Templates Gone: Anyone Else Wanna See This?

[FAILoZOFF]

Hey, turn out... I disagree with all of you!

[Caolela]

Customization and choices? You mean, choosing the right trinkets, neck and rings? Aren't the new honor talents also choices that affect playstyle?

Any customization and choices we need could very well be introduced throught the Honor Talent system. Like I said in a previous post here, they could introduce one or two rows that are all about adjusting your template. Maybe one row allows you to choose a bonus in haste + move speed, critical + leech or versatility + evasion; Another row could have a bunch +stat /-stat choices. That would be choice, without fucking up the template system or power balance.



Then go do World PvP, where there's everything a MMORPG has. As long as you queuing for an instance whose purpose is to gather two teams for a match, it's not just a MMORPG anymore.



"You geared up in a day to a few days and done". That's pretty much a lie. There were Conquest limits per week. Unless you were so far behind that the catch-up mechanics (that were introduced in MoP only) would allow you to gear up in a week, you'd spend a long time before you were able to even the field. Not to mention that, since you are undergeared, you'll have to lose a ton of games before you have enough "honor from losses" to buy a few pieces.

PvP balance before Legion was simple: ranked was even because everyone there was geared up as best as possible, but casual PvP was a nightmare for casuals because the ranked ones would go there to ROFLstomp noobs. If not for that, why were there fully geared people without any need for Honor queuing for random BGs?



What a stupid comparison. Why do you think we have LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic?
And a PvE boss is, well, a computer. In PvP, it's two players. You have two people trying to have fun.



I don't think it's up to you to define what belongs in WoW.

I wasn't the one who "defined what belongs in WoW". It is a MMORPG and that's the genre it is. Blizz has turned it into a quasi-MOBA.

Apparently you didn't get my meaning. I said if there was a handicap to standard raids (LFR, N, H, M), meaning being gimped like new PvP dings are that if an artificial system was put in to hide it the dragonslayers would have a fit.

No, it's very much, not "pretty much" true that gearing in WoD was not as long as in Legion, because in Legion you have never ending RNG and Conc pts. to grind. Any number of people here know that except the fanboys of a rigged system.

Honor talents (combined with RNG and templates) do not replace reforging or the ability to choose the gear you want at a vendor. THAT'S what a MMO is supposed to be like, not everyone is a clone of the same class/spec and keep chasing ilvl/Conc.

[Deleted]

I made a post about this right after this xpack launched.

As a really short tldr;

There was no need for templates. Pvp gear was extremely easy and fast to obtain in Wod and everyone and their mothers was running around with 740ilevel gear in pvp, instanced or not. The current way templates work actually far worse inequality in pvp than the Wod gearing system did, thanks to artifacts. Not to mention that first time since TBC you get better pvp gear from pve, which is just wrong in my opinion.

Pvp activity is low since it offers next to no rewards whatsoever. Even pvp's need their gear rewards, not just pve'rs. I'm sure someone is going to respond once again about how you just pvp for fun, but remember that while that may be the case for you, it's not for most people.

Addentum: also I wish people stop whinining about pruning. Pruning was needed for many specs and you are still using more buttons now than you did in Wotlk for example.

[Deleted]

I made a post about this right after this xpack launched.

As a really short tldr;

There was no need for templates. Pvp gear was extremely easy and fast to obtain in Wod and everyone and their mothers was running around with 740ilevel gear in pvp, instanced or not. The current way templates work actually far worse inequality in pvp than the Wod gearing system did, thanks to artifacts. Not to mention that first time since TBC you get better pvp gear from pve, which is just wrong in my opinion.

Pvp activity is low since it offers next to no rewards whatsoever. Even pvp's need their gear rewards, not just pve'rs. I'm sure someone is going to respond once again about how you just pvp for fun, but remember that while that may be the case for you, it's not for most people.

Addentum: also I wish people stop whinining about pruning. Pruning was needed for many specs and you are still using more buttons now than you did in Wotlk for example.

100% agree.
I would also keep disabled pve trinkets (procs/on use)/PvE set bonusses/enchants and gems in instanced PvP as it is now.

[DeicideUH]

I made a post about this right after this xpack launched.

As a really short tldr;

There was no need for templates. Pvp gear was extremely easy and fast to obtain in Wod and everyone and their mothers was running around with 740ilevel gear in pvp, instanced or not. The current way templates work actually far worse inequality in pvp than the Wod gearing system did, thanks to artifacts. Not to mention that first time since TBC you get better pvp gear from pve, which is just wrong in my opinion.

Pvp activity is low since it offers next to no rewards whatsoever. Even pvp's need their gear rewards, not just pve'rs. I'm sure someone is going to respond once again about how you just pvp for fun, but remember that while that may be the case for you, it's not for most people.

