Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[Redroniksre]

But at the same time they made raiding less rewarding and less intresting.
So, yeah.

I agree with the statements of increased burn-out due to multiple difficulties. Raiding is still rewarding, but people don't care anymore. Some people love to talk about how in vanilla people gawked over their gear, and that was true to a degree, but nobody cares now what you look like. Blizzard also needs increased participation to justify the fact they spend asset resources on making unique, large raids.

[Barnabas]

I think TF should bridge the gap between difficulties.

[Uoyredrum]

What you lose: a lot of subscriptions because a lot of players stand infront of a brick wall and rather quit.

The game had a lot more subs when it was like that. /shrug

Top grade armchair dev here, 10/10 work

Well I am a dev and I do own an armchair, I guess I can't argue.

[Deleted]

This thread didnt need 5 pages, it can be summarized easily as follows:
- Mythic raiders: "cap TF, make it so we can't get upgrades from normal raids no matter how minor the odds"
- LFR scrubs: "LFR/N titanforging to mythic level loot is perfectly fine, git gud"

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Uhm, what?

Those guilds all had itemlvls of about ~918-922 (with 970 legendaries included) when they killed any of the first few bosses. When they killed those bosses, they offered more than enough reward in terms of itemlvl..

What are you on about? Taking a guild around 100th of whom I know they don't run splits, they were 926 average ilvl for Sisters of the Moon. Going closer to 200th you'll actually get awfully close to 928-930 averages for the 4th boss already.

[Tradu]

Why can't you compare the two? Warlord raids would have to be designed around Heroic Titanforge while Legion is designed around Heroic Titanforge + 5-10 (I'd guess due to legendaries and artifact traits). The same principle applies to both. Warlords of Draenor wasn't built around having full Heroic Titanforge, just like Legion isn't built around have full Titanforge to the cap type gear.

WoD did not have titanforging, what are you smoking? And are you actually comparing +6 ilevels on a few pieces to Legion titanforging?

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Then don't do it if you don't like it.
As long as I get a chance on better loot, I'll run it.

Yeah, I don't like it, it's degenerate gameplay and should be gone. Easy content should not be the most time efficient way of getting good gear, and heroic ToS is definitely the most time efficient way of getting gear(there's a reason heroic raiders are 935+ easily, which is only slightly lower than mythic)

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What LFR hero feels when he gets that single 955 item lvl (if at all) per raid tier: he's happy.

What a mythic raider feels when the LFR hero gets a 955 itemlvl: My effort is totally undermined, the 0.5 less average item lvl difference is totally undermining the effort i put into leeching the loot from the work my raid leader put into organizing/recruiting/keeping the raid alive.

Let's quote the only good post in this whole thread:

Yeah no. Sure, it's idiotic that people who don't raid mythic get 955 gear from shit like WQs, but the main issue is that TF(and legendaries) cause running easy content to be extremely worthwhile for gaining power as a mythic raider, which undermines the hundreds of wipes you have on progress. And the LFR hero could get a 910 item and still be happy, it doesn't have to go to absurdly high levels to achieve that effect.

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Should go the other way. Go back to Cata style, with 7 iLvls between each difficulty, and remove TFIng/socket procs.

Shouldn't have tried to fix what wasn't broken back then.

This. Wrath/Cata/MoP(less so in MoP's case) had solved loot, basically, then the devs got bored and started changing it around for no reason, just to "make their mark" on the game.

[Arainie]

I can't speak for any guild that has been clearing it as no one knows the internals but them, but if a vast majority are only able to clear it with a high ilvl then that means a few different things. None of these things are related to what level loot drops. If they were only able to clear it after all the nerfs (ie needing crucible, etc) then it might be more towards the group isn't as experienced as they thought they were. It also could mean, and a big possibility, that the content is overtuned for it's intended ilvl. If you are struggling to clear the end boss and need to go over his ilvl that generally points more to an overtunement or guild not as good as it is. Neither of these are affected by what ilvl drops. From what I hear about it being Tomb of Soakness it's probably more the encounter and a topic for another day.

