Make Outlaw Great Again

[MisterBigglez]

SnD is already the go to talent, Assa has more rng than outlaw atm.

SnD has been the go to talent for Outlaw rogues for months at higher gear levels

Why is everyone complaining about how rng it is then lmao

[D3athsting]

With snd outlaw loses its soul going back to old boring combat, at least that terrible bandit's guile is gone
Btw i'm enjoying the shit out of sub that is a true beast in m+ with shoulders+cloak for aoe and shoulders+bracers for st, but i'd like to have another playable spec mostly for m+

[Deleted]

With snd outlaw loses its soul going back to old boring combat, at least that terrible bandit's guile is gone
Btw i'm enjoying the shit out of sub that is a true beast in m+ with shoulders+cloak for aoe and shoulders+bracers for st, but i'd like to have another playable spec mostly for m+

what soul, outlaw has been a garbage specc since launch

[Toogoodman]

Yes please. I want that.

If they brought back old combat, it would warm my heart.

They really fell flat with this outlaw shit, its an awful spec

[shade3891]

I am enjoying Outlaw.. surely not top dps but still doing okay. Have not tried the other specs, cba to farm AP again...

[Deleted]

Reading this thread I wonder how many people actually play outlaw as their main spec.

I'm reading people saying it is not fast-paced. This means either they have never played another rogue spec this addon or they have no clue how to play outlaw. Outlaw has almost no downtime. Last time I checked I had the highest apm count in the raid, because Outlaw is so fast paced.

I' also reading people saying Outlaw is too rng. This means, once again, you either haven't played outlaw since loaded dice or have no clue how to play outlaw. Just to remind the masses that obviously don't play outlaw and still complain: The days of rerolling, for any roll, are over! You just take your garanteed double roll and dps as hard as you can. I would even argue that most other specs are more RNG dependant, since outlaw has no other important procs to rely on. Apart from that, you can go the SnD route and don't worry about rolls at all.


Now I hear you scream "Yo, wtf Kiju. You say Outlaw is fine then?" and I would answer "FUCK NO!"

I wrote it before and I repeat it again:

OUTLAW HAS ALMOST NO SCALING IN THE KIT AND OTHER CLASSES WILL ALWAYS OVERTAKE IT DAMAGE WISE AS THE RAID GEARS UP.

And apart from the scaling issue (no weapon damage, no haste cooldown savings, for example), there is one more thing but a lot of classes suffer from it (but none as hard as outlaw does as far as I know):

TALENTS FUCKING SUCK AND THERE IS NO DIVERSITY.

I swear to god, this thread is the ultimate proof that people complain about shit they have no clue about. How can you even say Outlaw is RNG if you can literally spec out of ALL RNG! No other spec has that! Now whoever still says outlaw is too RNG, remember his name and just don't take him seriously anymore and don't reply to his post. They are hopeless at this point.

To all who would like to seriously discuss how to make "outlaw great again", please, discuss these two points!

How could outlaw have a better scaling with items and stats in general?
How would you change the talents that they are more interesting? There are talents that have zero usage, how would you rework them / change them?

[Deleted]

Reading this thread I wonder how many people actually play outlaw as their main spec.

I'm reading people saying it is not fast-paced. This means either they have never played another rogue spec this addon or they have no clue how to play outlaw. Outlaw has almost no downtime. Last time I checked I had the highest apm count in the raid, because Outlaw is so fast paced.

I' also reading people saying Outlaw is too rng. This means, once again, you either haven't played outlaw since loaded dice or have no clue how to play outlaw. Just to remind the masses that obviously don't play outlaw and still complain: The days of rerolling, for any roll, are over! You just take your garanteed double roll and dps as hard as you can. I would even argue that most other specs are more RNG dependant, since outlaw has no other important procs to rely on. Apart from that, you can go the SnD route and don't worry about rolls at all.


Now I hear you scream "Yo, wtf Kiju. You say Outlaw is fine then?" and I would answer "FUCK NO!"

I wrote it before and I repeat it again:

OUTLAW HAS ALMOST NO SCALING IN THE KIT AND OTHER CLASSES WILL ALWAYS OVERTAKE IT DAMAGE WISE AS THE RAID GEARS UP.

And apart from the scaling issue (no weapon damage, no haste cooldown savings, for example), there is one more thing but a lot of classes suffer from it (but none as hard as outlaw does as far as I know):

TALENTS FUCKING SUCK AND THERE IS NO DIVERSITY.

I swear to god, this thread is the ultimate proof that people complain about shit they have no clue about. How can you even say Outlaw is RNG if you can literally spec out of ALL RNG! No other spec has that! Now whoever still says outlaw is too RNG, remember his name and just don't take him seriously anymore and don't reply to his post. They are hopeless at this point.

To all who would like to seriously discuss how to make "outlaw great again", please, discuss these two points!

