Activision, now rigging you to buy micro transactions.

[ShimmerSwirl]

I had some interest in trying Destiny 2, now I have zero.

[AeneasBK]

wtf is a marquee player?

[Logwyn]

If you ask me, microtransactions should be illegal. But that would be very hard to police / define. It's still immoral.

Eh? How is it immoral to offer a good or service that others can buy? Its not like you are entering a store and in order to leave you have to buy something.

I'd said credit cards are more immoral and should be illegal.... ***grin***

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wtf is a marquee player?

You know one of the Blizzard Buddies that always get a spot in their tourneys and such. Those in the know players?

I have no idea what these are either....

[veehro]

I really don't get the outrage. It's basically using top players as a way to showcase the value of their product, and ensuring the customer feels the value in that purchase.

Would it potentially incentivize more purchases? Sure. So what? People are buying more stuff they want to have, and enjoying what they buy. That's not a "bad thing". Nothing in there suggested they were going to be creating unbalanced matches, which is the only way I'd see this as being "bad", since that would create lower win rates for non-paying customers on purpose.

The problem is that the costumer should know this before making a purchase. Its a reason they kept it hidden to begin with because they knew people wouldn't like it

In this case the proficient players enjoyment is downgraded as he is paired with poor players in his team instead of people as close as possible to skill level. Don't tell me the matchmaking system works to find the most balanced teams when it also has to take into account variables that find people who bough and didnt buy the dlc thus you become an unpaid advertisment for that company unaware whenever you play the game.

Its also for the detriment of gameplay as many times i have played games online and hear people complain about the matchmaking system as your team would get crushed by the oponent. how ever its possible the mm system was working as intented all this time and if this is something they considered who knows what other hidden "Features" the matchmaking has.

[Quibble]

This wouldn't be just about useful items. What about skins and such? Matching you with someone who uses the same character as you, in HoTS for instance, but with a bought skin, may entice a player to get that skin if they like it.

Frankly a game with that sort of policy wouldn't get my money in the first place, and it's not like Activision has a good rep anyway.

Why is it a problem that you get matched against someone with the same character as you, but a bought skin?

If I want a skin, thats up to me. They are not forcing me to buy a skin just by matching me against someone with one.

You can also run into situations like that now. That is another player having some bought skin. If you have no will power to not buy a skin, when you see someone else with it.. Then the problem is with you.

The only situation where I see a problem, is when money buy power. And even then, if the matchmaking system is rigged so you as a new player keep getting matched against way better players. Then I doubt that is gonna cause you to buy power, rather you would be discouraged from playing a game so unevenly matched.

And as the experienced player in that above situation, you would be discouraged from playing by the fact that the game keep matching you with shit players.

I don't see the benefit of this system.

[veehro]

Why is it a problem that you get matched against someone with the same character as you, but a bought skin?

If I want a skin, thats up to me. They are not forcing me to buy a skin just by matching me against someone with one.

You can also run into situations like that now. That is another player having some bought skin. If you have no will power to not buy a skin, when you see someone else with it.. Then the problem is with you.

The only situation where I see a problem, is when money buy power. And even then, if the matchmaking system is rigged so you as a new player keep getting matched against way better players. Then I doubt that is gonna cause you to buy power, rather you would be discouraged from playing a game so unevenly matched.

And as the experienced player in that above situation, you would be discouraged from playing by the fact that the game keep matching you with shit players.

I don't see the benefit of this system.

because it ruins gameplay and the matchmaking system is now sacrificing the right skill ballance in favor of incentivizing you to spend on microtransatcion
You cant have ballance when things that have nothing to do with balancing gameplay are thrown in as variables
This is also not something done above baord, they are not telling their costumers this because they know its shady and most people wouldnt like it

Also if i give them money for a dlc I never consent for that company to use me as an unpaid mascot so they can sell more stuff.

if you like this system thats fine, good for you. But most people see it for what it is. Greedy corporatism at its finest where they push millions of dollars into marketing and teams to figure out schemes like this while at the same time releasing broken games and rush products out the door knowing people like you would defend the multimillion dollar enterprises no matter what

[Quibble]

because it ruins gameplay and the matchmaking system is now sacrificing the right skill ballance in favor of incentivizing you to spend on microtransatcion
You cant have ballance when things that have nothing to do with balancing gameplay are thrown in as variables
This is also not something done above baord, they are not telling their costumers this because they know its shady and most people wouldnt like it

Also if i give them money for a dlc I never consent for that company to use me as an unpaid mascot so they can sell more stuff.

if you like this system thats fine, good for you. But most people see it for what it is. Greedy corporatism at its finest where they push millions of dollars into marketing and teams to figure out schemes like this while at the same time releasing broken games and rush products out the door knowing people like you would defend the multimillion dollar enterprises no matter what

I didn't say I like it or dislike it.

