Apple diversity head Denise Young Smith apologizes for controversial choice of words

[Dougie Cooper]

But, would you say a white person from Russia has the same life experience as a white person from Australia? Or a white person from South Africa has the same life experiences as someone from Czechoslovakia? I will even pivot this a bit, would an "Asian" person from China have the same life experiences as an "Asian" person from South Korea? I am actually generally interested in your opinion on this, I do agree that having people of different skin colors on a team absolutely makes a difference, but to say "all white people have the same life experiences" is a little bit of an abstract thing to say. Say, a black person from Niger, would more than likely have a completely different life experience than a black person from, lets say, Atlanta.

I don't recall ever saying they have the same live experiences, and I'm not discounting that fact at all. I'm not saying they're not diverse in some way, but you're still not going to get the same experience by having only straight white men as you would if you also included some POCs, some LGBT+ individuals, etc.

This also plays into the debate of Nature vs Nurture, does your physical "race" define who you are, or does you upbringing define who you are. It really shocks me, honestly, that a lot of people in the SJW crowd actually make a lot of the same claims as alt-right race realists, i am absolutely in the classic liberal ideology of nurture being the defining aspect of who someone is, i find this new trend of race realism very disturbing.

I'm not quite sure how to address this, honestly. I've never met any others you would consider to be SJWs who think just being a different race encompasses someone's whole identity.

[Toogoodman]

No one is saying people of different races, etc. have inherently (inborn) different psychologies. Their experiences as they grow up are different for many reasons and that is what creates the diversity of perspective in people. 12 white men will not have as diverse a set of perspectives as a group of 12 that contains people of different races, women, and LGBT. You could maybe have a few white men from different countries or economic backgrounds, but all 12 would be less diverse than any mixture.

Now when people finally forget about race and everyone in one country has the same culture and lives the same way, then you can start to talk about a racially homogeneous group having as much diversity of thought as a mixed group - because there would not be more diversity by adding more people with the same cultural experiences. You would still, however, need women and others because men and women will never have the same life experiences.

So are telling me, a white male growing up in the poorest neighborhood in Detroit is going to be extremely similar to a white male growing up in the Hampton's? Or, that a black male growing up in Shelby Mississippi will be extremely similar to a black male growing up San Francisco?

[Hellrime]

No one is saying people of different races, etc. have inherently (inborn) different psychologies. Their experiences as they grow up are different for many reasons and that is what creates the diversity of perspective in people. 12 white men will not have as diverse a set of perspectives as a group of 12 that contains people of different races, women, and LGBT. You could maybe have a few white men from different countries or economic backgrounds, but all 12 would be less diverse than any mixture.

Now when people finally forget about race and everyone in one country has the same culture and lives the same way, then you can start to talk about a racially homogeneous group having as much diversity of thought as a mixed group - because there would not be more diversity by adding more people with the same cultural experiences. You would still, however, need women and others because men and women will never have the same life experiences.

So a blue eyed, blonde, white male who grew up under the poverty line (shocking I know, but it sure as hell happens) will think exactly like the one that grew up with a trust fund? This is really where the argument breaks down, more goes into developing personality, thought, etc... than just someone's skin tone and gender. If anything socio-economic factors play a much larger role.

It is honestly why I laughed so hard when I saw Beyonce making the fist at the Super Bowl, yea she has absolutely NO FREAKING IDEA what it is like to deal with the brunt of what African Americans do on a daily basis.

[Underverse]

No one is saying people of different races, etc. have inherently (inborn) different psychologies. Their experiences as they grow up are different for many reasons and that is what creates the diversity of perspective in people. 12 white men will not have as diverse a set of perspectives as a group of 12 that contains people of different races, women, and LGBT. You could maybe have a few white men from different countries or economic backgrounds, but all 12 would be less diverse than any mixture.

Now when people finally forget about race and everyone in one country has the same culture and lives the same way, then you can start to talk about a racially homogeneous group having as much diversity of thought as a mixed group - because there would not be more diversity by adding more people with the same cultural experiences. You would still, however, need women and others because men and women will never have the same life experiences.

Everyone has different experiences. The fact that any one group of people might share an experience here or there does not overcome the diversity of experiences between individuals within a group. You're doing two things here: one, you're assuming that people of a particular group share particular experiences across the entire group, and two, you're giving these experiences much more weight than other experiences when it comes to understanding diversity of ideas. These assertions need to be justified.

