Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[primalmatter]

I would rather the gap be lowered.

The problem is how much your allowed to skip ahead of your difficulty level in terms of gear. Its why the min ilv to do anything tends to be titanforge cap plus 4.

Even out the risk vs reward curve and a lot of things will fix themselves.

[DreamSlaveOne]

Star Augur is perfect example of "wtf blizz" tuning if you want examples like that. Anyway, I have no data to back me up in this, but I'm feeling that gear scaling and TF made tuning much harsher, and not only for first kills, but our rekills were not much faster as it were in previous expansions and EN.

[shaunika123]

Using Emerald Nightmare as your gauge isn't a good idea. Emerald Nightmare was never designed to be a hard raid. It's entry level for the expansion to get people's feet wet. Titanforging played some level in it to help boost sure, but the power of Legendaries was underestimated, the sheer willpower of raiders to max out their artifact amongst other things (think that one had class stacking higher than usual). There were a lot of factors that played into it. You can't say 100% titanforging was the problem and that's why raids got harder.

there's a difference between a "hard raid" and being cleared in half a day

i never said TF was the only factor, but it is a major factor, exorsus spammed an insane amount of m+ for TF gear, and it got them the kill in like 10 hours
blizzard never expected it
then they overcorrected with helya
then with star augur
and then with avatar/KJ

[Kaesebrezen]

Titanforging is THE reason people walk into a mythic boss right now with higher ilvl than the boss drops. Yes. Legendaries are the only other system that helps there, but 2 legendaries don't make 10 overall ilvls by themselves. Now add on the nether crucible.

No, this is simply not true.

Look at practically any first kills of the first few bosses (anywhere from top 50 to top 150), substract 5 average itemlvls for legendaries (yes, that's how much legendaries add), and you will get numbers that are signficanty below 930 average.

If your wannabe mythic guild needs 930 average itemlvl to even kill Goroth, then the harsh truth is that mythic isn't for you.

[Aggrophobic]

Yup, has nothing to do with me uses direct wording from the pages I saw it on so you could easily google it. Yup, must be your google search engine is broken. Sorry to hear about that.

Kind of like how "AFK for Mythic Level loot all the time"

Then link these sources you seem to have. It's as simple as that. Where did Blizzard say they don't want mythic raiding to be rewarding?

You're like one of thoes flat earth nuts - "I have proof it's flat but I won't show it to you becuase you're mean!".
You saying that it's true does not make it so.

[Lucetia]

there's a difference between a "hard raid" and being cleared in half a day

i never said TF was the only factor, but it is a major factor, exorsus spammed an insane amount of m+ for TF gear, and it got them the kill in like 10 hours
blizzard never expected it
then they overcorrected with helya
then with star augur
and then with avatar/KJ

But you are still equating Titanforging to be why those bosses are harder. It's not. There are so many factors that were considered before making it harder. Those fights were harder because of a combination of it all.

Mythic raids should just scale your ilvl down for each boss so if you overgear it you are scaled down. Many wouldn't like the challenge then of overcoming it and being on an even playfield based on what Blizzard wants it tuned as.

Then link these sources you seem to have. It's as simple as that. Where did Blizzard say they don't want mythic raiding to be rewarding?

You're like one of thoes flat earth nuts - "I have proof it's flat but I won't show it to you becuase you're mean!".
You saying that it's true does not make it so.

And you saying it isn't doesn't make it true either. You are the one saying it's false so burden of proof is on you to prove it wrong. I wrote what was written so it's easily searchable. I don't need to do all the research for you. If you want to believe it's false then by all means go right for it. There is nothing to stop you at all, but you can't reliably tell me either that you searched and searched and found nothing either. I'm sorry if you are upset that I am not going to post links to help do your research for you. Don't really care what you compare me to either. The difference between the flat earth is research which anyone can easily do.

that would defeat the entire purpose of gearing, that's some backwards logic

"oh we inflated ilvl too high so bosses are now too easy, let's make the inflated ilvl irrelevant"

instead of not making them inflated in the first place

Except you aren't gearing. You are effecting gaining power from multiple places. Mythic raids should be more about the challenge than getting high ilvls. Simple as that.

