Tank meta for Antorus

[Gorsameth]

You know except every guild, for several months, had to use Guardian Druids and only Guardian Druids for KJ. That's balanced.

Which AGAIN, had nothing to do with their tanking power and everything to do with Roar.

Without the raid wide movement speed requirements on KJ you would not have seen anywhere close to the druid dominance.

[Tehterokkar]

Issue with Paladin is that their health pool is way too low compared to other tanks. Without a CD or Active mitigation, they literally can get 2 hit by Avatar or KJ on Mythic.

Paladin active mitigation is the strongest in the game, but it has gaps, which makes it inconsistent. If you have a gap in your active mitigation as a Paladin, you will get pounded to death.

DK solves the gap in active mitigation issue(as in they can't DS every 2nd GCD always) by having the highest health pool out of any tank. So while they suffer from the same issues as Paladin, where they are kind of a weak meat shield without their active mitigation, they make up for it with a massive health pool.

But Paladin does bring the best utility out of a tank class overall. There are so many things you can use Spell-immunity for to soak stuff, or to in general reduce damage taken. It also brings a raid CD, which admittedly has limited use, but for fights that you can use it, it is amazing.

But then again, Druids and Monks dominate because they are simple and have answers to everything.

[Jastall]

Congrats, you completed EN after prot war nerfs and top guilds had it on farm already.

The world first cenarius had 4, yes FOUR prot wars ffs.

Before multiple ignore pain nerfs Prot Wars took almost no damage at all, and their utility was literally the best in the game when their leech buff stacked with other prot wars. Them being so ridiculously strong in EN progression directly led to them being nerfed to mid tier for pretty much the rest of the xpac.

Yeah, because IP's scaling was wonky as fuck so it was overpowered at level 100 and in the early days of Legion. Even without the nerf it would have dropped down in usefulness dramatically.

Still funny that Warriors were swiftly nerfed to the ground within half a raid so hard it took until Tomb for them to be good, but Guardians have been the undisputed kings of Legion tanking ever since due to having insane mitigation as well as crazy amounts of utility and barely saw any nerf whatsoever.

And then there are those poor DHs.

[dirtybrew]

Druid and DK will be top.

Monk will fall off due to in creased magic damage this tier and a worthless tier bonus.

Paladins could be decent if there aren't too many bosses that do high auto attack damage like in TOS. Still held back by design flaws

Wars and DHs will be the same if no buffs.

[Raiju]

Which AGAIN, had nothing to do with their tanking power and everything to do with Roar.

Without the raid wide movement speed requirements on KJ you would not have seen anywhere close to the druid dominance.

Even without roar they are pretty favourable for KJ being able to ignore key knockbacks, be mobile across the platform, passively soak meteors, and easily soak fel claws. Most tanks have a short coming in one of those categories which while can be overcome, bears just handle easily.

@Tehterokkar spellwarding is nice for raid utility, but on tank mechanics AMS often trumps it since mobs will explicitly retarget with spellwarding due to the immunity status vs AMS's absorb status (that still negates debuffs if not fully eaten), on a significantly shorter cooldown at that. Not to say paladins are low utility, just that spellwardings personal use has been really poor in both NH & tos due to bosses retargeting.

[Elbob]

Reading is hard apparently.. as the person you're responding to said, druids were brought for Stampeding Roar on a 1 minute CD. World first guilds have said that's the reason. I'll take their word over yours.

Ayyyyeee I legit quoted his whole post and it doesn't say anything about it. hmmmmm..... you think if I quote it again it will show up?

I hate it when people don't quote whole posts to you fail to see context of an argument. You know kinda like who you did... by grabbing a snippet to make yourself look like you were disproving me when all your point did was fuel mine that bears were crazy ahead of the curve... all you did was add a reason I didn't list. If you want you can look up all the other bosses and see a large disparity in tank classes. The picture I posted was just a silly meme i expect most people in the tank community to know at this point that exemplifies how commonly used bears are. But if you want to add some actual context to the thread you are always welcome.

