Templates Gone: Anyone Else Wanna See This?

[bewbew]

You had the same gear only if you participate in PvP from the very beginning of the season. I know it will be a surprise for you, but not all players play same amount of hours and play said hours at the same time. And even more shocking - some players joined PvP season LATE! I know, it's crazy, who would want to join PvP season having only 60% of their supposed stat budget and, basically get beaten to death for 10 hours to get their blue/old set of pvp gear

Did you even play WoD?

Hit 100.

Join an RBG yolo group, or do some Ashran.

Walk out with 15k thousand conquest. Full set was what, 21k?

With a catch up mechanic that helped if you started late.

[Charge me Doctor]

Any customization and choices we need could very well be introduced throught the Honor Talent system. Like I said in a previous post here, they could introduce one or two rows that are all about adjusting your template. Maybe one row allows you to choose a bonus in haste + move speed, critical + leech or versatility + evasion; Another row could have a bunch +stat /-stat choices. That would be choice, without fucking up the template system or power balance.

It already exists. 1st tier is basically "how i handle CC", second tier is "i will be slippery and deal a lot of damage", "haste" and "i want a big opening", their tier "passive mitigation", "i have 3 melee on me pls halp can't cast", "active mitigation", fourth tier is "i need a way to survive being locked down", or "another set of passive mitigation", or "strip druid of all hots to secure a kill"
At least for my mage.
First tier being universal to all classes
Second tier being universal to DPS casters
3rd and 4th tier are mage tiers

- - - Updated - - -

Did you even play WoD?

Hit 100.

Join an RBG yolo group, or do some Ashran.

Walk out with 15k thousand conquest. Full set was what, 21k?

With a catch up mechanic that helped if you started late.

You walked out with 2k-10k of conquest after 2-6 hours of Ashran. It's a lot of time to fucking start PvP, and it's not just "time" it's time you spent losing, because of unavoidable disadvantage. It took basically a week of doing PvP daily (Ashran and queuing for daily BG) at best (sometimes i couldn't even grab a win of the day on BG because it was that awful).

And just a reminder of how Ashran used to be in WoD - you queue for it for half of a hour, play for 90 minutes, die when boss at 5% and get no reward. End up with 500 conquest (at best!, but lets roll with a guaranteed 200 points, ok?) after spending 2 hours "playing" (afking while everyone gathers up, then spam AE to kill fools, die from a single aimed shot/execute, rinse and repeat). So, you have to win 100 Ashran queues just to get full set of conquest, just so you can start "big boy PvP". Yeah, templates are better than that shit. Ashran, my ass

[Zigrifid]

Ok so the OP said that he enjoyed helping people in world pvp, well you still can cause pvp template doesnt work in world pvp,you can always gear up from one m+10 per week (if you think that one m+ is too much time then cancel your sub) and have 940illv gear and "wreck" people in w-pvp, the way i see it you luck skills and you just whine cause you cant "ilvl-wreck" people, which is more cancerous than pvp template, i hope they keep the template and find a way of adding it in world pvp.

[Alvito]

Templates will be removed. PVP player base shrank because of templates and pruning.

Limiting the ease of changing specs/class is also a major reason why pvp fell off in Legion. In previous expansion you could very easily change to suit your teams needs or to some fotm spec if you wanted. Weapon progression made that a much larger under taking this time around.

[bewbew]

You walked out with 2k-10k of conquest after 2-6 hours of Ashran. It's a lot of time to fucking start PvP, and it's not just "time" it's time you spent losing, because of unavoidable disadvantage. It took basically a week of doing PvP daily (Ashran and queuing for daily BG) at best (sometimes i couldn't even grab a win of the day on BG because it was that awful).

And just a reminder of how Ashran used to be in WoD - you queue for it for half of a hour, play for 90 minutes, die when boss at 5% and get no reward. End up with 500 conquest after spending 2 hours "playing" (afking while everyone gathers up, then spam AE to kill fools, die from a single aimed shot/execute, rinse and repeat)

It takes a freaking WEEK of playing PvP to even have your base set of TALENTS, or in other words, YOUR BASIC CLASS FUNCTIONALITY, under the new system.

And while you do it, your class feels absolutly incomplete.

To compare that with "Having worse gear for a couple of games" is ludicruous.

