Templates Gone: Anyone Else Wanna See This?

[Whatever Dude]

Can't make up this shit.

Nice anecdote little buddy. You almost made an argument. Keep trying.

[Kralljin]

Nice anecdote little buddy. You almost made an argument. Keep trying.

If you don't see the irony, maybe you should try a little harder.

[Whatever Dude]

If you don't see the irony, maybe you should try a little harder.

Please pick up a dictionary before you reply to me again. k thx

[Nnyco]

templates is the best thing they added for pvp, no more leeching for new chars or some retarded cheese happening

[Mafic]

Templates should be removed.

They are so bad and promote cookie cutter play.

[Caolela]

Templates are a god-send. If PvP feels wrong right now, it's not because of them.

Templates do NOT belong in a MMORPG that has always had customization and gearing choice since it began. If you want OW-type characters, go play it. Or HotS. Or Unreal or Quake. That's what a template system is the equivalent of.

The reason people think this rigged system is OK is because they don't get wrecked when they first start PvP. That's because until they hit P1 they're in queues separate from normal queues where they'd get stomped.

[DeicideUH]

Templates do NOT belong in a MMORPG that has always had customization and gearing choice since it began. If you want OW-type characters, go play it. Or HotS. Or Unreal or Quake. That's what a template system is the equivalent of.

The reason people think this rigged system is OK is because they don't get wrecked when they first start PvP. That's because until they hit P1 they're in queues separate from normal queues where they'd get stomped.

^ In other words, you liked wrecking ungeared people that couldn't fight back.

Templates even the playing field. And, since we are talking PvP, that's exactly what any kind of match needs.

If you want the MMO aspect, go for the WPvP areas and kill people in 1-2 swings. You'll get your fun there. If instances were meant to not be even, then they wouldn't need to have same-size teams, same-level restrictions or other restrictions that try to keep the match balanced. Non-ranked play is meant to be unorganized, not uneven.

[Caolela]

^ In other words, you liked wrecking ungeared people that couldn't fight back.

Templates even the playing field. And, since we are talking PvP, that's exactly what any kind of match needs.

If you want the MMO aspect, go for the WPvP areas and kill people in 1-2 swings. You'll get your fun there. If instances were meant to not be even, then they wouldn't need to have same-size teams, same-level restrictions or other restrictions that try to keep the match balanced. Non-ranked play is meant to be unorganized, not uneven.

In other words...no. I've already talked about this in the thread at post #52 to quellious.

This is the lame-assed meme some of you try to peddle to excuse the Legion rigged system. Most people aren't wanting to smash noobs over and over, they want their customization and choices back. Why?...because it's a fucking MMORPG...not a MOBA or FPS.

The gear/power disparity is no excuse anyway since it never lasted long in WoD. You geared up in a day to a few days and done. Legion's system takes much longer but the disparity is artificially covered up by segregated queues of P1 or above P1. Blizz has lied right through their teeth again...for the umpteenth time.

What if they gave the same handicap to low ilvl raiders at the start of a new tier so they were killing easier bosses in separate queues than the standard raids? There would be a huge outcry of shit fits and aggro.

You want templates, go play a template-type game where it fits the genre. Templates do not belong in a game like WoW.

[Mafic]

^ In other words, you liked wrecking ungeared people that couldn't fight back.

Templates even the playing field. And, since we are talking PvP, that's exactly what any kind of match needs.

If you want the MMO aspect, go for the WPvP areas and kill people in 1-2 swings. You'll get your fun there. If instances were meant to not be even, then they wouldn't need to have same-size teams, same-level restrictions or other restrictions that try to keep the match balanced. Non-ranked play is meant to be unorganized, not uneven.

Everyone had the same gear within a month of a PVP season starting (conquest) meaning there was no difference pre Legion. There was even a catch up mechanic.

What is the catchup mechanic in Legion? AK? AK that everyone benefits from meaning players returning or took an extended time off have no chance of competing? Then you throw in that Legion features shorter PVP seasons and it is a disaster.