[shaunika123]

But you are still equating Titanforging to be why those bosses are harder. It's not. There are so many factors that were considered before making it harder. Those fights were harder because of a combination of it all.

Mythic raids should just scale your ilvl down for each boss so if you overgear it you are scaled down. Many wouldn't like the challenge then of overcoming it and being on an even playfield based on what Blizzard wants it tuned as.

that would defeat the entire purpose of gearing, that's some backwards logic

"oh we inflated ilvl too high so bosses are now too easy, let's make the inflated ilvl irrelevant"

instead of not making them inflated in the first place

Except you aren't gearing. You are effecting gaining power from multiple places. Mythic raids should be more about the challenge than getting high ilvls. Simple as that.

once again, backwards logic

"i can overgear mythic raids from places that arent mythic raids, so let's make loot from mythic raids irrelevant"

do you hear yourself? (or rather see yourself)

getting more and more gear from endgame raids to make the content easier has been one of the most organic and healthy ways to design bosses for multiple demographics since the inception of this game

if you cant kill the boss on the first week, you'll be able to in a month with better gear

this saves blizzard from compromising anywhere, this way they can make the bosses for a much much bigger demographic than either making it too easy or too hard for most people

you're literally voting to remove the biggest staple of MMORPGs and RPGs in general
not to mention killing the sense of character progression along the way

[Aggrophobic]

Its not the same. LFR=885, mythic=930. Mythics starting ilvl is a once in a blue moon LFR titan forge. Get over yourself. I promise someday you will get your mythic snowflake title and all your gear will be super shiney.....

My gear is fine but it's worth nothing when everyone can get it without much affort.

[Maduk]

World content/Mythic+ should just be interesting enough, and not like the current legendary RNG.

The current thread narrative is that World content and Mythic+ wouldn't even drop anything you need.
So except doing your current raid you have nothing else to do the whole week.

Systems like "do as many raids a week for bad luck protection Legendaries or good luck Titanforge" is not really interesting design.

Leggos are a interesting design idea but their current implementation is not good.

I would be fine with 1 raid per week loot lockout. Would fix split runs as well for the most part.

Even if you make LFR part of that lockout, give an incentive for people to do normal+, and titanforging isn't it.

Also it would likely keep the high itemlevel players in the highest difficulties instead of "940+ normal speedrun raid go go go"

Raid lockouts are sure a problem.
Instead of only one lockout, you should have 2 lockouts for different difficulties.
So you could run LFR and check out normal or you progress and farm the difficulty below.

[Kaesebrezen]

My gear is fine but it's worth nothing when everyone can get it without much affort.

And again: The average Itemlvl of a heroic guild is 930, the average of a mythic guild is 940+.

It's simply not true that these people have the same gear as you. Neither does it look the same, nor is the itemlvl the same.

[Teri]

Raid lockouts are sure a problem.
Instead of only one lockout, you should have 2 lockouts for different difficulties.
So you could run LFR and check out normal or you progress and farm the difficulty below.

Well I think they could keep LFR seperate, if they had no titanforging or legendary bad luck system noone heroic/mythic would do it for loot, unless maybe at the very beginning for tier-2/4 set. However, it could still award some consolation price to keep it populated by adding upgrade-currency or legendary-purchase-currency.

I also have no problem with legendary items itself, it's just the way things are base on either good luck = titanforge, or reducing bad luck = legendaries, isn't as solid as a possibly more "boring" currency grind.

Heck , if they want to keep RNG, make the upgrade system like +5 itemlevels base, but can proc +10 or +15 bonus, to get 3/3 upgrade level for example.

Or just a purchaseable "discover a legendary for your spec" token for currency instead of a vendor selling them straight up direct.

I personally prefer any visible grinds over any hidden invisible luck %. But I have less problem with things like relinquished gear tokens, cause you know when exactly you are able to purchase your next "chance" vs a completely hidden tracker.

[niil945]

I wish they would take TFing out, but it looks like they want to keep it in.

