1. #4641
    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    Yeah, but to flat out say that "CIG is now denying refunds because 3.0 is out" was what I was addressing. The answer being "no, they're not denying anything more than usual, just taking longer due to being busy."

    EDIT: Also, what financial disclosure was ever on the ToS? Source? Because this is the full change and I do not see anything regarding what you mentioned (but my legalese is a bit rough).

    EDIT 2: Do you happen to mean the Financial Accountability? If so, then yeah, it got a bit murkier for newer buyers (limited more so to what you were saying), but anyone that had purchased prior to the change are still held to the old ToS, as stated in the update.
    Yeah that's the one. My concern with it is that CIG at one point felt that it was appropriate (for a crowdfunding project) to put that in there in the first place but when the time came, postponed it and ultimately backed down on it entirely.

    It was originally a genuine and thoughtful thing. That they then felt the need to remove it to me says that they were either 1. Never serious in the first place (misled us) or 2. That they were serious but don't want us to see something. Could show Chris' mismanagement/priority/whatever that would spill negative light on him. It's anybody's guess really, but to me there was no good reason for doing that. It just tells me they have incentive to hide something.

  2. #4642
    Deleted
    let's relax and laugh a bit

    Old McCrobberts had a game ELELE
    And in that game he had some bugs ELELE
    With a jpeg here and a demo there
    Some refunds
    No refunds
    Never any refunds
    Old McCrobberts went to jail HEHEHEHEHE
    Please post productively and don't troll. Infracted. -Edge
    Last edited by Edge-; 2017-10-12 at 06:41 PM.

  3. #4643
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    It's already part of the kickstarter goals to make the documentary, CIG has been filming since they started the project. We've seen parts of it last citizencon.
    I don't mean a CIG-produced one, although it may eventually be made out of footage they release. I mean like an actual, unbiased look at how the development of this game went down.

  4. #4644
    Bloodsail Admiral Odeezee's Avatar
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    it's amazing how people take so much time out of their day to hate on something that they claim to not like yet they could just step away and move on with their lives. very sad.

    anyway, great news for those of us looking forward to 3.0 coming out! 3.0 with Evocati just another step closer; PTU then live release of Alpha 3.0! the game looks amazing from what i have seen so far i will share some of the videos i have seen, though keep in mind these videos are not indicative of actual gameplay as they are used for bug-reporting purposes.



    very promising! looking forward to actually getting my hands on this update.
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  5. #4645
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    it's amazing how people take so much time out of their day to hate on something that they claim to not like yet they could just step away and move on with their lives. very sad.
    Sad? You think it takes a lot of time or effort to reply to these posts? To read them?

    SC isn't that important and reading a few posts isn't difficult.

    Perhaps you could explain why it seems virtually forbidden to speak ill of the game and criticise its development? Why pointing out any of the flaws seems to be justification to be called a "hater"

    Because contrary to your assertion, I support Star Citizen. I would love for Star Citizen to come out and meet all its promises.

    I simply have severe reservations about CIGs ability to deliver the game.

    There is literally nothing they have produced that tells me they have the skill or experience or money to make these games work.

    Pointing out the reasons why this is so seems to be more than enough to label me a "hater". Devotees of Star Citizen never seem to be able to point out where I am wrong...I am just a "hater" and therefore somehow unworthy of a response.

    anyway, great news for those of us looking forward to 3.0 coming out! 3.0 with Evocati just another step closer; PTU then live release of Alpha 3.0! the game looks amazing from what i have seen so far i will share some of the videos i have seen, though keep in mind these videos are not indicative of actual gameplay as they are used for bug-reporting purposes.
    Yes...we've all seen the leaked videos. I frankly don't see the point of the Evocati program as a proper professional QA program should be catching these bugs in house before the public has a chance to see them.

    CIG took the time and effort to add a digital watermark scheme that is easily bypassed by turning the graphics mode down. They didn't stop the leaks...they merely changed the narrative from "Golly...that's buggy" to "Golly...that's buggy AND it looks awful".