Legion where there is a perpetual gear gap, cookie cutter templates and no way to pick talents based on which secondaries you want to focus on.

[DeicideUH]

This is the lame-assed meme some of you try to peddle to excuse the Legion rigged system. Most people aren't wanting to smash noobs over and over, they want their customization and choices back.

Customization and choices? You mean, choosing the right trinkets, neck and rings? Aren't the new honor talents also choices that affect playstyle?

Any customization and choices we need could very well be introduced throught the Honor Talent system. Like I said in a previous post here, they could introduce one or two rows that are all about adjusting your template. Maybe one row allows you to choose a bonus in haste + move speed, critical + leech or versatility + evasion; Another row could have a bunch +stat /-stat choices. That would be choice, without fucking up the template system or power balance.

Why?...because it's a fucking MMORPG...not a MOBA or FPS.

Then go do World PvP, where there's everything a MMORPG has. As long as you queuing for an instance whose purpose is to gather two teams for a match, it's not just a MMORPG anymore.

The gear/power disparity is no excuse anyway since it never lasted long in WoD. You geared up in a day to a few days and done. Legion's system takes much longer but the disparity is artificially covered up by segregated queues of P1 or above P1. Blizz has lied right through their teeth again...for the umpteenth time.

"You geared up in a day to a few days and done". That's pretty much a lie. There were Conquest limits per week. Unless you were so far behind that the catch-up mechanics (that were introduced in MoP only) would allow you to gear up in a week, you'd spend a long time before you were able to even the field. Not to mention that, since you are undergeared, you'll have to lose a ton of games before you have enough "honor from losses" to buy a few pieces.

PvP balance before Legion was simple: ranked was even because everyone there was geared up as best as possible, but casual PvP was a nightmare for casuals because the ranked ones would go there to ROFLstomp noobs. If not for that, why were there fully geared people without any need for Honor queuing for random BGs?

What if they gave the same handicap to low ilvl raiders at the start of a new tier so they were killing easier bosses in separate queues than the standard raids? There would be a huge outcry of shit fits and aggro.

What a stupid comparison. Why do you think we have LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic?
And a PvE boss is, well, a computer. In PvP, it's two players. You have two people trying to have fun.

You want templates, go play a template-type game where it fits the genre. Templates do not belong in a game like WoW.

I don't think it's up to you to define what belongs in WoW.

[Osmeric]

While templates may have seemed like a good idea, they removed incentive to do PvP at all, and were a net negative to the game.

The reward structure of PvP in Legion just didn't work, and has to be changed. If it's not relevant gear it has to be something just as good.

[DeicideUH]

What is the catchup mechanic in Legion? AK? AK that everyone benefits from meaning players returning or took an extended time off have no chance of competing? Then you throw in that Legion features shorter PVP seasons and it is a disaster.

If you paid attention to my former posts, you'd notice I blamed AP as one of the reasons PvP is off.
Templates are not the problem. The problem are uneven toolkits and Artifact Power. If you want to bash something, bash those, not the templates.

Legion where there is a perpetual gear gap, cookie cutter templates and no way to pick talents based on which secondaries you want to focus on.

Again, something I suggested above. I agree that Honor Talents should allow Template customization.

But that does not mean the template system needs to be removed.

[Osmeric]

The problem are uneven toolkits and Artifact Power.

No, the problem was that for too many people, PvP just wasn't worth doing.

I think this showed that lots of people had been doing PvP because they had been bribed into it, not because they found it intrinsically fun. The devs may just conclude that PvP is far less important than the earlier bribery-inflated stats had made it seem.

[cparle87]

Templates will be removed. PVP player base shrank because of templates and pruning.

There's this guy who has a sig about that. He basically says the most important thing to make a successful pvp game is to protect the players from fair fights while still letting them think they're good. Sounds like you're one of those guys.

[DeicideUH]

No, the problem was that for too many people, PvP just wasn't worth doing.