Simple solution to cater to both sides:

Or they could leave it exactly how it is because the vast majority of people want it that way.

[Aggrophobic]

And again: The average Itemlvl of a heroic guild is 930, the average of a mythic guild is 940+.

It's simply not true that these people have the same gear as you. Neither does it look the same, nor is the itemlvl the same.

Not all but some do and thats the problem. Luck should not be a determining factor.
It's even worse when the raids are balanced around it.

- - - Updated - - -

But you are still equating Titanforging to be why those bosses are harder. It's not. There are so many factors that were considered before making it harder. Those fights were harder because of a combination of it all.

Mythic raids should just scale your ilvl down for each boss so if you overgear it you are scaled down. Many wouldn't like the challenge then of overcoming it and being on an even playfield based on what Blizzard wants it tuned as.



And you saying it isn't doesn't make it true either. You are the one saying it's false so burden of proof is on you to prove it wrong. I wrote what was written so it's easily searchable. I don't need to do all the research for you. If you want to believe it's false then by all means go right for it. There is nothing to stop you at all, but you can't reliably tell me either that you searched and searched and found nothing either. I'm sorry if you are upset that I am not going to post links to help do your research for you. Don't really care what you compare me to either. The difference between the flat earth is research which anyone can easily do.



Except you aren't gearing. You are effecting gaining power from multiple places. Mythic raids should be more about the challenge than getting high ilvls. Simple as that.

You're just trolling at this point. Welcome to my ignore list as one of the first ever.

Edit: Aww, can't even ignore you. How did you manage to get the moderator tag?
In any case, live in your fantasy bubble if you want. Your rants won't get you far in life.

[Kaesebrezen]

Not all but some do and thats the problem. Luck should not be a determining factor.
It's even worse when the raids are balanced around it.

Why is "some" (it's fewer than few) a problem exactly? They aren't harming you in any way.

If recruitment for any content was purely done on itemlvl, then it might be a problem. But warcraftlogs, mythicscore exist to evaluate players - and that's what they're mainly evaluated by. Not by itemlvl.

As i've written before - up to Host kills ranged from Itemlvl 918 - 926. That's still a good junk below what you get in Mythic.

The early bosses have been tuned around near heroic itemlvl, and the last bosses have been tuned around near mythic itemlvl. In the best case, you can argue that Mistress, Avatar and KJ are either to difficult, or their reward offers to low itemlvl - but even buffing itemlvl on the last bosses is questionable, given that better statted gear (esp. trinkets), drop on the early bosses - and set items are 930 regardless of where they drop. You'd still take the lower itemlvl stuff from early bosses, because they're better stated. (the other side of the medal is you'd take gear solely on itemlvl, which is equally bad)

Boss 7-9 don't reward gear, because they're decked out in boss 1-6 gear. Titanforging has at best a minor part in that.

[DreamSlaveOne]

And again: The average Itemlvl of a heroic guild is 930, the average of a mythic guild is 940+.

It's simply not true that these people have the same gear as you. Neither does it look the same, nor is the itemlvl the same.

And why difference is not 15 ilvl?

[Aggrophobic]

Why is "some" (it's fewer than few) a problem exactly? They aren't harming you in any way.

If recruitment for any content was purely done on itemlvl, then it might be a problem. But warcraftlogs, mythicscore exist to evaluate players - and that's what they're mainly evaluated by. Not by itemlvl.

As i've written before - up to Host kills ranged from Itemlvl 918 - 926. That's still a good junk below what you get in Mythic.

The early bosses have been tuned around near heroic itemlvl, and the last bosses have been tuned around near mythic itemlvl. In the best case, you can argue that Mistress, Avatar and KJ are either to difficult, or their reward offers to low itemlvl - but even buffing itemlvl on the last bosses is questionable, given that better statted gear (esp. trinkets), drop on the early bosses - and set items are 930 regardless of where they drop. You'd still take the lower itemlvl stuff from early bosses, because they're better stated. (the other side of the medal is you'd take gear solely on itemlvl, which is equally bad)

Boss 7-9 don't reward gear, because they're decked out in boss 1-6 gear. Titanforging has at best a minor part in that.