[Charge me Doctor]

Ok so the OP said that he enjoyed helping people in world pvp, well you still can cause pvp template doesnt work in world pvp,you can always gear up from one m+10 per week (if you think that one m+ is too much time then cancel your sub) and have 940illv gear and "wreck" people in w-pvp, the way i see it you luck skills and you just whine cause you cant "ilvl-wreck" people, which is more cancerous than pvp template, i hope they keep the template and find a way of adding it in world pvp.

Imagine attacking someone in PvP and combat-anime-style cutscene runs in (you know, with trippy moving/flashing background and closeup on face), then you both get reset CDs and full health/resource and applied templates. Lol.

[Zigrifid]

Imagine attacking someone in PvP and combat-anime-style cutscene runs in (you know, with trippy moving/flashing background and closeup on face), then you both get reset CDs and full health/resource and applied templates. Lol.

[Charge me Doctor]

It takes a freaking WEEK of playing PvP to even have your base set of TALENTS, or in other words, YOUR BASIC CLASS FUNCTIONALITY, under the new system.

And while you do it, your class feels absolutly incomplete.

To compare that with "Having worse gear for a couple of games" is ludicruous.

It takes exactly 50k honour to open all your talents (not a "base set" whatever you mean by that), so if you login just to do 4 PvP WQs and log off every day (spending about 20 minutes per day) you'll get to this amount in 50k/1,4k a month of not doing any PvP activity. Which is IMO fine, if you don't do PvP - you don't get PvP rewards.
Now lets amp it up to, say, logging in two times per day for 1 hour each time, making it to two arena WQs and doing a daily win on BG (300) and arena (250) - 2450 honour per day, almost three weeks, which is acceptable for someone who does casual PvP but doesn't grind shit.
If you do want to grind shit you'll do it in a week of casual grind tops (bonus points for being smart and doing it on pvp week), unranked (read: cheesy) arena gives you 100 honour per win, so grab a frost DK and arms warrior friend for your holy paladin and get your 600 honour per hour.

And all of above are done in relative balanced PvP thanks to templates, it's not a struggle of getting too close to a warrior who will simply cut you down with a cleave or execute proc

[docterfreeze]

Funny that even with all these tuning knobs there is still some breakout S tier class after each hotfix/patch. I haven't noticed a difference in balance from previous expansions, and for all the sacrifices that had to be made in order for templates to come in... I'd say it wasn't worth it.

- - - Updated - - -

Templates are the most cancerous shit ever fucking put into PvP.

Fuck e-sports I am so sick of deadbeats trying to revive that shit for WoW PvP. IT'S A FUCKING MMO, WHY ARE STAT TEMPLATES EVEN A THING. GIVE ME MY CHARACTER PROGRESSION BACK YOU ASSHOLES.

Why are we trying to appease the 1% elitist assholes who want super balanced PvP? Just give me my fun casual PvP and character progression back. World PvP is insufferable now too because there's 0 PvP gear to stabilize it.

I thought it was the casuals who never PvP'd in their life whining about not being able to 1v1 some guy who put a hundred hours into gearing their character that brought along templates.

[Louz]

Did you even play WoD?

Hit 100.

Join an RBG yolo group, or do some Ashran.

Walk out with 15k thousand conquest. Full set was what, 21k?

With a catch up mechanic that helped if you started late.

Alright, let's go with your hypothesis that you can join RBG with a fresh toon or "do some Ashran" and get enough points to get full gladiator gear in a day.

So then what, then you're on level with people who have been grinding it since day one? Like... you have... same... stats? Wew, almost seems like a stat template and all that hard work and licking wounds and whatever buzzwords and phrases people throw around here, were all in vain.

Oh but you can choose which armor you want, the one with haste+mastery which is currently your best option, or would you go with crit+vers which is totally shit... What does the guide say, haste+mastery? Okay, let's grab the first one, just like anyone else playing that spec, good thing we have these "options", right?

Not saying current system is perfect, far from that.

My main grudge with it lies in the fact that you're better off grinding PvE to get stat advance in PvP, not the other way around like it used to be.

Also the fact that even with stat templates and spells behaving differently in PvP, there are still some classes that can tear you apart in a single stun while having their defensives up.

[klaps_05]

Arena and RBGs without templates are pointless - you need to have equal grounds. I am not sure why they decided to remove the gear tho, they could have just kept the gear via vendor where you can buy it for points and keep the templates turned on in arena/rbg.

[DeicideUH]

Also the fact that even with stat templates and spells behaving differently in PvP, there are still some classes that can tear you apart in a single stun while having their defensives up.