[Damaz]

All tanks, apart from pally, are pretty close at the moment, this has been said by several of the world first guilds tanks. It's utility that makes the difference mostly and for instance roar is a great utility for a raid. And 'hardly any nerfs' on guardian ... remember mark of Ursol? (rip).

[Tech614]

Even without roar they are pretty favourable for KJ being able to ignore key knockbacks, be mobile across the platform, passively soak meteors, and easily soak fel claws. Most tanks have a short coming in one of those categories which while can be overcome, bears just handle easily.

Ignore knockbacks? DHs, Wars, Monk can all ignore them.

Be mobile? All of the above are more mobile.

Passively soak Armageddon? The only tank that has any issue soaking one is a prot pal if they don't have bop or bubble up. Literally every other tanks hits their AM button(or vamp in blood's case) and soaks it just fine. Brewmaster can even soak it without a CD with 5 stacks of felclaws ffs.

Easily soak felclaws? Blood, Brewmaster and Prot War all laugh at it. Blood gets a massive death strike and blood shield after every hit, brewmaster heals to full with legendary belt after every hit, and prot war blocks every hit of it. All are better at it then druid.

Brewmaster and Prot War literally have none of the drawbacks you claim they have. They're a minority tank on KJ because they lack roar, no other reason.

Blood wouldn't get much use on the fight either without the 3 tank strat that became the norm, and GG being a key to making the 2nd transition a joke.

When Sco tells you the reason they used double guardian was the roar, you shouldn't need me explaining it to you. Take his word for it, he has no reason to lie about it.

You have tanks who didn't play a guardian for progression in all of ToS hopping on their alt for the fight with less gear. It wasn't about tanking anything, it was about roar.

[Exigent]

Ayyyyeee I legit quoted his whole post and it doesn't say anything about it. hmmmmm..... you think if I quote it again it will show up?

I hate it when people don't quote whole posts to you fail to see context of an argument. You know kinda like who you did... by grabbing a snippet to make yourself look like you were disproving me when all your point did was fuel mine that bears were crazy ahead of the curve... all you did was add a reason I didn't list. If you want you can look up all the other bosses and see a large disparity in tank classes. The picture I posted was just a silly meme i expect most people in the tank community to know at this point that exemplifies how commonly used bears are. But if you want to add some actual context to the thread you are always welcome.

Since you just demonstrated that reading is hard:

Lastly the fact you even list KJ shows you have no clue what you're talking about as KJ and the druid love has nothing to do with a druids ability to tank as war, DK and brewmaster all are superior mitigation on KJ. The reason druid is used is because of roar, and it's a very unique situation and one of the reasons the boss is poorly designed.

[Dracodraco]

Even without roar they are pretty favourable for KJ being able to ignore key knockbacks, be mobile across the platform, passively soak meteors, and easily soak fel claws. Most tanks have a short coming in one of those categories which while can be overcome, bears just handle easily.

@Tehterokkar spellwarding is nice for raid utility, but on tank mechanics AMS often trumps it since mobs will explicitly retarget with spellwarding due to the immunity status vs AMS's absorb status (that still negates debuffs if not fully eaten), on a significantly shorter cooldown at that. Not to say paladins are low utility, just that spellwardings personal use has been really poor in both NH & tos due to bosses retargeting.

I can't think of any tank mechanic that AMS absorbs that spellwarding wouldn't just completly reset (as it's a spell immunity), to be honest. That's not taking away from DKS having a lower CD on it, mind you - I just don't feel the retargetting bit is really a concern on any content we've seen as of late. Especially as a taunt will fixate a boss on you even during bubble if things haven't changed since I last played paladin in WOD (which I freely admit it might have), so even on stuff where you need the boss to stay on you, it could be used (at the risk of taunt immuning).