But let's make the assumption that race/sex/sexuality-specific perspectives exist. Why would you assume that these very slightly different perspectives would change the ability to do one's job or the access to ideas that individuals have? How does this make Apple engineers more effective workers?

[Toogoodman]

I don't recall ever saying they have the same live experiences, and I'm not discounting that fact at all. I'm not saying they're not diverse in some way, but you're still not going to get the same experience by having only straight white men as you would if you also included some POCs, some LGBT+ individuals, etc.

I'm not quite sure how to address this, honestly. I've never met any others you would consider to be SJWs who think just being a different race encompasses someone's whole identity.

You're literally saying someone who is white, is going to have the same up bringing as any other white person, which is just false. I am not too sure anyone here is saying "only white people working here", but to set a quota, and only hiring someone because they're black, because their life must be so different, is saying that they are only different because they're black. I work with several black people, who other black people say "are acting too white", which is ludicrous.

Take myself for example, grew up in a household with a lesbian sister, my niece is a lesbian, and i am in the camp of not giving a fuck if you're gay. To say that, because i am white, i must be similar too a white person who grew up in a super christian household, preaching gays are sinners, because i am white, is ridiculous, because that's what this eludes to.

[Underverse]

I don't recall ever saying they have the same live experiences, and I'm not discounting that fact at all. I'm not saying they're not diverse in some way, but you're still not going to get the same experience by having only straight white men as you would if you also included some POCs, some LGBT+ individuals, etc.

The problem is that if people look at group status (race, sexuality, sex) when making hiring decisions, you're ignoring all of the other experiences that make people unique and you end up losing a lot more value than you gain. If you just look for diversity of thought in your hiring process, and ignore race/sex/sexuality completely, then you will maximize diversity value, and you'll also probably end up hiring some straight people, some gay people, some white people, some black people, etc (though it might not perfectly reflect the general population, depending on about a thousand confounding factors).

[Dougie Cooper]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. If you make the argument that X minority has a fundamentally different thought process from other groups, you are:

>Making a racist generalization
>Opening the door to other racist generalizations that you might not like as much

Your way of thinking is built on the same tenets as that of racists.

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying people from different backgrounds have different experiences in life, and the experiences of an LGBT person are almost never going to be the same as a straight cisgender person, as an example. I'm not saying that there's a fundamentally different thought process. I'm not sure where you see that I said that, but I've continuously said "experiences."

The problem is that if people look at group status (race, sexuality, sex) when making hiring decisions, you're ignoring all of the other experiences that make people unique and you end up losing a lot more value than you gain. If you just look for diversity of thought in your hiring process, and ignore race/sex/sexuality completely, then you will maximize diversity value, and you'll also probably end up hiring some straight people, some gay people, some white people, some black people, etc (though it might not perfectly reflect the general population, depending on about a thousand confounding factors).

The problem is that that doesn't happen. People get their resumes rejected for having black-sounding names all the time. There are still places that will fire people for being gay or trans. Yes, in an ideal world, we wouldn't have to look at those things at all.

I don't understand why you keep saying "diversity of thought" as if there isn't diversity of thought in hiring marginalized people as well.

[Underverse]

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying people from different backgrounds have different experiences in life, and the experiences of an LGBT person are almost never going to be the same as a straight cisgender person, as an example. I'm not saying that there's a fundamentally different thought process. I'm not sure where you see that I said that, but I've continuously said "experiences."

Okay, but again, you have to consider these small differences in the context of much larger differences between individuals. See my other posts.

[Super Kami Dende]

"Hey guys, I was going to hire that Korean Guy, but realised we have a few Japanese guys already. I mean, they are all just Asian anyway right?"

Basically if you find this sentence racist, then lumping all white people together as one group is equally as racist.

[Dougie Cooper]

You're literally saying someone who is white, is going to have the same up bringing as any other white person, which is just false. I am not too sure anyone here is saying "only white people working here", but to set a quota, and only hiring someone because they're black, because their life must be so different, is saying that they are only different because they're black. I work with several black people, who other black people say "are acting too white", which is ludicrous.