I think this showed that lots of people had been doing PvP because they had been bribed into it, not because they found it intrinsically fun. The devs may just conclude that PvP is far less important than the earlier bribery-inflated stats had made it seem.

You do have a point there.

I'm doing PvP (mostly casual) because I find it fun. And because of the Prestige system (thought, without the Prestige system, I'd still do it, just a little less, and with more alts).

But, if the problem is in the rewards, then the discussion should be "what rewards should be added", not "remove templates".

[Mafic]

If you paid attention to my former posts, you'd notice I blamed AP as one of the reasons PvP is off.
Templates are not the problem. The problem are uneven toolkits and Artifact Power. If you want to bash something, bash those, not the templates.

Templates makes artifact power creep worse because of template adjustments some specs will scale better than others.

Templates should be removed, because Blizz has been capable of normalization of PVP in previous expansions. Template are currently used as a way to change PVP auras in a blanket, haphazard fashion. In previous expansions Blizz had to do "extra work" to change certain spells to work different in PVP versus PVE as well as number tuning.

- - - Updated - - -

There's this guy who has a sig about that. He basically says the most important thing to make a successful pvp game is to protect the players from fair fights while still letting them think they're good. Sounds like you're one of those guys.

That is the Overwatch design you are talking about where there are ultimate abilities to create parity so the highly skilled players do not dominate completely.

In WoW, Blizz has created parity with RNG but taken to the extreme with Legion.

Let me add that you fail to realize that pre Legion everyone had the same gear so skill could truly be determined. Now? One person has better gear but the other person has rank 20 concordance? Good luck determining "skill".

No one expects PVP to be 100% skill as the Overwatch example I cited as well as RNG in WoW. However, templates doesn't improve the skill playing field as it makes it worse.

[cparle87]

Templates makes artifact power creep worse because of template adjustments some specs will scale better than others.

Templates should be removed, because Blizz has been capable of normalization of PVP in previous expansions. Template are currently used as a way to change PVP auras in a blanket, haphazard fashion. In previous expansions Blizz had to do "extra work" to change certain spells to work different in PVP versus PVE as well as number tuning.

- - - Updated - - -



That is the Overwatch design you are talking about where there are ultimate abilities to create parity so the highly skilled players do not dominate completely.

In WoW, Blizz has created parity with RNG but taken to the extreme with Legion.

Let me add that you fail to realize that pre Legion everyone had the same gear so skill could truly be determined. Now? One person has better gear but the other person has rank 20 concordance? Good luck determining "skill".

No one expects PVP to be 100% skill as the Overwatch example I cited as well as RNG in WoW. However, templates doesn't improve the skill playing field as it makes it worse.

So what you're saying is you don't want a guy who has invested in his character is stronger than someone who has invested less. Thanks for clearing that up. A guy with 20 points in Concordance should be able to curbstomp who has significantly less. He's earned it.

Templates allow Blizzard to tune spells and specs without having to nerf them in pve. I remember when my druid's berserk lasted 30 seconds, broke fear, and made me immune to it for the duration. Note these were the days when a feared tank lost aggro. I could no sell a boss's fear, sometimes two if timing went right. But no. The pvp'ers cried it was OP so it got nerfed. If we'd had templates from the start this wouldn't have happened.

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World PvP is insufferable now too because there's 0 PvP gear to stabilize it.

You mean world pvp is insufferable because it doesn't use templates, which enables things like rogues globalling people, healers no one can kill, and two tanks fighting each other crushing anyone else who comes close like ordinary people being crushed by two wrestling giants?

[Charge me Doctor]

Actually it was:

Battlestance -> Charge -> Hamstrig -> MS -> Berserker Stance ->Whirlwind -> Battlestance -> Overpower ->Berserker Stance -> Intercept ->Deff stance ->Revenge, Shieldblock, Shieldwall -> Battlestance -> MS and so on ...

Abilities had stance requirements and you had to actively change them depending on what you are planning on doing next, wrong stance? Too bad. You even had to equip a shield for certain abilities.

