Artificial Difficulty in Legion

[Deleted]

Definitely explains the max camera distance being cut down.

I’ve felt it too on quite a few bosses.

so much this. I am glad more people have realized this with time

[D3athsting]

Fps and shitty camera while standing near fountain are the real challenges at M aluriel, fuck that shitty zone

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Tomb is a problem but none of those five man bosses are. Leading off with hrymdall is degrading your case quite heavily. You should have no problem identifying the location because of camera angles.

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Fps and shitty camera while standing near fountain are the real challenges at M aluriel, fuck that shitty zone

Fps is your computer's problem and you do not fight that boss by the fountain. That's optional.

[FrostyK]

WoW didn't have these issues before. I don't remember a single raid tier where I had to fight the camera or poor spell color design.

Exactly. However I did encounter some frustration in WoD on mythic grim rail. That part on the train where every thing is so clustered and you had to avoid aoe. The camera angle tend to screw up there. However in the case of grimrail, I would think that was unintentional and more is of an exception. In Legion, it seems intentional.

[serra2]

Aside from the camera woes, I really hope Blizzard can work on cleaning up visual mechanics. We are reaching the point of complexity where the relatively simple visuals for attacks are starting to become a massive problem. When bosses start having multiple "put swirly circle on ground" attacks, it would be nice to have a quick visual thing showing if this is supposed to be soaked or split or avoided.

That was one thing I liked about FF14 and Wildstar, just a glance at an attacks telegraph told you the area of attack, the cast/trigger time, and how to deal with said mechanic.

[D3athsting]

That was one thing I liked about FF14 and Wildstar, just a glance at an attacks telegraph told you the area of attack, the cast/trigger time, and how to deal with said mechanic.

There was avr boss-mod in wow during icc era but blizz banned it later

[Swalload]

True, but it shouldn't be difficult to allow a non-forced zoom and an xray like feature because sometimes people don't want to have to put the camera to the side just to see something in their vicinity due to a forced adjustment because environment got in the way.
Players, bosses, actual 'actor' things can block the camera, but environment is annoying, though minor.

This typically doesn't bother me, but like, when your back is to a wall (like sisters, as an example), you have to swing a bit to the side to get a view, else it goes first person, so it's a minor .3 second inconvenience for me, but could save others from larger frustration.

Never had any serious problems with this. Specially with sisters, you don't need to watch her and it's easier to dodge shit while having your camera all the way up facing down. Also range classes don't need to be at a distance, everything works while being up close as well.

[FrostyK]

Aside from the camera woes, I really hope Blizzard can work on cleaning up visual mechanics. We are reaching the point of complexity where the relatively simple visuals for attacks are starting to become a massive problem. When bosses start having multiple "put swirly circle on ground" attacks, it would be nice to have a quick visual thing showing if this is supposed to be soaked or split or avoided.

That was one thing I liked about FF14 and Wildstar, just a glance at an attacks telegraph told you the area of attack, the cast/trigger time, and how to deal with said mechanic.

This is another issue. Imagine from a new player's perspective at his first attempt at raid. Boss put swirly thing on the ground and yell Armageddon. Anyone's logical responsive is to get the hell away from there. This seems like very minor issue and people should know before even attempting the fight... but.... it seems that Blizzard is intentionally relying on misdirection from the lowest level of dungeons to the highest level to induce some form of challenge.

[D3athsting]

@Op

Another trolling mechanic is the armageddon-like mechanic at L'Ura in SotT, very hard to see that black void bolt in that dark room with so many adds and shit on the ground...

[FrostyK]

There was avr boss-mod in wow during icc era but blizz banned it later

Sindragosa fight. Most people don't get the issue. Ignorant people jus go "if you need the addon to kill her, your a nub, its ezpz stuff, git gud"

The deeper issue is, if Blizz adopt FF14 style, they would have to seek more creative ways to come up with raid design and challenges. Compare that to banning the ads, banning of the ads is the easier choice. They ban or remove (i.e. Flying) anything that requires them to be creative.