Take myself for example, grew up in a household with a lesbian sister, my niece is a lesbian, and i am in the camp of not giving a fuck if you're gay. To say that, because i am white, i must be similar too a white person who grew up in a super christian household, preaching gays are sinners, because i am white, is ridiculous, because that's what this eludes to.

That is literally not what I said but okay.

[Hellrime]

Specific skills or ideas? You have poor comprensión because that’s not what I am saying. I am saying life experiences is what makes diversity count and all white men typically have more similar an upbringing than a Woman who moved here from Taiwan.

That statement couldn't be any less absurd, that would suggest that all American's in general have a similar experience. The only way what you suggest would be possible is if class were locked in based solely on race/gender, it isn't.

"You're White, Male, and Heterosexual, here is a million dollars and a college education", people are aware that doesn't ACTUALLY happen, right?

[Super Kami Dende]

That statement couldn't be any less absurd, that would suggest that all American's in general have a similar experience. The only way what you suggest would be possible is if class were locked in based solely on race/gender, it isn't.

Don't mind him, he's just one of those people that hides his Racism behind perceived "political correctness"

[Ozzyorcborne]

Where can I go to get a made up job title like VP of "Diversity and Inclusion"? These titles sure are crawling out of the woodwork.....

[I Push Buttons]

I don't see what's bad about what she said?

White people = the devil.

Can't say anything not hateful about them or you're a racist Nazi sympathizer.

That is literally what this controversy is. She said white people are also diverse and that offended people.

[Polyxo]

It's not so much bad as much as it is just factually wrong. If by diversity, you're looking to get more 'coverage' of certain life experience, then having 12 people of all the same basic demographics is not going to get you diversity.

[Hellrime]

Don't mind him, he's just one of those people that hides his Racism behind perceived "political correctness"

I took notice, I mean 10 white, blue eyed, blonde males might be German, Norwegian, British, Scottish, Irish, etc... Hell my grandmother was more than half Native American and had blue eyes and blonde hair. There was a Hispanic girl I dated that had blue eyes and blonde hair. I just think the whole thing is silly, and African-American lady made the statement, receiving backlash from the SJWs over it is quite possibly the most bizarre scenario I could ever imagine in the diversity argument. SHE recognizes that diversity is in thought, yet a bunch of middle-class, white-shaming, hippy, overly PC nutbars don't? LoL

[Wikiy]

Apple’s overall numbers – 9% black, 12% Hispanic, 19% Asian and 56% white, are still poor.

What in the holy fuck? Isn't more than 3/4 of America white? Because if it is, Apple is more diverse than it even should be.

I mean, I find this whole campaign about diversity and forcing companies to be diverse absolutely fucking crazy. I think diversity is good, but this has been pushed to really crazy extremes (such as the idea that Apple even has a department whose job is to make sure Apple is "diverse enough").

I say all of this as a gay liberal/leftist, by the way. But yeah, I suppose it's the white and male part of me that's preventing me from seeing any of this as rational instead of batshit crazy.

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She said white people are also diverse and that offended people.

Nutjobs. 10char

[Super Kami Dende]

It's not so much bad as much as it is just factually wrong. If by diversity, you're looking to get more 'coverage' of certain life experience, then having 12 people of all the same basic demographics is not going to get you diversity.

Hey look, another racist. If all White people are the same demographic, wouldn't it make sense for them to only hire 1 Black, 1 Asian, 1 Native American, 1 homosexual. I mean anymore would just be copies of the same demographic right?

[Infracted]

[Deleted]

Saying blue-eyed blonde men are different because they are individuals requires you to apologize ? Not sure I want to be on this planet anymore.

[Polyxo]

What in the holy fuck? Isn't more than 3/4 of America white? Because if it is, Apple is more diverse than it even should be.

I mean, I find this whole campaign about diversity and forcing companies to be diverse absolutely fucking crazy. I think diversity is good, but this has been pushed to really crazy extremes (such as the idea that Apple even has a department whose job is to make sure Apple is "diverse enough").

I say all of this as a gay liberal/leftist, by the way. But yeah, I suppose it's the white and male part of me that's preventing me from seeing any of this as rational instead of batshit crazy.

- - - Updated - - -



Nutjobs. 10char

I mean, Asian's being 20% is what's really messing things up. If you look at census data, non-hispanic white people are about 60% of the population, probably. That's the best data I can find.