Class toolkits are very uneven in Legion. That's what really bothers me. On one tip, you have Survival Hunter, with 20s Harpoon gap closer, reticule-ased CC, no stun, no burst (thought good sustained) and almost no active defenses (the only big one leaves you unable to attack and can't be used while CC'ed). On the other, you have some warrior with multiple charges, heroic jump, great burst, ranged stun, mass fear and a defensive skill that makes him parry most melee attacks.

They just can't compete.

[Osmeric]

I thought it was the casuals who never PvP'd in their life whining about not being able to 1v1 some guy who put a hundred hours into gearing their character that brought along templates.

I think the Legion PvP design was more motivated by the elimination of any need whatsoever for PvE players to do PvP. In previous expansions, PvP was often the easiest way to gear up new characters for entry into PvE.

[Omaski]

My biggest annoyance with templating is secondaries getting completely gutted no matter what, when you have a strong interaction with a particular stat (i.e., crit). Using that example, if your spec has 3 positive interactions with crit and your template basically halves what you have in your normal gear, it makes playing instanced pvp EXTREMELY less fun/more boring.

I wouldn't mind my damage being tuned around pvp, or some type of adjustments given what wpvp is...but just don't destroy secondaries in the template while doing it.

Agreed^^^
This is basically why I despise templates with a passion. I play Ret Pally and Im constantly focused down in arena, the key strat against Rets anyway (force bubble>switch>Ret dies), in Wod, i could focus on versatility to be a bit more tankier thru forging/gemming, but now i have no customization...basically Blizz told the PvP players you will play the way we say you should not being able to customize yourself to lessen your weaknesses.

like someone said previously, the only reason templates were added was because casuals raged at not being able to 1v1 a person who put months of time/effort into getting their gear/stats for their toon. its an MMORPG, if you put 50% more time into something, you deserve to be 50% better than someone else.

[Neverlife]

Nope, Templates are the best thing to happen to WoW PvP since.. battlegrounds in Vanilla.

[Omaski]

Alright, let's go with your hypothesis that you can join RBG with a fresh toon or "do some Ashran" and get enough points to get full gladiator gear in a day.

So then what, then you're on level with people who have been grinding it since day one? Like... you have... same... stats? Wew, almost seems like a stat template and all that hard work and licking wounds and whatever buzzwords and phrases people throw around here, were all in vain.

Oh but you can choose which armor you want, the one with haste+mastery which is currently your best option, or would you go with crit+vers which is totally shit... What does the guide say, haste+mastery? Okay, let's grab the first one, just like anyone else playing that spec, good thing we have these "options", right?

Not saying current system is perfect, far from that.

My main grudge with it lies in the fact that you're better off grinding PvE to get stat advance in PvP, not the other way around like it used to be.

Also the fact that even with stat templates and spells behaving differently in PvP, there are still some classes that can tear you apart in a single stun while having their defensives up.

That is the same way people gear up now...only it took half the time in WoD, because you only have to do ass'ram and a few 2s...but now, you have to do dozens of WQs, LFR, Mythic+, Raiding. in addition to to honor talents (which some classes need maxed to be competitive) and artifact upgrade w/ concordance.

[Mafic]

So what you're saying is you don't want a guy who has invested in his character is stronger than someone who has invested less. Thanks for clearing that up. A guy with 20 points in Concordance should be able to curbstomp who has significantly less. He's earned it.

No what I am saying is Blizzard is trying to straddle the fence and it is angering both sides of the PVP player base. They say they want PVP to be fair but then give PVErs an advantage in PVP who on average have higher ilevel and higher concordance? Either PVP is about skill or gear matters? And if gear matters then PVP gear acquisition needs to be improved along with AP rewards. AP rewards in PVP are pitiful compared to PVE.

S
Templates allow Blizzard to tune spells and specs without having to nerf them in pve. I remember when my druid's berserk lasted 30 seconds, broke fear, and made me immune to it for the duration. Note these were the days when a feared tank lost aggro. I could no sell a boss's fear, sometimes two if timing went right. But no. The pvp'ers cried it was OP so it got nerfed. If we'd had templates from the start this wouldn't have happened.

Blizz has been able to tune spell and specs without changing PVE since Cataclysm (eg Find Weakness). Stop buying Blizz kool aid! Templates are a lazy way for them to nerf broadly without tuning single spells or specs.

You mean world pvp is insufferable because it doesn't use templates, which enables things like rogues globalling people, healers no one can kill, and two tanks fighting each other crushing anyone else who comes close like ordinary people being crushed by two wrestling giants?