I just do not see the benefit. You say it sacrificies the skill balance in favor of incentivizing you to spend money.
I am saying, I do not see how this could work in their favor.

Seing someone with a skin, doesn't make you suddenly want to spend money on skins, unless you already wanted to in the first place.

And people are gonna get discouraged from games that would use a matchmaking system that keep forcing them against either way better players, or way worse players. Any game that does that would quickly lose players.

So again, I don't see how this system could possibly benefit them, rather it would fuck them over, causing players to leave because of shitty matchmaking.

[Kathandira]

wtf is a marquee player?

A walking billboard. Someone wearing or using something that the company wants them to advertise.

[Ghostpanther]

At some point it enters the realm of manipulation and deception. It's not that many countries don't already have other laws in place to protect customers from less than straight forward practices. You just have to weight against each other the potential personal and social damages some practices can result in *, and the importance of companies being able to use them, or if they could do good business in more honest ways, too.
*) I'm thinking of debts from a very young age on, the possible complications you create for parents that either feel compelled to finance their kids everything, or need to spend enourmous effort to explain why they don't. Which is often quite hard to do, since kids don't have all the parameters to understand the matter well enough, which is why you even risk increased tensions between kids and parents... Sure, it's not an issue if one company does it for one game. But if it works for them, expect the majority of the industry to copy it within half a year. THEN it IS a problem.

You can't really let the free market sort it ALL out. To a large degree yes, but very many people aren't knowledgable or careful enough, or crucial details and long term impacts are intentionally witheld, so that some degree of regulation can pose a big social benefit at the cost of comparably small impacts on a few businesses. But I'm also aware that this whole concept is quite hard to grasp for most Americans, especially the overwhelmingly positive long term aspects.
Full scale economic darwinism only works if either everyone is really smart (hint: not the case) or if you at the same time accept that many will end up on the side lines and resort to crime.

So yeah, offerings can very much be immoral.


And I'd actually agree. Credit cards are one of the biggest scams ever. I've never owned one, and certainly don't want any, and have always been able to by everything I need through equally comfy ways (cash, EC and PayPal mostly). But then again, I also don't buy anything I can't afford. At least not aside from big investments like a car or house, and for those I want/need a proper loan anyways.
Credit cards provide ZERO benefits for the customer, and only add cost to my expenses. And they're dangerous on top of it, because it makes many think they could buy stuff they really couldn't, leading straight into debt-hell in way too many instances. No, thanks.

And both actually come down to the same issue: Both practices make it harder for me to track my finances. So I'll either have to spend much more time on them, or accept that I might not know when I dip into bankrupcy.

That is not true. I get back over 300 dollars every year from using just one of my credit cards in cash rewards. Another 100 or so from one other card. I never pay any interest however, always paying my balance off each statement every month. That is the key. Credit cards can be very useful if used correctly and are great for building up your credit rating. My credit rating is over 800.

But on topic, Blizz will do whatever is legal to make money. The player base only has one way to fight it if they do not like it. Stop playing their games. Look at what has happened with WoW with the game tokens. They are sanctioning gold selling and leveling services.

[spanishninja]

Manipulation? If you played a game (say HoTS or LoL) and every match you were put into was either used to motivate you to buy a new hero or temporarily showing off the hero you just purchased, would that be okay?

So, you buy this niche hero that you're alright with, the first 5 games you play are against a comp that is weak against this specific hero and then after that, you get demolished every single game. That's good?

Or you don't buy heroes and you lose every single game until you buy one and get the aforementioned reward, then circle back to square one.

this system is exactly how most free-to-play games operate in the first place, with the weekly free hero rotations of Heroes of the Storm and LoL and such, and nobody cries about that system because it works. the players have a free way to play the game, and the company increases the chances that eventually they will buy those heroes due to familiarity.