Becuase the value of the items is lowerd if more people have them.
If eveyone gets the same rewards then why bother doing the challenging content?

Seeing how mythic rainding has pretty much died out in legion a lot of people simply don't care anymore so clearly the system is bad.

[Marrilaife]

Mythic raids should be more about the challenge than getting high ilvls. Simple as that.

In ideal world yes, in practice mythic guilds are disbanding left and right and people's interest is dwindling because lots of players are reward driven not pure challenge seekers. Yes, you can't afk in LFR to 940 ilvl, but you can put 1/10 of the effort of raiding mythic by raiding heroic + weekly mythic+ chest + argus world boss instead and get somewhere close. My hunter is 940 if I equip my "ilvl gear" without setting a foot in mythic (my normal gear is lower due to convergence and set pieces being from hc and the only titanforge is 920 normal tier piece), my 8/9m main has same or less ilvl than my alt, how sad is that.

I personally won't quit mythic just because of gear, but if people around me do, that impacts me, because I need at least 19 others to raid with. And also there's an issue with wide range of skill in "mythic guilds", can't compare a guy who's 3/9m and 9/9m and say they would do well if together if their guilds merged. At least 4 guilds on my server disbanded because they reached the point of pre-nerf Mistress, realized they have some weak links in the team that makes her unkillable, so they would have to sit and wait for nerfs or replace these players - and there was no recruitment pool left, people capable of killing pre-nerf Mistress became so rare, tons of them quit.

Something needs to happen with mythic raiding, it can't be just a raiding version of CM you'd wanna do once for bragging rights and then never step into it again. Not even mentioning tons of people paid for CM boosts because they didn't care about the challenge itself, just wanted that sweet mog. So yeah, another case where "challenge seekers" are a tiny minority and most people wanted it for the 1-time reward.

[Kaesebrezen]

And why difference is not 15 ilvl?

Well, it is +15 if you compare it to Method, and slowly degrades to +10 for anything below that. Isn't that fair?

The best guild has the highest itemlvl. Anything below them slowly drops, but still has better gear than the heroic raider.

Seeing how mythic rainding has pretty much died out in legion a lot of people simply don't care anymore so clearly the system is bad.

That's because of rewards?

Tomb has atrociously designed boss fights. Soak here, soak there, soak everywhere. Which guild can realistically stem that many soakers?
You lack the classes, and the bosses get signficantly harder. Bang your head against the wall, loose motivation, people quit.
Rerolling? Not possible due to RNGjesus legendaries, without them your class just doesn't perform.

Recruitment boss has been going on since WoD, and legion made it worse. (especially on EU with +10€ on transfer/faction change).
No people, no raid, even more people quit.

There are signficantly bigger issues why mythic population is shrinking, and rewards aren't one of them.

[Redroniksre]

Becuase the value of the items is lowerd if more people have them.
If eveyone gets the same rewards then why bother doing the challenging content?

Seeing how mythic rainding has pretty much died out in legion a lot of people simply don't care anymore so clearly the system is bad.

So you want to rework the loot system so that it really only offers incentives for the 5% of the playerbase, while it leaves the other 95% without content to do? You do realize they have tried and tried to get people raiding, but simply put, most people don't want to raid. Luckily Blizzard listens to money and numbers, which is why your idea wasn't implemented.

[gioderpington]

Opposite, if anything it should only be 5ilvls higher between raids, and raid difficulties. It's absurd that nightmare and nighthold are out of date. If Titan forging is staying then they should increase the chance to titanforge drastically for heroic, then even more for mythic (guaranteed for mythic almost). That way even the first 8.0 raid will be viable. I'm so god damn sick of farming mythic ToS for titanforge gear.
Chart for clarity: tier 1 raid I'll 1200 normal (h+5 triple chance to titanforge forge,m+10,6x chance or whatever it is for m+ weekly chest). Next tier 1205... Etc etc...
Mythic would actually be rewarding across ever raid then.