    As it is, I've seen the GC17 demo. Star Citizen didn't have good graphics there for the most part. That too is an area of concern. The best looking thing about the game so far are the planets, then the ships then the character models....those look very 2010.

    As it is, those leaked videos are showing that CIG haven't even fixed basic issues such as their physics grid (I'm assuming the problems are with the grid and not with their physics engine). This would be yet another core system of the game that still needs work.

    Because it isn't the fact that the game is buggy that is so concerning. No...its a preAlpha tech demo. I expect bugs.

    Its first of all, the lack of progress in the development of the game
    Its second, the way CIG treats its backers
    Third, Chris Roberts history as a developer.

    To put it bluntly....
    the game is taking too long to produce an Alpha. Its been over six years now and the first playable is nowhere in sight. Star Citizen still has issues with its game engine, CIG is openly admitting it is still developing it, its flight model needs a vast amount of work, the netcode is effectively MIA and CR still doesn't seem to have locked down the basics such as how many players per server or instance.

    Any competent developer would have had all this and more effectively locked down years ago. They would need to to avoid all the issues CIG are experiencing.

    That CIG hasn't carried out such basic foundational work is a huge red flag. Its something which is causing them to extend the development time, something which increases costs.

    There is a reason why best practise is to build the base first...it makes the entire development so much cheaper, quicker and more reliable.

    CIG aren't doing that, this is a big reason why work is dragging and costs have soared, and the best response I've gotten is "Star Citizen isn't doing normal".

    Chris Roberts once boasted that he could run his company on one fifth the profits of a traditional developer because he didn't have to shate money and profits with a publisher. That statement only works if his costs aren't higher.

    3.0 appears to be a demo that is fun...but hugely buggy. Its good that it is fun but the bugs also indicate that the game has a lot of core, fundamental issues that need fixing. Issues that would have been avoided under a "normal" development process.

    As it is, CIG are progressing the game. 3.0 is to be welcomed. But CIG are producing this game at one fifth the speed and at ten times the cost that would be expected from other teams.

    This despite their $110 million spend and 400 people.

    I believe nonetheless that Star Citizen can be made and can live up to its promise. So long as the money holds out.

    I think we all have read the recent article which puts the typical development cost at about $13,000 per developer per month. That includes the dev, licenses and equipment so he can work, entitlements such as pension costs and the like.

    If we use the undershoot of $10,000 per month instead....300 devs would require a bill of $3 million a month. CIG hasn't raised $3 million a month for quite some time.

    How long can their money hold out if these figures are anywhere near accurate? Of course, maybe they are underpaying their devs even more than I assume...but that also implies less experienced less productive staff and so longer development times.

    How accurate are these figures? Take F42. $15 million in one year and say a team of 100. That's $150,000 per person per year or about $12,500 a month.

    Essentially...the pathway to success in this game appears very narrow. Development is much slower than it has any right to be, costs are much higher.

    I believe I can explain why....Chris Roberts.

    Because of Chris Roberts, years of work were tossed.

    He originally planned a WC successor...and it seems doubtful he carried out any sort of feasibility study for the MMO he has changed the game into.
    There has been feature creep and bloat because of him.
    Chris Roberts made the choice of engine.
    Chris Roberts is prioritising development he can hype over development of core systems.
    Chris Roberts didn't keep third parties up to speed on the game engine ensuring their work needed to be redone
    Chris Roberts made pretty much the same mistake within CIG...engine changes are forcing CIG to rework a lot of game assets and systems

    And more. Simply going by what is reported and what is shown, CIG has a poor manager.

    Am I a SC "hater"? No. But it is becoming increasingly evident that CIG are having issues and seem very unlikely to have the funding available to complete the game as promised.

    The information we have suggests a spend to date of about $110 million. The amount raised is $160 million...not counting outside investors, loans or refunds leaving a buffer of $50million. At $3 million a month, that's about $500k more than they raise, so enough for 100 months of development if funding efforts remain as they are....which seems not impossible but unlikely.