[Kalphr]

Trilliax beam is all about the camera. The whole mechanic is fighting the camera. I kind of like this challenge in a raid mechanics, as long is it's not overused.

Basically the whole Krosus fight is manipulating the camera to see mechanics and I think that's a really fun fight.

[shaunika123]

there's only so many things blizzard can design that you can do in tunnel fps vision.

spacial awareness, improvisation, and foresight are all types of skills, why would it be artificial for you to have to use them?

[KaPe]

There's definitely been times when I've missed old camera distance - as well as cursed at the sudden zoom after I ran too close to a wall. It's amazingly annoying and can turn seemingly trivial mechanics into something far more dangerous, simply because you can barely see what's happening. I've had some people suggest to set the camera to look directly down - which in turn makes it much harder to use long range ground targeted spells... assuming they don't end up on the ceiling or some annoying shit I can barely see.

[Sageless]

Am fighting with the camera on more occasions than I would like.

In Tomb (mythic) the following spring to mind:
- Goroth pillars if they spawn behind you
- Sisters when positioned on the outside has several areas where your sight zooms in due to banners / pillars
- Tornado's on Avatar that are on the other side of Avatar and he blocks your view to them + of course the ones coming from behind meaning you are spinning the camera all the time

Also the fact that visuals and spell effects are not the same. This goes both for the area they take in (getting clipped while outside the visual) and the timing (taking damage when you are already out of it when it spawned, but the visual was delayed to the actual spell).

All these things you can work around after you know they can occur (moving furhter and pre-emptive moving), but still annoying.

Of course the overlap of several spells with the same colour / texture are most frustrating. Best example would be healing ground effects on maiden (paladin hammer, priest AoE heal) that are yellow and sparkly that obfuscate the yellow orb.


Some other artificial difficulty are clutter and level height differences. Making blinks or AoE's impossible to place because there is a rock in between always feels bad.

[Gaidax]

I think you guys need to take a chill pill and learn to play or quit. All of the mechanics you talked about are easy as fuck, or fun. This is the type of thing that is needed more in wow, mechanics that you have to look at the boss and the surrounding area to beat. Not just look at your hotbars and dbm timers.

Even maiden, you guys are bullshit, its easy as fuck to distinguish which orbs are green and which yellow. Dragons on Hymdall are a retard check. You can't imagine how many players die on them every day, even on easy mythic+ keys. Shows just how bad most of the playerbase is. I could go on but there is no point.

I know I sound toxic, but fuck, you guys just try so fucking hard every day to blame blizz for something. They are just trying to create new mechanics, don't give them so much bullshit. Ye sure, maiden orbs are same as thaddius, but most of the legion dungeons have some nice and fresh mechanics here and there.

This pretty much.

Sounds like a bunch of shitters trying too hard to find excuse for their lack of awareness and terribad positioning.

I, for example, fuck up plenty in raids, but it never ever was because "baed camera artifishul difficulty, wtf Blizz?" - it is almost always purely my own fuckup because I failed one way or another to pay attention or simply went overconfident and did not live up to my own expectations.

Seems quite a lot of people think they are infallible and they fail because floor was not flat enough or bullshit like that.

[Zka]

Yeah I hate these. Include any and all encounters including flight in the game. Alakir and stuff like that. It feels impossible to properly assess your position during flight (or levitation) in this game. It's soooo frustrating.
Boss and player effects went overboard long ago, melee is just a fucking mess on many bosses, you just don't know wtf is going on. Bad design.

[Deleted]

WoW didn't have these issues before. I don't remember a single raid tier where I had to fight the camera or poor spell color design.

As a tank: It was this way since vanilla wow. You had/have to rotate your view around the boss.

Trilliax beam is all about the camera. The whole mechanic is fighting the camera. I kind of like this challenge in a raid mechanics, as long is it's not overused.