How could outlaw have a better scaling with items and stats in general?
How would you change the talents that they are more interesting? There are talents that have zero usage, how would you rework them / change them?

killing spree being baseline and put in another talent there thats new

[Nekroman]

Its been what 6 months? Vandetta poison bomb makes assass infinitely more rng based than outlaw. If you run mfd with bracers randomness is still there, a bit, but most serious raiders have been playing SnD for most if not all of t20... so yea.. most people in this thread are misinformed.

[Deleted]

Reading this thread I wonder how many people actually play outlaw as their main spec.

I'm reading people saying it is not fast-paced. This means either they have never played another rogue spec this addon or they have no clue how to play outlaw. Outlaw has almost no downtime. Last time I checked I had the highest apm count in the raid, because Outlaw is so fast paced.

I' also reading people saying Outlaw is too rng. This means, once again, you either haven't played outlaw since loaded dice or have no clue how to play outlaw. Just to remind the masses that obviously don't play outlaw and still complain: The days of rerolling, for any roll, are over! You just take your garanteed double roll and dps as hard as you can. I would even argue that most other specs are more RNG dependant, since outlaw has no other important procs to rely on. Apart from that, you can go the SnD route and don't worry about rolls at all.


Now I hear you scream "Yo, wtf Kiju. You say Outlaw is fine then?" and I would answer "FUCK NO!"

I wrote it before and I repeat it again:

OUTLAW HAS ALMOST NO SCALING IN THE KIT AND OTHER CLASSES WILL ALWAYS OVERTAKE IT DAMAGE WISE AS THE RAID GEARS UP.

And apart from the scaling issue (no weapon damage, no haste cooldown savings, for example), there is one more thing but a lot of classes suffer from it (but none as hard as outlaw does as far as I know):

TALENTS FUCKING SUCK AND THERE IS NO DIVERSITY.

I swear to god, this thread is the ultimate proof that people complain about shit they have no clue about. How can you even say Outlaw is RNG if you can literally spec out of ALL RNG! No other spec has that! Now whoever still says outlaw is too RNG, remember his name and just don't take him seriously anymore and don't reply to his post. They are hopeless at this point.

To all who would like to seriously discuss how to make "outlaw great again", please, discuss these two points!

How could outlaw have a better scaling with items and stats in general?
How would you change the talents that they are more interesting? There are talents that have zero usage, how would you rework them / change them?

Look at that, yet another confirmation of my belief that IQ of posters on mmo-champion correlates in an inversely proportional manner to his/hers numbers of posts.

[Mafic]

1. Fix the talents. They are weak, boring and many of them not even an options (eg Parley).

2. They are probably going to bake SND and RtB together next expansion.

3. Make Kspree, Alacrity or Cannon Ball Barrage baseline. Anything to make the spec unique at this point.

4. Revert the energy regen nerf to AR.

5. Buff RTB and make SND more interesting.

[Brightamethyst]

I don't have so many issue with the talents themselves. I just think the 90 and 100 rows are weird. The should really have Alacrity and DfA switch places (and buffed or nerfed to compensate.) It's crazy that a haste buff is in the AoE button row while an AoE button is in the "speed" row.

[Pensylvestor]

As someone who has actually gotten multiple outlaw rank 1s in ToS as outlaw (not trying to brag, as no one remotely skillful played the spec at the time, just providing context that I know what I'm talking about, check my logs) I see an incredible amount of misinformation floating around in this thread from either people who have just heard someone say "hur dur outlaw rng shit fest, hur dur" and so they think they know how to play the spec, or people who played the spec on an alt in a dungeon a couple of times and have no clue what they are doing, so they're damage is dog shit, thus they are having a bad time. So needless to say, I'd like to clarify a few things.

Outlaw actually doesn't have quite as big of a variance as you might have thought. When you sim yourself and you look at that dreaded variance percentile and see that it says 20 or even 25%, that seems pretty fucking terrible right? Well that is mostly because of the number of iterations you are running in a sim. If you are running 10k or so iterations, in one of those scenarios, you are bound to get 3+ 5 rolls in a single fight, resulting in a huge dps fluctuation. But if you actually look at the variance graph, you'll see a really large grouping around your simmed dps very close together, with a very sharp drop off getting towards the higher dps iterations you simmed. Basically giving you a variance of 10ish percent, with a 1 in 10k chance of doing huge dick dps.

If you did not know, you don't "reroll" like you used to, you just roll your loaded dice buff off and keep whatever 2 buffs you get. And aside from the attack speed/leech buff, all buffs are pretty close now in terms of dps balance.

Now the current "real" problems with outlaw (assuming we're not just spamming this thread with retarded complete rework ideas or asking for a vanilla spec where we just get 5 combo points then evis and keep snd up because we're too stupid to make decisions) have a lot to do with being extremely dependent on CoF and CoF/frond if you're running SnD. Right now, the lowering of CDs and being able to get a higher uptime on AdR is snowballing the spec into making it completely reliant on how fast you can get those AdRs out, resulting in more combo points spent, resulting in faster CDs on AdR, resulting in even more combo points spent and so on, and so forth. This was way worse with the non nerfed version of true bearing, and without a complete destruction of CoF (I mean like nerf it into the fucking ground, make the proc 1 sec), CoF will be used over most trinkets 50+ilvl higher than it.