    That $50million buffer also has to pay for publication, hosting and marketing costs for two games. Its already inadequate for that task unless CIG don't plan on marketing it.

    Is Star Citizen marked for greatness? More and more, its looking more akin to Daikatana or DNF than Deus Ex or the Witcher series.

    And thats really disappointing.
    Last edited by KyrtF; 2017-10-13 at 08:07 PM.

  6. #4646
    Deleted
    there is definitevly something big going on

    suddenly , in the past 72 hours, there are tons of denied refunds stories

    ofc some maybe are fake, but also there were fake refund stories even before

    huge increase in refund topics posted by lots of 1 year old reddit account, for sure something is happening

    i don't see any reason other than CIG are finally low on funds, makes sense if you look at their funding graph, 40% of their income comes in the last 2 months of the year

    if Citizen Con and November+december 2017 are low on funding they may fall in Q1 2018

    ======================================

    second post

    Star Citizen is a fascinating world indeed

    Can I... can I tell you a secret?

    Hold on to your panties though because this is going to blow you away.

    Are you ready?


    Ok. Here we go:

    The backers don’t actually play games.

    They don’t even play Star Citizen when it iterates out.

    The game they’re in is a meta social game, and they’re already playing it.

    Star Citizen coming out would actually hurt the game they’re currently winning at and enjoying.

    They won’t gravitate to another game because they don’t actually want to play the game.

    What will eventually happen though is people will get bored. The ELE as it happens may just be the simple fact that they no longer want to spend money on lies. Once their buddies leave their discord’s, and the role play dries up, and there are too many holes in the lore, and the reality of the game solidifies, it comes apart.

    I don’t have links to my blog, but I’ll say it again:

    Star Citizen coming out and being developed will kill Star Citizen.

    It’s fuel is the dreams and fantasies of 40-something’s who are fighting to rekindle a lost art they fondly recall from their youth. CR came in at almost the perfect time to capitalize on this midlife crisis group. Instead of buying their own Porsche’s they’re blowing their money on space ships.

    The guys on reddit aren’t funding anything. They’ve already spent their meager amount of money and CIG can collect no more from them. Their defense also isn’t helping anything because the guys funding it ignore them too.

    The mmo is happening right now. Once they win it, the money goes away. They won’t invest in another game either. This is the childhood memory game, and soon the midlife crisis will end.

    As they get closer to leaving crisis, they’re going to want their money back, too. They’ll probably pay for lawyers as well because they have money to burn from successful and lucrative careers.

    The other side of them are the people waiting for it to come out. 3.0 is “that turning point”. The group who isn’t role playing is waiting in the shadows for when their new Eve Online appears. They’ve been lead, oh so wrongly, to believe 3.0 is “that product”.

    People are wondering “why stop refunds now? Why before unveiling 3.0 and their biggest achievement??? They’re spoiling their best, possibly last, big opportunity!!”

    And I feel you’re only getting half the picture. The other half is what the evocati fuckers have, and are likely filling up their mail with problems. 3.0 is hosed, and it’s bad, and it looks like and plays like a joke of a game; not something a multinational company has been working on 24/7 for over 5 years.

    This “stop the refunds now!” is a preemptive play to kill the silent majority of big money whales, waiting in the shadows, who have been paying all along, buying all the stuff, no doubt being fed lies about 3.0 in different methods of communication. Either special forums, private one on one email with their preferred employees, etc.

    So really, there’s two fantasy groups who are huge benefactors who need to be stopped before they pull their money out.

    1: The fantasy role players playing the game right now (and are almost done with it)

    2: The silent majority led to believe 3.0 is where things get real and they can join in to the huge Eve-like mmo universe with a custom character and awesome fleet

    Both groups represent huge $$$. Both are about to tucker on out or get real pissed.

    Anyhow that’s my hot take. I’m sending this scoop to pixelemonade right now!
    Last edited by mmoc11f5768ffa; 2017-10-13 at 06:15 AM.