[ONCHEhap]

Bears will obviously remain top,as their class design is flawed (or too perfect,depending on how you see it)
Imo monk will likely remain second best or 3rd
DK's damage may not scale very well,but their healthpool does scale insanely well with gear,which means they keep getting stronger and stronger,they're likely to overtake monks even though T21 is absolute ass for blood
Vengeance is looking strong with their T21,maybe not as good as the top 3,but it's looking good.
Not really sure about Paladins and Warriors

[infinit]

if its magic
Druids first then dks
if its Physical
Druids first then monks

[Dracodraco]

Bears will obviously remain top,as their class design is flawed (or too perfect,depending on how you see it)
Imo monk will likely remain second best or 3rd
DK's damage may not scale very well,but their healthpool does scale insanely well with gear,which means they keep getting stronger and stronger,they're likely to overtake monks even though T21 is absolute ass for blood
Vengeance is looking strong with their T21,maybe not as good as the top 3,but it's looking good.
Not really sure about Paladins and Warriors

Being a bit spammy, but remember that tanks can usually get away with running an old tier set fairly easily; Sure, extra stamina etc helps, but it's unlikely to be the difference between you living or not (while more dps is always = more dps due to higher item level for DPS players). I wouldn't put it past DKs running old 4pc/new 2pc; Especially concidering old 2pc gives 2500 vers. For those wondering, 915 heroic legs -> 945 new tier heroic legs = 207 secondary stats. That's the biggest budget item, along with helm/chest, so at *worst* running 4x 915 pieces will cost ~750 secondary stats. It will cost a *ton* of stamina, though, but as stated, as long as it's not the difference between living 2-3 hits or dying, then it's not really consequential. Likewise, it means DPS gets even more tier when a tank doesn't need it to be viable.

TL;DR - old 2pc+4pc gives you basically a free "legendary" affix (-5 RP on DS, 1 less than the bracers), and 1800 extra secondary stats, at the cost of ~3.6-4K stamina. If it isn't nerfed, this is how most of progress will be done (won't change out of old 4pc before you get heroic tomb->mythic antorus level upgrades, if ever, and mythic DKs right now probably needs some sweet titanforges).

[Deleted]

Adding to what Draco said, as a monk I will probably progress Antorus with T20 4pc. The bonuses are just that good and the new one ... let's not talk about it. Sure it costs some stats and there will come a point where it will be worth it to drop T20 just for ilvl, but that will only be relevant for later M bosses.

[ONCHEhap]

Being a bit spammy, but remember that tanks can usually get away with running an old tier set fairly easily; Sure, extra stamina etc helps, but it's unlikely to be the difference between you living or not (while more dps is always = more dps due to higher item level for DPS players). I wouldn't put it past DKs running old 4pc/new 2pc; Especially concidering old 2pc gives 2500 vers. For those wondering, 915 heroic legs -> 945 new tier heroic legs = 207 secondary stats. That's the biggest budget item, along with helm/chest, so at *worst* running 4x 915 pieces will cost ~750 secondary stats. It will cost a *ton* of stamina, though, but as stated, as long as it's not the difference between living 2-3 hits or dying, then it's not really consequential. Likewise, it means DPS gets even more tier when a tank doesn't need it to be viable.

TL;DR - old 2pc+4pc gives you basically a free "legendary" affix (-5 RP on DS, 1 less than the bracers), and 1800 extra secondary stats, at the cost of ~3.6-4K stamina. If it isn't nerfed, this is how most of progress will be done (won't change out of old 4pc before you get heroic tomb->mythic antorus level upgrades, if ever, and mythic DKs right now probably needs some sweet titanforges).