World PVP was balanced because there was scaling tech, resilience and PVP actually rewarded competitive gear compare to PVE. In other words templates are superfluous and pointless. Even more so when Blizz refuses to use templates in world PVP.

- - - Updated - - -

You had the same gear only if you participate in PvP from the very beginning of the season. I know it will be a surprise for you, but not all players play same amount of hours and play said hours at the same time. And even more shocking - some players joined PvP season LATE! I know, it's crazy, who would want to join PvP season having only 60% of their supposed stat budget and, basically get beaten to death for 10 hours to get their blue/old set of pvp gear

There was catchup mechanisms in place since MoP! Thanks for proving you didn't PVP in MoP or WoD!

Within a month you could have the same gear as a 2600 rated glad or be near the same level of power! In WoD you could have 4-5 epic pieces within days of reaching level 100. In Legion? You are lucky you can obtain 910 pieces from Argus within a month and that is assuming you finished all the PVE quest lines and unlocking of artifact weapon and the gating of PVE prorgression via mission table 3.0.

- - - Updated - - -

Did you even play WoD?

Hit 100.

Join an RBG yolo group, or do some Ashran.

Walk out with 15k thousand conquest. Full set was what, 21k?

With a catch up mechanic that helped if you started late.

Yeah it baffles me how people saying gearing was hard for PVP pre legion when they literally rained epics doing PVP within a few days. In Legion the 910 argus gear is literally still inferior than the average ilevel of top players (930-940 ilevel) meaning that if a player falls behind they have no hope of catching up gear wise, and artifact points.

Legion having shorter seasons hurts too.

- - - Updated - - -

Limiting the ease of changing specs/class is also a major reason why pvp fell off in Legion. In previous expansion you could very easily change to suit your teams needs or to some fotm spec if you wanted. Weapon progression made that a much larger under taking this time around.

It is not just the artifact weapon progression but also because gearing up alts isn't so simple in Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

It takes a freaking WEEK of playing PvP to even have your base set of TALENTS, or in other words, YOUR BASIC CLASS FUNCTIONALITY, under the new system.

And while you do it, your class feels absolutly incomplete.

To compare that with "Having worse gear for a couple of games" is ludicruous.

A week to grind out full honor talents.

A week to grind out quests to unlock artifact.

Assuming you can gear up to 910+ plus within a week if you know what you are doing...that is three weeks and you are still behind due to AP.

[Hyral]

Reading this thread I think it is important to make the distinction between stat templates and item level scaling.

-Item level scaling was developed during the WoD beta (I think early versions of it were used in previous betas too) and is the system used for timewalking dungeons and raids and was used for the item level scaling PvP gear in WoD.

-Stat templates are a new system introduced in Legion that goes on top of the item level scaling to change a players stats to fit a predertimed template. It is separate from item level scaling.

They are different systems. I believe what most PvPers are upset about is losing that control of their playstyle, not necessarily item level. Moreover you can still stomp low geared people in BGs, specially now in 7.3. The difference between a 800 ilvl and 900 ilvl is of 10% stats. Sounds small until you open your character window and increase every stat you see there by 10%. Blessing of Kings was reworked because a 10% increase across the board was considered overpowering because of how high item levels have become. Now image a newbie 810 fighting a 940. Not only is he at disadvantage from the ridiculous stat difference but also from their artifact, since if I remember correctly artifact levels also give you stat increases in PvP, and on top of that from lacking a basic toolkip for PvP gated behind an honor grind. What legion has done with stat templates, artifacts and honor talents in PvP is actually puts barriers on your chosen playstyle and still keep the stat differences.

The new system didn't fix the previous problems, just used lawyer talk to make it sound like they are gone and introduced new ones.

[Klingers]

I'll be blunt: I spent the last 5 expansions coming in late to PvP, getting stomped by players with a high ilvl, and giving up. It's not fun, it's grinding, unfair and punishing. It's not even close to a level playing field. No amount of skill gap can close twice the health pool and damage output.

In Legion I'm actually motivated to give a shit. I can contribute to my team, not be a burden. Templates are a wonderful thing.

[Hyral]

I'll be blunt: I spent the last 5 expansions coming in late to PvP, getting stomped by players with a high ilvl, and giving up. It's not fun, it's grinding, unfair and punishing. It's not even close to a level playing field. No amount of skill gap can close twice the health pool and damage output.

In Legion I'm actually motivated to give a shit. I can contribute to my team, not be a burden. Templates are a wonderful thing.

What you are praising is item level scaling, not templates.