If I'm not mistaken I've already "proven" (in my eyes at least!) you wrong on this point once before, but my apologies if I'm mixing you up with someone else. Almost every hardcore Mythic guild were 925-927 going in to Mythic and 933-934 before it was even cleared. Most of that gear came from NH Mythic and ToS HC splitfarming. In turn raid encounters are tuned for a higher item level than they drop the majority of the time, and if it wasn't for ridiculous titanforging (25 ilvls above Mythic base, what's the point?) encounters could be tuned far better and the difference in power between hardcore Mythic guilds and "casual" Mythic guilds wouldn't be as massive the very first week of the tier. I mean, guilds killing KJ nowdays sit at around 940 equipped, and with early kills being at 933-934 a mere 6 ilvl difference doesn't trivialize the fight by any means.

Certain streamers also voice their opinion on it because it shatters their reality/snowflakeness/etc so everyone takes what they say as gospel.

That's pretty disrespectful. Can you elaborate on why you choose to use "snowflakeness" (aka special snowflake) as a derogatory term? I think it's amazing that people have something to strive towards even if it only attracts a minority of the community. For many of us gaming (and real life) is about evolving and beating difficult challenges and that attitude my friend is ultimately what drives humanity forward. Not rewarding outstanding achievements (in whatever field you like) is destructive, and I despise the fact that so many of you try to belittle those who actually put time and effort in to things, even if it's gaming we're talking about.

[Tradu]

If I'm not mistaken I've already "proven" (in my eyes at least!) you wrong on this point once before, but my apologies if I'm mixing you up with someone else. Almost every hardcore Mythic guild were 925-927 going in to Mythic and 933-934 before it was even cleared. Most of that gear came from NH Mythic and ToS HC splitfarming. In turn raid encounters are tuned for a higher item level than they drop the majority of the time, and if it wasn't for ridiculous titanforging (25 ilvls above Mythic base, what's the point?) encounters could be tuned far better and the difference in power between hardcore Mythic guilds and "casual" Mythic guilds wouldn't be as massive. I mean, guilds killing KJ nowdays sit at around 940 equipped, and with early kills being at 933-934 a mere 6 ilvl difference doesn't trivialize the fight by any means.


That's pretty disrespectful. Can you elaborate on why you choose to use "snowflakeness" (aka special snowflake) as a derogatory term? I think it's amazing that people have something to strive towards even if it only attracts a minority of the community. For many of us gaming (and real life) is about evolving and beating difficult challenges and that attitude my friend is ultimately what drives humanity forward. Not rewarding outstanding achievements (in whatever field you like) is destructive, and I despise the fact that so many of you try to belittle those who actually put time and effort in to things, even if it's gaming we're talking about.

Indeed, it's much harder to overgear fights in Legion because they have to be tuned around overgearing from the beginning, which hurts guilds that aren't the very top in the game.

[Aaronioslo]

just remove fucking TF, its just silly to give people a chance to get 955 gear when they AFK in LFR.

you work hard to earn more money, simple as that.

if you want better gear do more challenging content, what are all these cry babies on about?

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Honestly, raiding Mythic isn't suppose to be about "getting uber gears". Mythic is suppose to be about the challenge and attempting to overcome it. People need to get off their ideas of "I need high ilvl gear because I do this, get away from me you little ants" type ideas.

If you want gear to be awarded at a higher ilvl then be prepared for the encounters to be scaled to match it. Meaning the content would be even harder then you would be complaining about the challenge.



The reason is because Titanforging is actually good for the game the way it is. You should be able to do any piece of content and have the chance of being rewarded with something higher. It gives you incentives to do other parts of the content rather than one area. If you know it's going to cap out at X lvl then you'll get to a point where you aren't wanting to do it because it gives you nothing. Titanforging helps give parts of the game an incentive to still be active. If World Quests has a cap then after you are X ilvl you wouldn't even consider doing them. That in turns starts to make WQ useless and then that part of the content is gone. This continue to applies to other areas of the game.

don't give me this crap, better gear should always be an incentive for people to do mythic, and current system killed this incentive and killed so many mythic raiding guilds with it.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I used to be against the Titanforging, but then I watched Ion's interview and now I see why they have it and why it's good for the health of the game overall. And it's entirely true, I haven't seen a single LFR-hero with superior gear overall to someone doing HC/Mythic raids or even M+.

But alas, this thread will just end up drawing the usual crowd professing their ever-burning hatred towards the game for X reason (which changes with the expansion yet they never gtfo and move on).

[Tradu]

I used to be against the Titanforging, but then I watched Ion's interview and now I see why they have it and why it's good for the health of the game overall. And it's entirely true, I haven't seen a single LFR-hero with superior gear overall to someone doing HC/Mythic raids or even M+.

