragon Age itsef was inspired heavily from Game of Thrones (back before it was famous for being a TV show) :P

[zlygork]

I am sure dragon age (or braveheart for that matter) were the first stories depicting betrayal in a battle front, not like such stories were probably made before writing was invented
You get a point cuz dragon age origins was the shit, tho.

[Aucald]

Not really the same situation, IMO. Cailan and Duncan's death in DA:O at Ostagar involved the direct betrayal of a war hero and trusted lieutenant - Loghain was presumed to be completely on their side until his sudden heel-face turn and subsequent retreat that doomed them. The situations would be more similar if the Darkspawn at Ostagar had prepared an intelligent trap for the heroes which is what the Legion did at the Broken Shore. You could make an argument that Sylvanas is similar to Loghain, but many people don't find her exit from the Broken Shore to be tantamount to betrayal, whereas Loghain enjoyed a 0% approval rate once his betrayal had become common knowledge.

[Highwhale]

Not really the same situation, IMO. Cailan and Duncan's death in DA:O at Ostagar involved the direct betrayal of a war hero and trusted lieutenant - Loghain was presumed to be completely on their side until his sudden heel-face turn and subsequent retreat that doomed them. The situations would be more similar if the Darkspawn at Ostagar had prepared an intelligent trap for the heroes which is what the Legion did at the Broken Shore. You could make an argument that Sylvanas is similar to Loghain, but many people don't find her exit from the Broken Shore to be tantamount to betrayal, whereas Loghain enjoyed a 0% approval rate once his betrayal had become common knowledge.

Yea BUT. Sylvanas and Loghain both ordered retreat thinking it would save their kingdom/people in their twisted way of thinking.

I am sure dragon age (or braveheart for that matter) were the first stories depicting betrayal in a battle front, not like such stories were probably made before writing was invented
You get a point cuz dragon age origins was the shit, tho.

DAO was shit? You mother is. Or who ever bring you into this world.

[Arrashi]

Yea BUT. Sylvanas and Loghain both ordered retreat thinking it would save their kingdom/people in their twisted way of thinking.

DAO was shit? You mother is. Or who ever bring you into this world.

How was sylvanas retreated result of "twisted" thinking ? It was sound tactical decision.

Also, geez that ad hominem.

[alt-ithist]

Yea BUT. Sylvanas and Loghain both ordered retreat thinking it would save their kingdom/people in their twisted way of thinking.



DAO was shit? You mother is. Or who ever bring you into this world.

“Was THE shit”, that’s a different then “was shit”. First one means was awesome, which it was.

[Highwhale]

“Was THE shit”, that’s a different then “was shit”. First one means was awesome, which it was.

Oh... Then sorry mate whoever's mother i insulted. My apologies.

[zlygork]

Oh... Then sorry mate whoever's mother i insulted. My apologies.

Haha all good, my mother forgives you.

[Aucald]

Yea BUT. Sylvanas and Loghain both ordered retreat thinking it would save their kingdom/people in their twisted way of thinking.

Sylvanas didn't order the retreat, though; Vol'jin did with a plea requesting her to not let the assembled leaders die. Sylvanas and the Horde were also under an overwhelming attack that would've collapsed in any case whereas Loghain's gambit was a legitimate coup against Cailan (as he felt Cailan wasn't a good leader for Ferelden as well as a number of more personal reasons). The Horde would've been crushed had they remained in position and Loghain actually held the bulk of Ferelden's army away from Ostagar to ensure Cailan's death, the situations are quite different.

[Highwhale]

How was sylvanas retreated result of "twisted" thinking ? It was sound tactical decision.

Also, geez that ad hominem.

