"The balance in Tomb is pretty good right now"

[Reith]

as someone who loves my paladin alt, paladins have NEVER been a difficult class to play, so it's likely. I honestly can't name an easier class. I like that they added some more buttons for me to press other than flash of light to holy but it's still pretty simplistic even after my 12 years of playing.

Ret paladins were difficult to maximize on council fights, and difficult to master your offhealing while keeping your DPS up and doing mechanics. The skill ceiling has been lowered significantly; there's less buttons to press now than before, so not sure why you say there's more buttons.

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I don't even mind KJ so much, mostly I'm only doing the moving when I need to soak, but the boss is still, so i can get back quickly. Maybe thats just me and how my raid does those fights, and maybe thats just heroic mechanics.

KJ is probably Ret's best fight in Tomb, so not sure why you're implying that it's not by saying "I don't even mind KJ" lol

[Talvindius]

The whole benefit of Ret over other DPS is the utility, if we lose some dps to compensate for that it's not a big deal, especially considering how close dps is right now.

Ret's in a decent spot tbh. It will get a bit worse with the Antorus tier set but until then it's not like Ret is as bad as people have been saying.

I don't get all the complaints TBH. If you're not a bad player you might not top dps charts but that's not the point of Ret anyways. Remember the 1 time we did top dps charts opening week of NH? We got nerfed like crazy. It's clearly not meant to be a chart topping dps spec. Just roll with it or reroll.

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Do people actually think that blizzard is like "yea fuck those guys" and laughs?

They most likely know better than you, if they wanted to buff you they just would, they have the means now to buff total dps by a percentage with just changing a number. They look at the correct stats, we don't.

Stop being so red pilled, thats not how it works here.

Start yelling how because the pink bar that represents your dps isnt the biggest so blizz should change it so it is.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The whole benefit of Ret over other DPS is the utility

such as..?

[MyndZero]

It doesn't matter how you perceive classes, ret pally, feral druid, etc - They can ALL be just as good in putting our DPS if you're good at your class. I'll add fury warrior in here as a direct example as well, all these classes have less people playing them because they're perceived as weaker and not viable. As a fury warrior, I very rarely ever see myself losing to an arms warrior in general. There may be certain situations that arms may pull ahead in, but many others are the opposite of that.

[Kobor]

If you're not a bad player you might not top dps charts but that's not the point of Ret anyways.

Why should it be a problem for other classes or Blizz if Retri doing top damage? I don't understand the reason to nerf retri in case, we should be punished all the time, just because what?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Why should it be a problem for other classes or Blizz if Retri doing top damage? I don't understand the reason to nerf retri in case, we should be punished all the time, just because what?

Because of preserving the #fantasy of retribution.
That is, of being much very balance and decently mediocre.
See Kobor, when you Ret, you = of paragoned balance

[Jamessualty]

I'm not exactly sure what, "Retribution Paladins shine on movement and cleave which ToS is definitely a lot more friendly to us." even means. The grammar is completely wrong and next to DK's and Warlocks not using Burning Rush/Portals... we are the slowest and least mobile class in the game. Furthermore, "Retribution Paladins are nowhere near the bottom" really? By what metric or standard are they using?

(This is my first time posting so its not letting me post links, but the following data is over the last 2 weeks, from Warcraftlogs)

-If you look at the raw data of the top 10% of Player Damage to Bosses in Mythic we are 3rd from the bottom:
-We are tied with Havoc, at 5th from bottom when you include all damage (like AoE):


-If you go to Heroic and look at the same top 10% of Player Damage to bosses, we are 4th from the bottom:
-If you look at the AoE included on Heroic top 10% parses, we do finally get right under middle of the pack:


Don't get me wrong, I main/enjoy Paladin and I know how to use my class, but while we are just under middle of the pack when it comes to cleave, we are bottom of the pack when it comes to single target, mobility, and I would even argue utility (which is why we saw maybe 2(?) Ret Paladins in the m+ tourney). I'm not sure which information Blizzard was using to justify the claim that Paladins are nowhere near the bottom, but the only thing that should matter concerning that is how the top 10% of players are performing with the class. I say that not to insult people under that mark, but clearly the top 10% of players are performing at a higher level with the classes than those under that %. I mean unless someone can convince me otherwise, I look at the top 5% of damage parses on Mythic/Heroic as a top damage potential from each class. If people want to make the argument that not many Ret Paladins are used on Mythic KJ/FA fights... well ya that's the point. When you can min/max your group properly, why the hell would you run a Ret Paladin? Need soaks? Better ranged classes have Immunes. Rogues do literally everything better than Paladin: they are more mobile, do more damage, and can soak better than us on just about everything and more often (Feint, Cheat Death, Cloak of Shadows).

I'll end with a bit of a rant, why don't Paladins have brez? Why don't Paladins have the equivalent of what Feint does? I would actually love to be middle of the pack in damage but be top of the pack in utility (which we should be).

[Eurytos]

I'll end with a bit of a rant, why don't Paladins have brez? Why don't Paladins have the equivalent of what Feint does? I would actually love to be middle of the pack in damage but be top of the pack in utility (which we should be).

I want to focus on this part, which I think is really interesting. A battle rez seems exactly like what Divine Intervention should be. It fits the spell too.
The old DI used to be the paladin sacrificing himself to save another...but only in situations where it was a raid wipe, runback saving spell. And then there was the unique use on Saurfang that got hotfixed. It current iteration is almost entirely garbage. Barely usable but for niche situations like the Mage Tower.

But I've always thought of it as a Battle Rez. We are Divinely Intervening in the death process. This makes all the sense in the world for it to be a battle rez. All paladin specs should have it. Not a sacrifice of our life for theirs, but a true battle rez. They could get real creative with it to keep it a sacrificial rez, maybe buffing the person rezzed per their role, tank, heals, dmg...but I see how that could be abused. So, just a regular normal battle rez for paladins...it certainly fits. More so than it does for hunters, and even warlocks for that matter.

[Talvindius]

Why should it be a problem for other classes or Blizz if Retri doing top damage? I don't understand the reason to nerf retri in case, we should be punished all the time, just because what?

Because some other dps specs have no use aside from dps. If you have only 1 job you should be doing it better than someone who has multiple jobs.

Ret has never been top tier dps for this reason. It never will be. It's a design philosophy that's consistent in a lot of other MMOs. If you want utility your dps has to suffer. The degree that it suffers is based on the amount of utility.

Which is a better knife, a swiss army knife or a top of the line kitchen knife? You don't cut skirt steak with a swiss army knife, and if you did it should be harder than using a kitchen knife.

That's the logic and it makes sense, if in spite of it you're still butthurt that Ret isn't Rank 1 dps then it's a problem on your end my d00d.

[Kobor]

Because some other dps specs have no use aside from dps. If you have only 1 job you should be doing it better than someone who has multiple jobs.

Ret has never been top tier dps for this reason. It never will be. It's a design philosophy that's consistent in a lot of other MMOs. If you want utility your dps has to suffer. The degree that it suffers is based on the amount of utility.

Which is a better knife, a swiss army knife or a top of the line kitchen knife? You don't cut skirt steak with a swiss army knife, and if you did it should be harder than using a kitchen knife.

That's the logic and it makes sense, if in spite of it you're still butthurt that Ret isn't Rank 1 dps then it's a problem on your end my d00d.

You remember the bring the player and not the class told by Blizz?

Why? What use of Rets has that other classes don't have? Because we have other two spec? And? We don't have it the same time. This is a very wrong attitude. If this is true why at all Paladin has dps spec? All the paladins should be Holy, why?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Meanwhile Fecal durids are okay up there, as well as Spriests.
How come?
Desptie their utility?
huh?
I think there is a rupture in your logic, do0d.

[Titans]

It's a design philosophy that's consistent in a lot of other MMOs. If you want utility your dps has to suffer. The degree that it suffers is based on the amount of utility.