  7. #4647
    Quote Originally Posted by EvcRo View Post
    there is definitevly something big going on

    suddenly , in the past 72 hours, there are tons of denied refunds stories

    ofc some maybe are fake, but also there were fake refund stories even before

    huge increase in refund topics posted by lots of 1 year old reddit account, for sure something is happening

    i don't see any reason other than CIG are finally low on funds, makes sense if you look at their funding graph, 40% of their income comes in the last 2 months of the year
    They probably are getting low on funds, saw a post on mmorpg.com saying that from start to the end of 2017 they will have spent at least $120M if using the $120,000 per employee per year number that most studios use. InXile's CEO said that was a number he used in 2000 and is more likely 20% - 30% lower than current figures, using 25% would put the number at something like $190M...
    Last edited by 1001; 2017-10-13 at 08:42 AM.

  8. #4648
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1001 View Post
    They probably are getting low on funds, saw a post on mmorpg.com saying that from start to the end of 2017 they will have spent at least $120M if using the $120,000 per employee per year number that most studios use. InXile's CEO said that was a number he used in 2000 and the costs these days are more likely 20% - 30% higher, using 25% would put the number at something like $190M...
    Was that $120M based on $120,000 x number of current employees x number of years? Or did it take into account the growth?

    Not to mention, math is hard apparently? 25% increase of 120m would be 150m, not 190m.
    Last edited by masterhorus8; 2017-10-13 at 07:21 AM.
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  9. #4649
    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    Was that $120M based on $120,000 x number of current employees x number of years? Or did it take into account the growth?
    Apparently it was a tally of the staff numbers since 2012 * $100K not $120K per year

    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    Not to mention, math is hard apparently? 25% increase of 120m would be 150m, not 190m.
    It seems maths is indeed hard. If 120M is 25% lower, then it would be $160M (120 / 0.75 = 160) ie 160 - 160 * 0.25 = 120

    From what I remember the staff tally is something like 1200 for the last 5 years, and at $13,333 a piece per month gives $191.9M

    Have edited my other post to clarify that InXile's CEO said $10,000 is 20%-30% lower.
    Last edited by 1001; 2017-10-13 at 08:43 AM.

  10. #4650
    Quote Originally Posted by 1001 View Post
    They probably are getting low on funds, saw a post on mmorpg.com saying that from start to the end of 2017 they will have spent at least $120M if using the $120,000 per employee per year number that most studios use. InXile's CEO said that was a number he used in 2000 and is more likely 20% - 30% lower than current figures, using 25% would put the number at something like $190M...
    That doesn't even account for the salaries of all the A-list actors that Chris hired for SQ42. Mark Hamill, Gillian etc are not cheap. Only Sandi(lol that she's next to them) would be the only relatively cheap on the list CIG bragged about.

  11. #4651
    Every year before a big patch rollout we have haters pushing the "eminent colapse" bullshit.

    Yet here we are. Doom preachers come and go whille Star Citizen keeps on going.

    Maybe in 2018 then...

  12. #4652
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Every year
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Star Citizen keeps on going.
    It does, doesn't it? Year, after year, after year, after year, after year... Is it looking likely that it will be 100% finished in 2018? In 2019? In 2020? In 2021? Will they start over and migrate to a new engine version?

    Then again, at least people who have paid for it have already gotten their money's worth out of it, seeing as though it's playable. That's what's nice about early access games; you put in 20-30€ and you get hundreds upon hundreds of hours worth of content before the game even launches.

  13. #4653
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Every year before a big patch rollout we have haters pushing the "eminent colapse" bullshit.

    Yet here we are. Doom preachers come and go whille Star Citizen keeps on going.

    Maybe in 2018 then...
    You shouldn't listen to Derek Smart. He's the only one I know that talks about an imminent collapse.

  14. #4654
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Every year before a big patch rollout we have haters pushing the "eminent colapse" bullshit.