I mean they both cared only about Horde/Ferelden people when didn't gave a shit about Alliance/Grey Wardens.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas didn't order the retreat, though; Vol'jin did with a plea requesting her to not let the assembled leaders die. Sylvanas and the Horde were also under an overwhelming attack that would've collapsed in any case whereas Loghain's gambit was a legitimate coup against Cailan (as he felt Cailan wasn't a good leader for Ferelden as well as a number of more personal reasons). The Horde would've been crushed had they remained in position and Loghain actually held the bulk of Ferelden's army away from Ostagar to ensure Cailan's death, the situations are quite different.

Loghain belived Cailan will bring Ferelden back into Orlais fold. I also think if Loghain did remained at Ostagar his army too would be destroyed. But still no matter what Betrayal is Betrayal for both of them.

[Alvito]

Yea BUT. Sylvanas and Loghain both ordered retreat thinking it would save their kingdom/people in their twisted way of thinking.



DAO was shit? You mother is. Or who ever bring you into this world.

They order a retreat so they aren't all wiped out, it isn't some betrayal.

[Highwhale]

They order a retreat so they aren't all wiped out, it isn't some betrayal.

They were allies. Sylvanas retreated to save her people - yea noble did - but its still betrayal.

[Arrashi]

They were allies. Sylvanas retreated to save her people - yea noble did - but its still betrayal.

They weren't allies. They were fighting common enemy at same time. They had no obligations to each other.

[Aucald]

Loghain belived Cailan will bring Ferelden back into Orlais fold. I also think if Loghain did remained at Ostagar his army too would be destroyed. But still no matter what Betrayal is Betrayal for both of them.

Difficult to say - the Darkspawn arrayed at Ostagar wasn't an insurmountable obstacle for Ferelden's military, but it's still possible they might've lost. Cailan seemed pretty assured of victory and treated the exercise as a PR stunt, though he also wasn't a very strategic mind when it comes down to it. The main crux is whether or not Sylvanas, in the case of the Broken Shore, actually betrayed anyone by retreating - and while YMMV, I'm inclined to think the answer is essentially "no." Faced with certain death had they remained, being overrun by Legion infantry and fired on by multiple Legion dreadnoughts at their position, her retreat from the field wasn't really an unexpected or unrealistic reaction. Varian's ignorance of the Horde's plight isn't tantamount to their objective betrayal, either - Varian might've felt betrayed, of course, but the truth of the matter is that the battle was essentially lost already.

Hindsight being 20/20, we now know that the Broken Shore was essentially a giant trap that both the Horde and Alliance fell into - a trap engineered by the Dreadlord Detheroc masquerading as Matthias Shaw (the head of Stormwind's military intelligence branch), providing false intel to Alliance High Command by understating the extent of the Legion's forces. Both the Horde and the Alliance were doomed from the word go, set-up by the Dreadlords and delivered unto a waiting Gul'dan with an overwhelming Legion force at his back.

[Alvito]

They were allies. Sylvanas retreated to save her people - yea noble did - but its still betrayal.

Having your best warriors and leaders wiped out for a battle you can't win when there are others to be fought isn't a betrayal. Hell the Alliance retreats moments later and for all they know the Horde is still fighting and they just leave. Just because they couldn't hold the ridge doesn't mean they weren't still there.

[Aucald]

Having your best warriors and leaders wiped out for a battle you can't win when there are others to be fought isn't a betrayal. Hell the Alliance retreats moments later and for all they know the Horde is still fighting and they just leave. Just because they couldn't hold the ridge doesn't mean they weren't still there.

Varian and the Alliance on the field at the Broken Shore both heard Sylvanas' Val'kyr horn (and likely knew of its significance), and even if they didn't Varian at least saw the ledge position previously occupied by Sylvanas' archers be replaced with Legion Doomguard and other infantry indicating that the Horde flank had been lost to the Legion. This still doesn't make the Horde retreat a betrayal of any kind, at least in my view - had they remained the Horde would've been crushed, same for the Alliance after Gul'dan called down the Fel Reaver to take out the Alliance sky-ship.

[TheFirstOnes]

How dare you post Varian's death again.

*Cries in wanting to have helped Varian, but couldn't* :'(