None sane player used to play like that, everyone simply macroed bunch of abilities together, in the end it was just 3-6 buttons + fear anyways. I never understood this "stance dance was fun" argument, it wasn't it just required you to macro your abilities before you can use them, which basically removed them from the game. With later abundance of internet knowledge, literally everyone who took their warrior seriously had all stances macroed to appropriate abilities, blizzard removed that bullshit and people started flipping tables, probably because "now i'm no better than random joe who wasn't smart enough to google stance macroes! now he has a chance to beat me which shouldn't happen because i play longer than he does!"

[bewbew]

In other words...no. I've already talked about this in the thread at post #52 to quellious.

This is the lame-assed meme some of you try to peddle to excuse the Legion rigged system. Most people aren't wanting to smash noobs over and over, they want their customization and choices back. Why?...because it's a fucking MMORPG...not a MOBA or FPS.

The gear/power disparity is no excuse anyway since it never lasted long in WoD. You geared up in a day to a few days and done. Legion's system takes much longer but the disparity is artificially covered up by segregated queues of P1 or above P1. Blizz has lied right through their teeth again...for the umpteenth time.

What if they gave the same handicap to low ilvl raiders at the start of a new tier so they were killing easier bosses in separate queues than the standard raids? There would be a huge outcry of shit fits and aggro.

You want templates, go play a template-type game where it fits the genre. Templates do not belong in a game like WoW.

I'm glad someone already posted what I Was going to.

This nonsense about "Oh, you want to 2 shot people who are new"....

No.

Gearing was atainable to everyone during WoD, for instance. There was NO gear gap at all between players once they farmed their set; add to this the fact that caps would get bigger as weeks went by without you playing, and everyone was on an equal level.

The difference? They had a reward, other than cosmetic crap exclusive for top of the ladder, best PvPers, as we currently have.

Cata, MoP, WoD all had gearing systems that made it possible for people who aren't the best at the game to still play Rated PvP, be it Arenas or RBGs, earn their sets and thus feel they were REWARDED in participating in the game. All these expansions had PvP players pools that were significantly bigger than current; all these expansions had active in-server PvP duelers, PvP guilds and other PvP activities that were relevant.

At some point, not sure exactly when, people started to think the solution to all WoW woes is to have a "balanced", "fair" game, that rewards "Skill"; Ignoring completly that some people are just worse than others, and that if you continue with this mindset, you'll soon end up with a dead game - as it is now in PvP.

They fail to understand this is a RPG, where character customization AND gearing up are relevant parts of the game, and fail to understand that for even a PvP game to be popular, it needs to both reward it's less skilled players and allow them to play easier roles while still contributing and being part of a team.

Even League of Legends, which is among the most popular PvP games out there, acchieves this by giving rewards to everyone (IP, artifact skins, keys, among many others, which are NOT tied to skill; and then giving season rewards that, at the highest, is Gold elo, a very entry-level point for anyone really trying) AND by having several characters that have a low skill floor and ceilling but that are somewhat effective, allowing you to play even with people who aren't the best - and to do it for more than it's "casual" mode with no rewards.

[Charge me Doctor]

Templates do NOT belong in a MMORPG that has always had customization and gearing choice since it began. If you want OW-type characters, go play it. Or HotS. Or Unreal or Quake. That's what a template system is the equivalent of.

The reason people think this rigged system is OK is because they don't get wrecked when they first start PvP. That's because until they hit P1 they're in queues separate from normal queues where they'd get stomped.

It also helps people who play anything but resto shaman/holy paladin/arms warrior/frost DK

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Everyone had the same gear within a month of a PVP season starting (conquest) meaning there was no difference pre Legion. There was even a catch up mechanic.

You had the same gear only if you participate in PvP from the very beginning of the season. I know it will be a surprise for you, but not all players play same amount of hours and play said hours at the same time. And even more shocking - some players joined PvP season LATE! I know, it's crazy, who would want to join PvP season having only 60% of their supposed stat budget and, basically get beaten to death for 10 hours to get their blue/old set of pvp gear