Addentum: also I wish people stop whinining about pruning. Pruning was needed for many specs and you are still using more buttons now than you did in Wotlk for example.

To me, all you are saying is that the problem are Artifacts and lack of rewards, not the templates themselves.
This is what bothers me: you are asking for removal of something that is not broken, instead of asking/suggesting solutions for the real problems.

[Achilles55]

YES. I think Templates single handedly killed PvP. I'd love to see them removed and have gear and player progression return to PvP

[Flaks]

Despite not liking it, templates are actually healthy for gameplay and balance. Although its not as fun and overpowering, it creates a more level field by reducing outliers.

edit: the same reason it removes outliers is the very reason its not fun

Fuck balance. The game was a lot more fun when things were imbalanced even if it wasn't my own class at that time. It is in no way better for gameplay at all as it strips classes of abilities for no real reason.

[Hisholyness]

Fuck balance. The game was a lot more fun when things were imbalanced even if it wasn't my own class at that time. It is in no way better for gameplay at all as it strips classes of abilities for no real reason.

if you have fun from being overpowered, then someone is not having fun from getting destroyed.

your profile picture is hilarious (made me lol)

[Deleted]

To me, all you are saying is that the problem are Artifacts and lack of rewards, not the templates themselves.
This is what bothers me: you are asking for removal of something that is not broken, instead of asking/suggesting solutions for the real problems.

I guess I didn't convey the message well enough, but the way gearing worked and gear worked in Wod was the best.

[Deleted]

To me, all you are saying is that the problem are Artifacts and lack of rewards, not the templates themselves.
This is what bothers me: you are asking for removal of something that is not broken, instead of asking/suggesting solutions for the real problems.

Templates are not bad at all for balance, but it is very very poorly communicated and non-transparent.

Just ask some casual pvp guy how it works. Many ppl still dont know if gems, enchants, trinkets set bonuses, stats, traits, crucible traits, weapon power level etc. works in instanced pvp. They are confused by world PvP and they think how pvp is bad and dont want to participate in it cause of wrong impression from it.
Like someone 1 shot you, immortal tanks, and they dont want to participate in that BS.
Also Pve gear better for PvP is shit mate, please agree at least here.. PvP gear in PvE was BS either, so lets make PvE gear good for PvE and vice versa, and WoD showed us the way, it wasn't ideal but direction was ok.

In before this was all so easy and not confusing.
And what other guys said, PvP templates can be somehow reached by pvp gear if all players are using it, be it for increased power in pvp situations (and not just instanced could help world pvp), pvp set bonusses, disabled pve stuff in pvp etc.
So it is just templates, reeached via gear, but more transparent and yet more rewarding (without RNG drop shit ofc.) as gear matters.

[Craaazyyy]

kind of yes, kind of no
back in the days we have had far less, and easier to use (mechanically) basic rotations/priorities to deal damage/healing, but also had more actually "fun" stuff going on, like cc and general utility
That's why a lot people playing PvP complained about PvE race... in PvP, because when cc and utility stopped having such an emphasis, ability to deal raw damage, healing became far more important and well... harder.

i dunno what game you're playing, but dealing damage now is easier than ever b4.. as pretty much every class

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if you have fun from being overpowered, then someone is not having fun from getting destroyed.

your profile picture is hilarious (made me lol)

so you'd rather play a gutted, boring, plain but balanced game? cool

also back in the days when the game actually took skill you could play around all imbalances(to a degree ofc) and outplay with skill even if your class/comp is weaker.. ofc we all hated when balance was fucked, but i'd rather lose to ATC than lose to stupid shit ppl play these days.. atleast i knew that ATC took skill to play and had to farm BIS pve gear aswell for it to work(ATC is one of the examples, oh btw ATC = African Turtle Cleave, google it)

[gushDH]

Just put flat templates at rated pvp. Casual pvp should be just casual, do whatever, it was awesome to gear up and feel the difference. Now it's like you play a moba.

[Craaazyyy]

Just put flat templates at rated pvp. Casual pvp should be just casual, do whatever, it was awesome to gear up and feel the difference. Now it's like you play a moba.

well i dunno what blizzard were smoking.. but MMO without customization is a joke

[ItachiZaku]

I always enjoyed grinding out PVP gear so that I would be more unkillable in instanced PVP. Tons of resilience, being that asshole resto druid that you couldn't kill no matter what. I do some brawls now, not so much on healers anymore unless I can get into a large scale battle.

[Hisholyness]

i dunno what game you're playing, but dealing damage now is easier than ever b4.. as pretty much every class

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so you'd rather play a gutted, boring, plain but balanced game? cool

also back in the days when the game actually took skill you could play around all imbalances(to a degree ofc) and outplay with skill even if your class/comp is weaker.. ofc we all hated when balance was fucked, but i'd rather lose to ATC than lose to stupid shit ppl play these days.. atleast i knew that ATC took skill to play and had to farm BIS pve gear aswell for it to work(ATC is one of the examples, oh btw ATC = African Turtle Cleave, google it)

Did you ever play a warrior in TBC against a frost mage? I did. You had a 50% chance to win if you timed and outsmarted ice barrier, blink, frost nova, ice barrier frost nova, frost bolt, POM poly if they took it, ice elemental freeze, and ice block.