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Other than that the weapon might only be effective on that map? You go to the next map and, if you want to be as effective as you were on the last, you have to buy another weapon...and so on and so forth.

again, if the end result is that you end up being effective (buy upgrading the weapons that make you effective in various maps), and that's what you care about, I still don't see a problem. People who have the resources to advance with microtransactions would ultimately do that anyway.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You'd be amazed at what can be patented.

I bet their algorithm is a lot more complex than it sounds here though.

Oh believe me, I know that it just depends on how uneducated the hack at the patent office is and that they essentially bank on someone else disputing it later. There is a whole industry build around watching out for and disputing nonsense patents, got some fine laughs from some of the excerpts as well, that we get send regularily. Especially the chinese have some mind-boggling ideas, like 2 sided wrenches with a 90° twist in the middle of them.. essentially trying to patent a broken tool as a new one. One of our competitors tried to patent using an electric motor instead of an air-pressure one, when it's literally a 100% modular design by nature and you can whack in what ever motor you want. This is just the latest entry in the saga of continous patent fail. This is more about the absolutely tone-deaf performance of activision here, given the recent talk about microtransactions, and the sheer malicious greed at display that makes this even noteworthy. Well not really, we always knew they were just a bunch of scum-fucks.

[spanishninja]

Is this a real question? It pretty much means you can buy success. It literally says what's the big deal in the last sentence.

allocating of resources has always been big part of success in modern video games, in one way or another. Whether it's microtransactions or spending more time on playing a game (remember time is a resource as well), there is already a cost to success anyway. You can make the same argument that players in top WoW guilds are able to go for World First kills in mythic partly because they spend VASTLY more time playing the game than regular players. Nobody cries about how they are "paying" more in terms of time. With microtransaction-based upgrades, at least a more casual player has the means to better make use of their skill by being on a more level playing field than people who take the week off of work when a game comes out and just no-lifes it to max level. Regardless of how good you are, an ilvl 750 toon is not going to beat an ilvl 945 toon.

[Wildtree]

TL;DR Activision just patented a system for Destiny 2 which matches you against players better than you, to motivate you into buying shortcuts with real money.
https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/...-items-w509288

This seems almost illegal. If not illegal, highly immoral. It targets what potentially is children with underhanded sales tactics. Not only that, but it will intentionally make an unfair match to do so.

Why would that be illegal?
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it against the law.
And the children argument, come on. Under what rock do you live? You never shop at the supermarket?
The checkout section is completely tailored to attract children.. That candy there, that's not for your convenience, it's for mom to have to buy it for spoiled little bratty to stop it throwing a tantrum.

Besides the point... Don't like it, don't buy it. Don't play it.
My fav metaphor, that car.
If I don't like the new Honda, my choice is to buy a Toyota instead.
Products are made for us to decide whether we want to buy and use them, or simply not.
Anything else is counterproductive to the economy. Even products we reject for whatever reason are important, since they add to the economy throughput.

[veehro]

Why would that be illegal?
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it against the law.
And the children argument, come on. Under what rock do you live? You never shop at the supermarket?
The checkout section is completely tailored to attract children.. That candy there, that's not for your convenience, it's for mom to have to buy it for spoiled little bratty to stop it throwing a tantrum.

Besides the point... Don't like it, don't buy it. Don't play it.
My fav metaphor, that car.
If I don't like the new Honda, my choice is to buy a Toyota instead.
Products are made for us to decide whether we want to buy and use them, or simply not.
Anything else is counterproductive to the economy. Even products we reject for whatever reason are important, since they add to the economy throughput.

its not illegal
its not against the law

But consumers have a right to know where their money is going. Some consumers might not be fine with them being used as unpaid adverts for a company they already paid in for that product

[Lahis]

You can make the same argument that players in top WoW guilds are able to go for World First kills in mythic partly because they spend VASTLY more time playing the game than regular players. Nobody cries about how they are "paying" more in terms of time.

Top guilds play less than the rest of us. For them progress is a sprint, long days for a short time but after that it's just short amount of farms every week.


Rest of us scrubs keep raiding the content for full weeks for months before even killing the last boss, not to even mention farming period.