Yeah of course,I never disagreed with that,I know that as blood I'm totally keeping T20 4P unless T21 goes through massive changes,T20 2P is basically free ilvl in form of stats,and as you said,4P is basically bonus wrists legendary

[dcc626]

Adding to what Draco said, as a monk I will probably progress Antorus with T20 4pc. The bonuses are just that good and the new one ... let's not talk about it. Sure it costs some stats and there will come a point where it will be worth it to drop T20 just for ilvl, but that will only be relevant for later M bosses.

still waiting to see if they last minute change the t21 bonus. if not im just gonna stock up on high level offpieces

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah of course,I never disagreed with that,I know that as blood I'm totally keeping T20 4P unless T21 goes through massive changes,T20 2P is basically free ilvl in form of stats,and as you said,4P is basically bonus wrists legendary

unless they see lots of people doing this and they nerf t20. never know.

[Deleted]

Not sure what you're talking about but wars where the dominant tank for EN progression. Monks dominated ToV because they could cheese something on every boss. NH was a toss up between Monk/Druid on a boss to boss basis, and ToS saw Monk/DK/Druid all be pretty much in line with each other.

EN? Lmfao, the tier that lasted a few days, if that. Warriors were really good for about a week, maybe two, and then got nerfed into the ground

[Raiju]

I can't think of any tank mechanic that AMS absorbs that spellwarding wouldn't just completly reset (as it's a spell immunity), to be honest. That's not taking away from DKS having a lower CD on it, mind you - I just don't feel the retargetting bit is really a concern on any content we've seen as of late. Especially as a taunt will fixate a boss on you even during bubble if things haven't changed since I last played paladin in WOD (which I freely admit it might have), so even on stuff where you need the boss to stay on you, it could be used (at the risk of taunt immuning).

It has no personal use on p3 sisters as she will just debuff the other tank, whereas AMS will absorb and immune it. Same situation on botanist where spellwarding would cause the boss in p3 to cast on someone else, likely causing a wipe.

It's not gamebreaking, but it doesn't seem correct that AMS gets all the benefits of an immunity up to it's absorb cap without getting the penalties associated.
@Tech614 I never said at any point it wasn't roar but fact is even ignoring roar guardians cover too many bases and their "slow" movement can beat multiple other tanks.

[ONCHEhap]

It has no personal use on p3 sisters as she will just debuff the other tank, whereas AMS will absorb and immune it. Same situation on botanist where spellwarding would cause the boss in p3 to cast on someone else, likely causing a wipe.

It's not gamebreaking, but it doesn't seem correct that AMS gets all the benefits of an immunity up to it's absorb cap without getting the penalties associated.
@Tech614 I never said at any point it wasn't roar but fact is even ignoring roar guardians cover too many bases and their "slow" movement can beat multiple other tanks.

AMS in P3 of sisters will actually force the boss to apply the dot to a random other player.Your point still stands for botanist though

[Elbob]

It has no personal use on p3 sisters as she will just debuff the other tank, whereas AMS will absorb and immune it. Same situation on botanist where spellwarding would cause the boss in p3 to cast on someone else, likely causing a wipe.

It's not gamebreaking, but it doesn't seem correct that AMS gets all the benefits of an immunity up to it's absorb cap without getting the penalties associated.
@Tech614 I never said at any point it wasn't roar but fact is even ignoring roar guardians cover too many bases and their "slow" movement can beat multiple other tanks.

While I do agree that ams as a spell is probably better than spellwarding(mostly due to being a shorter cd and can provide rp). Spellwarding is better for cheesing mechanics and not just being another defensive cd. Things like fel scythe, maiden smash, w/e the raid soak mechanic was on spellblade, using it soak spores on botanist, 100% shieldwall on Krosus for its duration (obviously when not tanking the boss since the dot did all the damage), we even used it on Staraugur to let our warrior sit on the boss and ignore the 100million damage eye beam and keep executing. In p3 sisters you can put it on some one that gets lunar barrage and they won't drop the silence rings after the dot ends too.

As a spell I don't think Spellwarding's utility is used enough by most players cause they just aren't looking for it. It being castable on other targets is pretty cool.