This philosophy used to be the case, but Blizzard has repeatedly stated that this class design is no longer the case. Ever since Cata blizzard has stated that different roles should be tuned compared to each other, and that for example a damage spec isn't top be punished because they have a healer OS. Same goes for utility, especially as specs have become more and more homogenized. Especially with legion pre-patch where button pruning meant a lot of specs, including ret, lost most of their utility.

tl;dr specs may do more or less healing and damage in a given tier, but it's no longer tuned around that spec's utility or lack thereof.

[Reith]

It doesn't matter how you perceive classes, ret pally, feral druid, etc - They can ALL be just as good in putting our DPS if you're good at your class. I'll add fury warrior in here as a direct example as well, all these classes have less people playing them because they're perceived as weaker and not viable. As a fury warrior, I very rarely ever see myself losing to an arms warrior in general. There may be certain situations that arms may pull ahead in, but many others are the opposite of that.

Anecdotal evidence means nothing in the grand scheme of balance.

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I'm not exactly sure what, "Retribution Paladins shine on movement and cleave which ToS is definitely a lot more friendly to us." even means. The grammar is completely wrong and next to DK's and Warlocks not using Burning Rush/Portals... we are the slowest and least mobile class in the game. Furthermore, "Retribution Paladins are nowhere near the bottom" really? By what metric or standard are they using?

From their super secret internal testing that's super optimal for Ret, apparently. Or anecdotal evidence, which means basically nothing.

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Because some other dps specs have no use aside from dps. If you have only 1 job you should be doing it better than someone who has multiple jobs.

Ret has never been top tier dps for this reason. It never will be. It's a design philosophy that's consistent in a lot of other MMOs. If you want utility your dps has to suffer. The degree that it suffers is based on the amount of utility.

Which is a better knife, a swiss army knife or a top of the line kitchen knife? You don't cut skirt steak with a swiss army knife, and if you did it should be harder than using a kitchen knife.

That's the logic and it makes sense, if in spite of it you're still butthurt that Ret isn't Rank 1 dps then it's a problem on your end my d00d.

Ret utility is almost non-existent compared to what it used to be. Argument defeated.

[Talvindius]

Ret utility is almost non-existent compared to what it used to be. Argument defeated.

You literally provide nothing to the argument but your lack of insight into your own class.

It's you that's defeated if this is all you can muster in response.

Utility is nearly exactly the same as WoD, the ability pruning didn't remove BoP, LoH, Freedom or Word of Glory.

But you're right, BoP isn't good on a fight like, idk, KJ where it can allow any class with no immunity to soak a large meteor. That'd be ridiculous would it?

Your posts are bad and you should feel bad.

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This philosophy used to be the case, but Blizzard has repeatedly stated that this class design is no longer the case. Ever since Cata blizzard has stated that different roles should be tuned compared to each other, and that for example a damage spec isn't top be punished because they have a healer OS. Same goes for utility, especially as specs have become more and more homogenized. Especially with legion pre-patch where button pruning meant a lot of specs, including ret, lost most of their utility.

tl;dr specs may do more or less healing and damage in a given tier, but it's no longer tuned around that spec's utility or lack thereof.

Healing OS is different from offheals. You're misreading the post.

Also you're incredibly wrong about utility being "homogenized." Blizzard has literally said that Shaman and Paladins are the only classes to maintain their role as "utility classes" as it is core to the class. Totem stacks are gone but totems are available through talents. Traditional blessings replaced with greater blessings. BoP, Lay and Freedom kept baseline.

Ret lost literally none of its core utility in the pruning. Aside from all the big forebearance CDs Ret also kept Flash of Light and EVEN HAS AN ARTIFACT TALENT THAT MAKES IT HEAL FOR MORE. Word of Glory is a talent that, are you ready for this, SACRIFICES DPS TO OFFHEAL. WOW. IT'S LIKE RET PALADIN IS STILL A UTILITY DPS SPEC.

Try harder before you shitpost more about how homogenized things are when you're unaware of the current state of the game.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Utility is nearly exactly the same as WoD, the ability pruning didn't remove BoP, LoH, Freedom or Word of Glory.