[Wildtree]

its not illegal
its not against the law

But consumers have a right to know where their money is going. Some consumers might not be fine with them being used as unpaid adverts for a company they already paid in for that product

As a consumer of a certain product you are made aware that there will be up-sales. As I said, it is ones own choice.
See my car metaphor. There are up-sales in the thousands of dollars range.
A different exhaust system. Different seats. A more powerful engine. I can transform the whole thing into a race car if I want to.
If I transfer this over to the topic... People here bitching why they can transform their car to a racer and why the manufacturer charges them for it.

[Antiganon]

TL;DR Activision just patented a system for Destiny 2 which matches you against players better than you, to motivate you into buying shortcuts with real money.
https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/...-items-w509288

This seems almost illegal. If not illegal, highly immoral. It targets what potentially is children with underhanded sales tactics. Not only that, but it will intentionally make an unfair match to do so.

First, from your own article:

Activision was granted a patent this month for a system it uses to convince people in multiplayer games to purchase items for a game through microtransactions.

But Activision tells Glixel that the technology is not currently in any games.

"This was an exploratory patent filed in 2015 by an R&D team working independently from our game studios," an Activision spokesperson tells Glixel. "It has not been implemented in-game."

Bungie also confirmed to Glixel that the technology isn't being used in Destiny 2.

The "System and method for driving microtransactions in multiplayer video games" was filed in 2015, but granted on October 17th, according to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

Second, Destiny 2 doesn't have a cash shop per se. It has the Eververse Trading Company, which sells Bright Engrams (loot boxes) for Silver (in game currency purchased with real money, not earnable in game). Bright Engrams provide either loot or dust. You can also obtain dust by breaking down duplicate loot. Dust is used to purchase a limited selection of items from the Eververse Trading Company. That selection rotates on a weekly basis. TL;DR - This system would be less than useless in Destiny 2, as there is no way to target specific items when spending real money.

Third, the loot found in Bright Engrams is cosmetic, and has no effect on player power whatsoever. The only equippable armor drops at power level 10, equivalent to starting gear, and is only made powerful by infusing it with powerful gear earned through gameplay. This consumes the item used for infusion, and leaves you with a cosmetic that is identical in terms of power to the item you already earned.

Fourth, Bright Engrams are available as a level up reward once you reach the level cap. This is similar to the system currently in place in Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm, where you earn XP for any in game activity, and after a given amount of XP, a loot box is awarded.

If you want to throw shade on Destiny 2, there is plenty of fodder - lack of unique content at level cap, PvP balance issues, over-prevalance of certain weapons, etc. This is not a legit reason to do so.

Edit: And after reading through the thread in its entirety, it is exactly as I suspected. OP has clearly never played Destiny 1 or 2, nor have the vast majority of posters in the thread. Props to the 3 other people who bothered to actually get the facts straight before jumping on the "OMFG P2W ACTIVISION IS EEEEEEVIL!!!" train.

[veehro]

As a consumer of a certain product you are made aware that there will be up-sales. As I said, it is ones own choice.
See my car metaphor. There are up-sales in the thousands of dollars range.
A different exhaust system. Different seats. A more powerful engine. I can transform the whole thing into a race car if I want to.
If I transfer this over to the topic... People here bitching why they can transform their car to a racer and why the manufacturer charges them for it.

Yet this is not the case is it? if i were to buy a car that would use car batery power in order to monitor my driving skills on an on-board computer and then sell that information to a 3rd party or use me as an unpaid promotion for their company in various ways then most people would have an issue with that if it was not done above board and with the costumer consent

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Activision, now officially on the hall of shame right next to Warner and EA.

Also known as the Trinity of Greed.

[Ripster42]

I really don't get the outrage. It's basically using top players as a way to showcase the value of their product, and ensuring the customer feels the value in that purchase.

Would it potentially incentivize more purchases? Sure. So what? People are buying more stuff they want to have, and enjoying what they buy. That's not a "bad thing". Nothing in there suggested they were going to be creating unbalanced matches, which is the only way I'd see this as being "bad", since that would create lower win rates for non-paying customers on purpose.

Getting matched to similar elo players is what most people would prefer, because being matched with people who have a similar skill level/effectiveness is what most people consider fair. When you deviate from that, the games become less fun to play.

A junior/marquee set up also basically allows you to pay to play against newer/less skilled players (assuming they still try to balance the teams' elos). That's exactly what they're talking about:

For instance, the microtransaction engine may match a more expert/marquee player with a junior player to encourage the junior player to make game-related purchases of items possessed/used by the marquee player.