    Yet here we are. Doom preachers come and go whille Star Citizen keeps on going.

    Maybe in 2018 then...
    If you want to take some simple maths based on industry numbers with no mention of collapse or ELE or any of that bullshit and shovel in a load of your useless rhetoric in an attempt to twist the discussion into some banal tribal nonsense then that is on you.

    There's a difference between having a grown up conversation about how much money is likely to have been used over the last 5 years and emotive, knee-jerky, childish comments using words like haters, imminent collapse, doom preachers etc.

    If you get this emotional over a computer game perhaps you should take up knitting instead.

  15. #4655
    The Lightbringer
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    Is anyone else here familiar with the Trials of Ascension debacle from a few years back? It was a far smaller game, made by incompetent overachievers with little to no actual dev experience. From the perspective of a distant observer and setting aside the vast differences in the sums of money involved, the similarities are kind of shocking.

    -Both made grand promises that people with actual dev experience said would not and could not work.
    -Both chose to use engines that, out of the box, were flatly incapable of doing what the devs wanted them to do. Necessitating a huge push for custom code. A problem that the devs just (incorrectly) assumed could be solved by throwing sufficient sums of money around.
    -Both strung supporters along for years by producing mockups and small demo videos "proving" how far along they were in the dev cycle. While coincidentally missing milestone after milestone.
    -Both had an enormously zealous subset of die hard backers who were relentlessly, perhaps hopelessly optimistic about the games future despite the obvious troubles within their respective projects.
    -Both had lead devs with a history of failed projects. Though to be fair Chris Roberts was a legend in his time despite his occasional failures. I cant even remember the other guys name.
    -Im sure there are other similarities, but i cba to type them.

    In the end ToC crashed and burned to the surprise of only the most hardcore of fans who were living in a state of perpetual denial. Everyone else saw it coming a mile away. I cannot read about the production of SC without being constantly reminded of the parallels. Yes, Star Citizen development is still actively ongoing. But the veneer of competence is starting to peel away and people are getting tired of the show. They want the product they paid for. I imagine if the team behind ToC had the funding that Chris Roberts has, their game would have still played out in this exact same fashion.
    Last edited by Nihilan; 2017-10-13 at 01:46 PM.

  16. #4656
    Talking about star citizen financials is talking out of your own ass without knowing what you ate in the last 5 years.

    Good luck with the prognostics anyway.
    I'm sure next year will be the year. And then it's right before 4.0 and so on...

  17. #4657
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Talking about star citizen financials is talking out of your own ass without knowing what you ate in the last 5 years.

    Good luck with the prognostics anyway.
    I'm sure next year will be the year. And then it's right before 4.0 and so on...
    Fun fact: This year should have been "right before" 4.0 and the netcode-included 3.0 should have been out last December.

    Why can't you just say that Chris fucked up? I want to hear it from you at least once.

  18. #4658
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Fun fact: This year should have been "right before" 4.0 and the netcode-included 3.0 should have been out last December.

    Why can't you just say that Chris fucked up? I want to hear it from you at least once.
    Well that's an easy one, because he didn't. Same way other developers don't "fuck up" when things change.
    You are clearly so rattled with Chris Roberts for some obscure reason I don't wan't to know that you let that emotional distress to hinder your opinions.

    You make it just too personal to be taken serious. It's just a game anyway.

  19. #4659
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Well that's an easy one, because he didn't. Same way other developers don't "fuck up" when things change.
    You are clearly so rattled with Chris Roberts for some obscure reason I don't wan't to know that you let that emotional distress to hinder your opinions.

    You make it just too personal to be taken serious. It's just a game anyway.
    Do you honestly not see the irony here? Perhaps hypocrisy is a better word.

  20. #4660
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilan View Post
    Do you honestly not see the irony here? Perhaps hypocrisy is a better word.
    Please go ahead and further our stance. I'm not the one extrapolating, lying and fabricating facts to push FUD into star citizen out of spite.

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