No.

Traditional blessings replaced with greater blessings. BoP, Lay and Freedom kept baseline.

slightly greater blessings don't matter and hold no water as far as your argument goes.
HoF is shite ability , barely(if ever) usable only in dragonslaying, and virtually useless in PvP.
Now can you say the same about totems?

Ret lost literally none of its core utility in the pruning.

Yeah right, Ret didn't lose WoG, SH FoL casts, HoSac, magic dispel, judgement buffs/debuffs and Emancipate along with Supplication when WArriors and DKs get to keep their versions, as far as personal utility goes.
Or did it.

Word of Glory is a talent that, are you ready for this, SACRIFICES DPS TO OFFHEAL. WOW. IT'S LIKE RET PALADIN IS STILL A UTILITY DPS SPEC.

No, it's not.
This iteration of WoG is beyond shit and incredibly niche.
One shitty niche spell does not an utility dps spec make.

Try harder before you shitpost more about how homogenized things are when you're unaware of the current state of the game.

I delight in the irony. (c)

[Deleted]

I didn't make this thread to whine bout dps output.
Made it after Ion went out in a calm and carefree face and said that they are happy with class balance atm when the community have proven them wrong this whole tier : whenever we have access to data of successful high end teams there is not balance to class REPRESENTATION.

If we talk about skirmish arenas, m+ up to 15 and heroic raids (what the devs play atm) then most probably the game looks balanced and everything is viable.
But for the rest of the content certain classes underperform, struggle to keep up with the team and are under represented . This isnt balance.

[Deleted]

You literally provide nothing to the argument but your lack of insight into your own class.


Ret lost literally none of its core utility in the pruning.

Try harder before you shitpost more about how homogenized things are when you're unaware of the current state of the game.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahah really ? no utility? we lost sac and the ability to even spec into having x2 hands that we had for such a long time both prot and holy bring more utility than ret and even prot can off heal with light of the protector to actually save someone with low hp and ofc they lose little to noting doing this as their role isent to DPS and yet they can do this with an instant cast on short CD. Not to mention at one point ret had aura mastery as well and look at wotlk ret even had instant FoL. As for the the fist and last sentences you make are you sure that you aren't talking about yourself?


Now on to the OPs posts well I choose to look at playing retribution paladin this way you cant spell retarded without ret so I am sure the devs at blizzard HQ mixed up the two and is why we get the treatment we get atm whilst if god forbid that a class like mages get a change that ill suits their tastes and they throw a hissy fit they get it fixed or compensated in some form asap.

[Reith]

Utility is nearly exactly the same as WoD, the ability pruning didn't remove BoP, LoH, Freedom or Word of Glory.

Lmao time to show you how wrong you really are. Ret doesn't have Turn Evil, Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame, Hand of Purity, Divine Intervention was turned into a crappy Cheat Death, Unbreakable Spirit isn't half as effective as it was before, Clemency doesn't exist as a talent anymore, Holy Avenger is no longer for Ret, Holy Prism and Light's Hammer are no longer for Ret, Execution Sentence's healing component Stay of Execution was removed, Seal of Justice was removed and replaced with a crappy 30 second cooldown slow, Symbiosis Wrath ability had occasional use and that's gone, Cleanse used to be able to remove a snare/slow effect when used on yourself which is gone, Seal of Insight is gone and only the judgment portion is a talent that competes with Cavalier/Divine Intervention, Supplication (the guaranteed crit for next Flash of Light on enemy kill) is gone, Hand of Salvation is gone, Glyph of Burden of Guilt (2 second slow on judge) is gone, Glyph of Flash of Light is gone. We have soo much utility though, right? Lol. Get rekt.

But you're right, BoP isn't good on a fight like, idk, KJ where it can allow any class with no immunity to soak a large meteor. That'd be ridiculous would it?