Our scaling actually isn't as bad as the other 2 rogue specs as some people have unfortunately tried to point out, as outlaw benefits quite a bit from all stats, whereas sub/sin has a dead stat via haste. We started to see outlaw outperform sub/sin on quite a few fights in NH farm, and now starting to see outlaw pop up on a few single target fights with okish numbers.

Right now outlaw needs a flat damage increase across the board, another extreme buff to killing spree and cannon ball barrage, and depending on the buff to killing spree perhaps a buff for blade flurry, as our aoe is actually pretty terrible compared to most other specs in the game, even with legendary gloves. Also, between the eyes and pistol shot not being affected by blade flurry is pretty dumb and should be changed asap imo. A slight buff to the attack speed buff would be nice to bring it in line or closer to the other rtb buffs would also be needed.

For next expansion, I would really like to see some talent reworks for things like alacrity/dfa and a few others, maybe make rtb a little more interactive as long as it's not the rng shit show it was for EN/NH, and I would like to see the legendary bracers gameplay implemented into the spec baseline. I think that playstyle is actually pretty intuitive and makes the spec have a lot of decisions which, to me, makes it fun.

[Lazuli]

I think outlaw is garbage compared to deep insight ks madness, now we can't even use killing spree... retarded ass devs removing our abilities just to add them back into talents and purposely making them inferior to others so it's 1 less button to press! Genius!

Assassination is the only spec with a decent rotation now

[ymirsson]

I think outlaw is garbage compared to deep insight ks madness, now we can't even use killing spree... retarded ass devs removing our abilities just to add them back into talents and purposely making them inferior to others so it's 1 less button to press! Genius!

Assassination is the only spec with a decent rotation now

removing KS was the single best change from previous combat iterations. freaking suicide skill.

[Demeia]

removing KS was the single best change from previous combat iterations. freaking suicide skill.

I'm kind of mystified by the KS nostalgia as well. Especially after they decided it was too powerful to let us KS through stuns... Jesus, it was a bad talent. The ONLY thing good about it was that they made it hit fairly hard; and they could do that with a less obnoxious button. Oh, the many floors I fell through... I once fell through Throne of Thunder so far we had to cancel the raid, I simply couldn't get out and we had only 10.

[Mafic]

removing KS was the single best change from previous combat iterations. freaking suicide skill.

Kspree wasn't hard to use.

You know what is hard to use? DFA.

Kspree being nerfed and turned into a mediocre talent along with AR being nerfed into a maintenance buff for loaded dice really took a lot of bite out of the Outlaw identity.

If RTB is the new Outlaw identity then buff it! If it is Cannon Ball Barrage then make it baseline! Or as others have said if Pistol Shot and BTE is a core identiy of Outlaw then it should work with Blade Flurry!

[Jyue88]

Kspree wasn't hard to use.

You know what is hard to use? DFA.

Kspree being nerfed and turned into a mediocre talent along with AR being nerfed into a maintenance buff for loaded dice really took a lot of bite out of the Outlaw identity.

If RTB is the new Outlaw identity then buff it! If it is Cannon Ball Barrage then make it baseline! Or as others have said if Pistol Shot and BTE is a core identiy of Outlaw then it should work with Blade Flurry!

I remember Kspree frequently killed me on Iron maindens in BRF, because i'm was an idiot with my timing on using the ability . I don't think DFA is harder to use (as Outlaw) you only use it more often.

I think RtB is the Outlaw identity. It's getting a nice buff with the T21 setbonus. And i disagree with Pistol Shot working with Blade Flurry... Ever seen a single Pistol Shot cleave? it sounds as stupid as applying rend with a Thunderclap.. ( but that used to be a thing)

[Deleted]

If RTB is the new Outlaw identity then buff it! If it is Cannon Ball Barrage then make it baseline! Or as others have said if Pistol Shot and BTE is a core identiy of Outlaw then it should work with Blade Flurry!

Should be nice for the class fantasy yeah !

[Deleted]

And i disagree with Pistol Shot working with Blade Flurry... Ever seen a single Pistol Shot cleave? it sounds as stupid as applying rend with a Thunderclap.. ( but that used to be a thing)

If logic is important then run through doesnt make much sense either. And sabre slash would have to be renamed saber stab with bf off so as to not confuse anyone why its only hitting 1 target.
Luckily those kind of things doesnt have to constrain gameplay and balancing.

[Lightwysh]

Outlaw was great(SnD) until I got the BiS leggo bracers... then it made the rotation feel clunky and not fun at all... Its a shame because it really felt like classic Combat which was one of my favorite specs due to simplicity.