But alas, this thread will just end up drawing the usual crowd professing their ever-burning hatred towards the game for X reason (which changes with the expansion yet they never gtfo and move on).

Why is it so hard to understand that it's not just about LFR heroes getting massively overrewarded? The main issue is that it incentivizes degenerate gameplay like running old raids/lower difficulties to get upgrades, which is much more efficient than doing mythic in terms of time spent(as my numerous 935+ heroic-only alts clearly show), because of how much time progression takes on mythic, whereas heroic is something you can easily clear in an hour or 2.
And you can say "just don't do it, then" as much as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that somebody not participating in that degenerate gameplay will be behind people who do.

[potatojenkins]

just remove fucking TF, its just silly to give people a chance to get 955 gear when they AFK in LFR.

you work hard to earn more money, simple as that.

if you want better gear do more challenging content, what are all these cry babies on about?

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don't give me this crap, better gear should always be an incentive for people to do mythic, and current system killed this incentive and killed so many mythic raiding guilds with it.

I'd wager limiting Mythic to 20 players only did way more harm to mythic raiding than titanforging ever did. Other things offering compelling loot (and LFR existing in general) probably did do actual harm to normal and heroic, probably, though. (But probably not enough to matter)

[Queen of Hamsters]

The game had a lot more subs when it was like that. /shrug

It didn't stay at that number of subs with said system though, so...

Lifetime cycle, correlation =/= causation, subs vs time spent in-game by a player etc etc... It's all been argued to death.

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Why is it so hard to understand that it's not just about LFR heroes getting massively overrewarded? The main issue is that it incentivizes degenerate gameplay like running old raids/lower difficulties to get upgrades, which is much more efficient than doing mythic in terms of time spent(as my numerous 935+ heroic-only alts clearly show), because of how much time progression takes on mythic, whereas heroic is something you can easily clear in an hour or 2.
And you can say "just don't do it, then" as much as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that somebody not participating in that degenerate gameplay will be behind people who do.

It's not "hard" to understand the complaint, it's just a case of people disagreeing that it's some sort of gamebreaking issue.
I can only speak for myself though, but I know literally zero people running old raids for super slim chances at pieces titanforging to a level where they'd be superior to Mythic ToS loot.

Literally zero. I see people run old raids for transmogs, legendary chances and AP however, but they don't seem to mind it. People doing it to an extent of burnout for a chance at TF must be such a small part of the playerbase that Blizzard probably won't give a shit vs the vast majority.

[Tradu]

It didn't stay at that number of subs with said system though, so...

Lifetime cycle, correlation =/= causation, subs vs time spent in-game by a player etc etc... It's all been argued to death.

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I know literally zero people running old raids for super slim chances at pieces titanforging to a level where they'd be superior to Mythic loot.

Literally zero. People doing that must be such a small part of the playerbase that Blizzard probably won't give a shit vs the vast majority.

Yeah, they're just running old raids for legendaries in most cases(although there's definitely people in those runs who are hoping for a high TF trinket), that still leaves easy difficulties of the same raid(which is definitely a thing in ToS). It was definitely a thing during NH, however, with people running ToV for statsticks and EN for BTI.

[Aaronioslo]

I'd wager limiting Mythic to 20 players only did way more harm to mythic raiding than titanforging ever did. Other things offering compelling loot (and LFR existing in general) probably did do actual harm to normal and heroic, probably, though. (But probably not enough to matter)

except numbers of active mythic raiding guilds between this expansion and WOD suggest otherwise.

and within this expansion mythic raiding guilds are rapidly disappearing from tier to tier

THESE number changes have NOTHING to do with 20 man mythic raid

[threads]

the ilvl jumps now are already retarded enough they dont need to be any higher.

look at wrath the gear started at 200 and ended at 277. now we jump like 120 ilvls and last tier isn't even out yet./

[Aaronioslo]

I used to be against the Titanforging, but then I watched Ion's interview and now I see why they have it and why it's good for the health of the game overall. And it's entirely true, I haven't seen a single LFR-hero with superior gear overall to someone doing HC/Mythic raids or even M+.

But alas, this thread will just end up drawing the usual crowd professing their ever-burning hatred towards the game for X reason (which changes with the expansion yet they never gtfo and move on).

my spriest alt who does not do m+ or any raiding has the same ilvl as my mythic raiding main, would that change your mind?