We had to do that all with Charge, intervene, spell reflect, and intimidating shout.

It was IMBALANCED because the cards were stacked against you. It was not fun. So you think imbalances such as that should exist?

[Craaazyyy]

Did you ever play a warrior in TBC against a frost mage? I did. You had a 50% chance to win if you timed and outsmarted ice barrier, blink, frost nova, ice barrier frost nova, frost bolt, POM poly if they took it, ice elemental freeze, and ice block.

We had to do that all with Charge, intervene, spell reflect, and intimidating shout.

It was IMBALANCED because the cards were stacked against you. It was not fun. So you think imbalances such as that should exist?

i dont give a shit about vanilla tho.. nor i give a fuck about balance in 1v1s

[quellious]

People are delusional with their accusation that template haters somehow love stomping under-geared players. 100% fabricated lie said in order to make us look bad.

Templates were created by elitists for elitists. They remove the most important aspect of an RPG: character progression. For this reason and this reason only they have to go.

You say it is a lie that template haters love stomping under-geared players in the same breath that you admit they remove progression: the thing that makes stomping under-geared players possible.

[Mafic]

You say it is a lie that template haters love stomping under-geared players in the same breath that you admit they remove progression: the thing that makes stomping under-geared players possible.

I still stomp people in BGs, because they are undergeared and they don't have Concordance rank 10+.

Legion has created the illusion that gear doesn't matter and that it is "fair".

Here is how Legion PVP system angers two sides of the player base, because Blizz straddles the fence.

1. Players that want PVP to be about skill. Blizz allows Concordance to work in Legion PVP, there is no longer a gear cap in Legion PVP instances. Basically, PVE geared players can walk into PVP and stomp noobs still. This is also known as vanilla PVP and why it was done away with a more fair PVP system in Burning Crusade where the best in slot PVP gear often came from doing PVP and NOT PVE.

2. Players that want gear to matter in PVP are players that like doing PVP to earn their gear. The gear they earn in PVP in Legion is often inferior (eg versatility). PVP artifact power gains are slower, and less in terms of AP/hour than doing PVE.

My position has been simple. I am not against WoW PVP being about player skill but you have to give back player choice (eg secondary stat choice). Also, you can't allow PVE gear to be best in slot for PVP and also easier to obtain than PVP. It is breaking PVP system completely.

Also, if gear matters more in PVP again with templates being removied then PVP gear should be obtainable by all players via PVP as it was the case for three straight expansions before the turd we call Legion.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Did you ever play a warrior in TBC against a frost mage? I did. You had a 50% chance to win if you timed and outsmarted ice barrier, blink, frost nova, ice barrier frost nova, frost bolt, POM poly if they took it, ice elemental freeze, and ice block.

We had to do that all with Charge, intervene, spell reflect, and intimidating shout.

It was IMBALANCED because the cards were stacked against you. It was not fun. So you think imbalances such as that should exist?

no frost mage had pom poly in tbc, but anyway - yes imbalances such as that should exist, the entire point of tbc pvp was matching classes with different strengths and weaknesses together to form functioning comps, vs legion where class synergies have been pruned out of existance and you create comps based on "what does the most damage this patch"

[FAILoZOFF]

Not to mention that first time since TBC you get better pvp gear from pve, which is just wrong in my opinion.

Heeey, I get that it's a joke and all but others might get confused. Not everyone remembers all the drama about humans being able to equip "one more" batshtcrazy PvE
trinket while still keeping access to Insignia. Won't even mention broken legendary weps (any of them). Even in Cata, "regular" PvE weps n trinkets reign supreme, and set bonuses from Dragonsoul raid being mandatory for some specs to even work in PvP. It was actually MoP that made successful attempt to stop PvE items destroying PvP balance and WoD finishing the job to the fullest.
Where is TBC and where is Cata...

i dunno what game you're playing, but dealing damage now is easier than ever b4.. as pretty much every class

Yeah I am wondering that same. Legion has the most "advanced" combat WoW has ever seen. Then again, Its hard for me to make a point as I am not sure what you mean exactly by saying "ever before", do you regard Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, Cata as more... complicated in regards of dealing damage? They had hardly any interaction between each other move. Even in Wrath "priority" wasn't a thing but rather just "rotation". Not gonna, lie... I preferred actually the "old" system where when I wanted strong heal I just used... a strong heal, instead of current where I have to use some weak spell to buff another spell so that it can became strong and efficient.