The Trillax Beam? You mean the C´Thun Beam copy already used by the Lurker Below in SSC? This is nothing new and nothing hard. Yes, it changes direction now, but thats not hard to see

The most of the fights discussed in this topic aren´t DPS/HPS checks. So if you can´t multitask just stop everything and survive. Even in High Mythic Keys stopping DPS for 5 seconds won´t make or brake the key. Try Heymdall as a tank, back against or near a pillar. No sight, still easy to dodge the drakes.

[Kendevis]

I totally agree with this thread.
I myself often thought exactly the same. The difficulty is not the fight itself, but seeing it correctly.
As melee, with always huge bosses, I hardly understand what direction it's facing!

[Girrag]

Videogames are "artificial difficulty" by design. And WoW is aracade MMO with some RPG elements, not pure MMORPG as you expected for a pretty long time.

[Fabinas]

But any difficulty is artificial o_O

What's the point of living if we gonna die eventually?

See i can spout generalities as well with absolutely no contribution to the SPECIFIC topic at hand. Which is the WAY the difficulty is made by devious threat presentation.

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No I am not waiting for the right thread to say to ppl to git gud, I am just looking for some good threads, but all mmo champion is about lately is bashing blizzard for the most stupid reasons.

Yes you are. Git gud at fanboying.

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WoW didn't have these issues before. I don't remember a single raid tier where I had to fight the camera or poor spell color design.

Exactly. Summing up the OP in a simple and concise way. Anything in Legion is designed to gate you, imped you, delay you, obstruct you, in order to spend more MAUs, to design and produce less quality and quantity content in less time. Sad to see this has affected raiding design as well, which was mostly innovative and higher quality than world content design.

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Exactly. However I did encounter some frustration in WoD on mythic grim rail. That part on the train where every thing is so clustered and you had to avoid aoe. The camera angle tend to screw up there. However in the case of grimrail, I would think that was unintentional and more is of an exception. In Legion, it seems intentional.

So true. It was difficult to avoid AoE spells, but also to target AoE spells as well with the ground reticle.

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There was avr boss-mod in wow during icc era but blizz banned it later

AVR also gave you the positions raid members should move into, essentially playing the game for you, apart from pressing the buttons. It completely removed the startegy planning from the raid and the thought process of reacting to or anticipating a mechanic by better placement of your toon. not the same, imho.

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Sindragosa fight. Most people don't get the issue. Ignorant people jus go "if you need the addon to kill her, your a nub, its ezpz stuff, git gud"

The deeper issue is, if Blizz adopt FF14 style, they would have to seek more creative ways to come up with raid design and challenges. Compare that to banning the ads, banning of the ads is the easier choice. They ban or remove (i.e. Flying) anything that requires them to be creative.

As shown on my comment above i disagree ONLy with your opinion about the AVR mod. It actually removed half of the thought and effort a player had to put on a raid fight, allowing him to just move , following the addon directions, and press his buttons to dps/tank/heal.

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This pretty much.

Sounds like a bunch of shitters trying too hard to find excuse for their lack of awareness and terribad positioning.

I, for example, fuck up plenty in raids, but it never ever was because "baed camera artifishul difficulty, wtf Blizz?" - it is almost always purely my own fuckup because I failed one way or another to pay attention or simply went overconfident and did not live up to my own expectations.

Seems quite a lot of people think they are infallible and they fail because floor was not flat enough or bullshit like that.

Noone cares about your elitistic POV on stuff anyway.

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Trilliax beam is all about the camera. The whole mechanic is fighting the camera. I kind of like this challenge in a raid mechanics, as long is it's not overused.

Basically the whole Krosus fight is manipulating the camera to see mechanics and I think that's a really fun fight.

Trilliax isn't a problem, unless you're using a strategy that impedes you to have view to the center of room. I think your example does not qualify as the OP's examples are.

On Krosus, the only time you had to turn your camera was at the elemental spawns on the back. Then you had to remember which side the beam was gonna hit. Or not, if you moved after the beam hit to the correct side.