Cites one of only, what, two fights BoP has use? Try using it on Goroth, is it useful there? No. Is it useful on Demonic Inquisition? No. Is it useful on Harjatan? Sort-of on the charging add's target but who cares since you can heal it anyway? Is it useful on Mistress? To get rid of the debuff after first phase I guess, but that's healable. Is it useful on The Desolate Host? No. Is it useful on Maiden? No. is it useful on Fallen Avatar? Maybe for a little falling damage, but that can be healed anyway. Is it useful for Kil'jaeden? Only for meteors.

Your posts are bad and you should feel bad.

*holding up a mirror*

[Talvindius]

Lmao time to show you how wrong you really are. Ret doesn't have Turn Evil, Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame, Hand of Purity, Divine Intervention was turned into a crappy Cheat Death, Unbreakable Spirit isn't half as effective as it was before, Clemency doesn't exist as a talent anymore, Holy Avenger is no longer for Ret, Holy Prism and Light's Hammer are no longer for Ret, Execution Sentence's healing component Stay of Execution was removed, Seal of Justice was removed and replaced with a crappy 30 second cooldown slow, Symbiosis Wrath ability had occasional use and that's gone, Cleanse used to be able to remove a snare/slow effect when used on yourself which is gone, Seal of Insight is gone and only the judgment portion is a talent that competes with Cavalier/Divine Intervention, Supplication (the guaranteed crit for next Flash of Light on enemy kill) is gone, Hand of Salvation is gone, Glyph of Burden of Guilt (2 second slow on judge) is gone, Glyph of Flash of Light is gone. We have soo much utility though, right? Lol. Get rekt.



Cites one of only, what, two fights BoP has use? Try using it on Goroth, is it useful there? No. Is it useful on Demonic Inquisition? No. Is it useful on Harjatan? Sort-of on the charging add's target but who cares since you can heal it anyway? Is it useful on Mistress? To get rid of the debuff after first phase I guess, but that's healable. Is it useful on The Desolate Host? No. Is it useful on Maiden? No. is it useful on Fallen Avatar? Maybe for a little falling damage, but that can be healed anyway. Is it useful for Kil'jaeden? Only for meteors.


*holding up a mirror*

Let's delve deep into this amazing utility that Ret lost and look at how great it truly was

Turn Evil: It's like Repentence, but it fears instead of incapacitates. Same use, except Repentence is better and still in the game. You also had to talent it to make it affect humans and beasts, which means it was even more limited than Repentance. Nearly useless spell considering better fears existed. Considering that Repentence is a talent slot it would serve as a useless talent slot on live.

Selfless healer: This exists as a pvp talent. Consider that our artifact gives us a bare minimum 80% increased FoL heal. If we still had selfless healer they would nerf it to compensate for it being instant cast. Hard casting a flash of light on my 26% haste pally is a 1.2s cast time, barely more than a GCD. No great loss with this being gone since it took a while to stack, hard casting FoL on live is better offheals.

Eternal Flame: A talent that turned Word of Glory into a hot. Consider that Word of Glory is currently a talent that isn't taken because it takes holy power to use, which we use to do damage. It would see even more limited play than Word of Glory. No great loss as it wasn't something Ret was concerned with to begin with.

Hand of Purity: An external damage reduction you could talent. Regardless of what row this talent would land on it would see little to no play because it's not a dps talent. Even if you put it in the 90 row it wouldn't compete with DI or Cavalier. Wouldn't see play now, no great loss.

Old DI: The most troll ability in the game, good for allowing boss resets and very rarely used to help someone survive an ability and clutch a boss kill. I actually do miss DI but it's been gone for 7 years so it's irrelevant to the argument that Legion pruning is why Ret has no utility.

Also consider that current DI is extremely useful as a talent and the 1 min reduction to DS is huge on some fights, like early prog KJ where you can soak 4 meteors if the fight goes long enough for you to use BoP and DS twice each. Old DI is cool but the functionality of it is unnecessary.