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the ilvl jumps now are already retarded enough they dont need to be any higher.

look at wrath the gear started at 200 and ended at 277. now we jump like 120 ilvls and last tier isn't even out yet./

as long as the relative strength doesn't change, what's the problem?

when you have ilvl 200 you need 5 sec to kill a mob, and you one shot with ilvl 277.

and when you have ilvl 880 you need 5 sec to kill a mob, and you one shot with ilvl 1000

what's the difference?

[Deleted]

I didn't say that and the current system does give higher loot for completing it. The current system isn't stupid and anyone who thinks it is, is more upset that other people can get to their ilvl too without having to do what they do. Mythic content the reward is the challenge itself along with higher ilvl base loot and less chance on titanforging to cap.



And this is why you and several other's aren't developers because you'd have your player base leave in massive waves. Especially since how your comment counters itself.

"Challenging content you should not be rewarded" "LFR should have no loot"

Nice sized bullshit...based on your logic, time to stop giving cups and medals to the winners in ANY competition....or at least different ones (aka bronze, silver, gold) to be there is the prize itself, is not?

[Kaesebrezen]

Yeah no. Sure, it's idiotic that people who don't raid mythic get 955 gear from shit like WQs, but the main issue is that TF(and legendaries) cause running easy content to be extremely worthwhile for gaining power as a mythic raider, which undermines the hundreds of wipes you have on progress. And the LFR hero could get a 910 item and still be happy, it doesn't have to go to absurdly high levels to achieve that effect.

Why is capping titanforging the only viable solution to that problem?

As you write it, the issue seems to be the "extremely worthwhile for gaining power"-part.

Is it really that extreme though? Some guy here previously wrote that their weekly heroic clear nets them ~2 930+ titanforged items. Let's say those are 940. Over the course of 6 weeks, on a 20 person raid, that's an upgrade of 0.9 itemlvls over the, on random slots (e.g. it could be on bracers/rings, or it could be only on relics), assuming your raid setup is 100% the same on every boss kill. Further, the more mythic bosses you kill, the less of an power upgrade farming heroic for titanforges become, as you get to a base itemlvl of 930.

Which brins us to - splitfarming:

In turn raid encounters are tuned for a higher item level than they drop the majority of the time, and if it wasn't for ridiculous titanforging (25 ilvls above Mythic base, what's the point?) encounters could be tuned far better and the difference in power between hardcore Mythic guilds and "casual" Mythic guilds wouldn't be as massive.

There are two factors: Splitfarming and Titanforging.

As shown above, with a single heroic clear each week, the power gain is marginal at best.
If on the other hand you splitfarm HC with 4-5 groups in a single week, fuelling all the loot to 4-5 people in each group, then you increase that marginal gain of one single heroic clear for titanforge by quite that much.

First fix split-farming, then talk about that single 1 hour heroic clear most guilds do once per week on their mains for a marginal titanforging gain they perceive to "extreme".

[Adaren]

Making Warforge happen in increments of +3 item levels (and perhaps tuning the WF chance up just a smidge to compensate) seems like a more elegant solution, but they would both accomplish similar things.

[Aaronioslo]

Why is capping titanforging the only viable solution to that problem?

As you write it, the issue seems to be the "extremely worthwhile for gaining power"-part.

Is it really that extreme though? Some guy here previously wrote that their weekly heroic clear nets them ~2 930+ titanforged items. Let's say those are 940. Over the course of 6 weeks, on a 20 person raid, that's an upgrade of 0.9 itemlvls over the, on random slots (e.g. it could be on bracers/rings, or it could be only on relics), assuming your raid setup is 100% the same on every boss kill (this also ignores that once you kill any respective boss on mythic, the +25 gain from a 940 item shrinks to +10)

Which brings us to split farming:
There are two factors: Splitfarming and Titanforging.

As shown above, with a single heroic clear each week, the power gain is marginal at best.
If on the other hand you splitfarm HC with 4-5 groups in a single week, fuelling all the loot to 4-5 people in each group, then you increase that marginal gain of one single heroic clear for titanforge by quite that much.

First fix split-farming, then talk about that single 1 hour heroic clear most guilds do once per week on their mains for a marginal titanforging gain they perceive to "extreme"

except titanforging doesnt only come form raiding,

there is m+, which is spamable and produces tones of 940+ items and that killed mythic raiding.