Unbreakable spirit: A talent that reduces your DS, DP and LoH cd by 50%. A super OP talent by today's standards. Would not be balanced on live for Ret with DS not reducing damage by 50% anymore. Would be nerfed hard on live. It's basically been replaced by current DI which still reduces DS by 20%. Spiritually still in the game, would not be balanced.

Clemency: Talent that gives all Hands 2 charges. The only Hand we still have is Hand of Hindrance, most Hands were changed to Blessings so it would have to be reworked to work with Blessings, which would make the spell broken since we have baseline 40% CDR on BoP, giving it 2 charges would be disgustingly broken. It's also a talent, it might see use in the 90 or 75 row but considering it would be in a nerfed state it wouldn't be necessarily better than any current talents.

Holy Avenger: Made all HP generators generate 3 HP and increased damage and healing done by 30% for 18s. Would have to go in the lvl 100 slot because there's no way you could have this and Crusade active simultaneously or Ret's burst would break the game. A fair loss to be sure, there's no way this talent would be the same in live due to balance issues. The concept could exist but not in the state it was before.

This isn't utility though, this is dps. Losing this was not a utility loss, it was a dps loss. Irrelevant to the current topic.


Holy Prism and Light's Hammer: Combination dps/heal abilities with AoE effect. Both talents. They could exist as talents but they would have to be nerfed to not be stronger than the Holy Pally variations or placed in talent rows where they compete with damage talents.

Seals being removed is the only thing you could argue was a big loss to the CORE of Ret's kit from WoD to Legion, but the fact is that the damage we lost from seals was baked into Ret's base damage and we still maintain a single target slow which you've nicely put is "crappy," which is YOUR opinion. It's a similar slow to DK's Chain of Ice, which makes sense considering they are thematically similar as "Juggernaut dps." Slow moving and tanky. Doesn't make sense to have a 6s stun AND a permaslow.

Cleanse was buffed for Hpal and kept simple for Ret and Prot, it removes diseases and poisons. Consider that Ret is lucky to be a non healer with any sort of cleanse. The snare/slow removal is literally what Freedom is for. A useless notion to suggest we need our Cleanse to be stronger.


Honestly the theme with all your complains is that RET IS NOT A HEALING SPEC, WE DON'T NEED MORE HEALS. That's like saying Holy Paladin needs more dps abilities. If Ret had as many heals as you want it to we'd be a healing spec, which is not the fucking purpose of Ret.

People keep saying that Legion "homogenized all the classes," but that's literally the opposite of what they did. They went out of their way to not make abilities that overlap with some very specific exceptions. Ret losing all of those healing and utility talents happened so that Holy Pally could have some individual strength in that department compared to Prot and Ret.

Ret is a dps spec now, its main purpose is to do damage. It does, however, have SOME LIMITED offheal and spells. It's limited because Ret is a DPS spec 1st and a Utility/offhealer 2nd.

We don't NEED a ton of utility, there are plenty of other utility spells spread across every other class. Ret does, however, have MORE than other dps classes by quite a bit. We're at such a utility advantage that it CAN make up for the lack of DPS we have over classes with nearly 0 utility, like warriors who were also pruned to remove most of their utility.

You can sit there and talk about how great WOTLK Ret and that's just fantastic for you Booboo, but it's 2017 now and WoW isn't about having to macro 20 utility spells as a DPS, it's about playing your role and not totally intruding on other roles.


If you hate Ret so much then stop playing it. Go play some private Vanilla WoW and reminisce about the glory days when Ret paladin WAS a healing spec because it did fuck all damage but had so much utility that it was all it was good for. Prot pally was ALSO a healer since the only tanks in Vanilla that were actually used as tanks were Warriors.

How dare Blizzard make Prot Paladins tanks and Ret Paladins dps. HOW DARE THEY?

Your post is a wonderful troll simply because you make a lot of references to 10 year old abilities that were so seldom used that you could literally ignore them and nobody would notice.

Nice try though my d00d.

[Morally Grey Storm]

At this point it is quite possible that user Talvindius is talking out of his/her posterior and/or is simply trolling and/or arguing for of because unable to admit he/she is fething wrong.