When does flirting become sexual harassment?

[vipers]

First rule of flirting: Be attractive.

Second rule of flirting: Don't be unattractive.

money rule them all

many times just wondering why a stunning lady is with that overweight ugly guy and maybe its is that he got lots of money

[D3thray]

Amen to that Jimbo.

On another note I’ve experienced unwanted and unasked for (and persistent) flirting from female colleagues before. Married female colleagues I should say. It’s not that they are unattractive either, far from it. It’s the MARRIED and COLLEAGUE parts I have a problem with. Too much trouble in my experience. Basically the same kind of thing I could expect to be saddled with harassment claims. The difference is I don’t personally feel harassed, nor do I really want to completely upend my work environment which may be the single biggest reason why women themselves sometimes don’t report things.

[EverDash]

But then it's already too late. If they express discomfort, it has already taken place.

Disagree. Only discomfort has taken place. At this point, it's up to recipient to communicate and express that anything further is unwanted. If it persists after that, ONLY THEN does it become "harassment".

(Extreme cases notwithstanding, obviously - i.e. ambush rape, instant genital grabbing, etc. Basically anything illegal is sexual harassment off the bat.)

[Enthusiastic Steward]

But then it's already too late. If they express discomfort, it has already taken place.

That's not harassment. An initial flirt can make someone discomforted, but it doesn't become harassment unless the discomfort is expressed and the other person doesn't take no for an answer and keeps at it.

[Hyral]

Women often don't understand the freaking pressure of starting the first contact I feel, It's hard not to be nervous and come across as a little bit creepy. I understand you might get annoyed as yet another random dude hits on you..but the reactions I get sometimes are REALLY freaking rude.

You got me wondering if this stems from the arguable notion of male privilege that's become popular lately in popular media and colleges. It would be hard to imagine some men have to swallow hard and fight off their fear just to talk to you and endure your judgement when the entire media and professors keep telling you that men hate you and are a privileged class without a care in the world. It destroys empathy.

[Auxora]

I would agree that I think there's a lot of confusion about what people think qualifies as sexual harassment. It should be really cut and dry. The problem is that there are people that have a threshold way too low for what they consider sexual harassment. If a guy says "You have amazing eyes" once, or briefly glances at a woman's chest there are people that consider that harassment. Granted in the workplace the bar is pretty low and should be. But generally I wouldn't consider those to be harassment at all. On the other hand if the person makes the eyes comment repeatedly, asks the person out repeatedly, makes more sexual comments or advances, etc. then it's more what I would consider harassment. It definitely happens and it's a bad thing, it's just that the definition seems to be incredibly wide person to person.

So if someone says they like you and ask you out sometime, that's flirting (especially if you say no and they drop it).

If someone at work says let's get a hotel room after work and ****, your spouse will never find out, you'll regret it if you don't...that's harassment. BTW I had that happen to me from a female boss and I'm a guy, so it's not just a male->female thing.

[Deleted]

Disagree. Only discomfort has taken place. At this point, it's up to recipient to communicate and express that anything further is unwanted. If it persists after that, ONLY THEN does it become "harassment".

(Extreme cases notwithstanding, obviously - i.e. ambush rape, instant genital grabbing, etc. Basically anything illegal is sexual harassment off the bat.)

So if I walk up to a girl and say "hey I wanna take you home, throw you on the bed, rip of your clothes and eat your pussy, then I wanna flip you around and fuck you from behind"... that couldn't be sexual harassment. She would first have to voice her discomfort and tell me to stop, and then when I continue, it's harassment. Good to know. Be right back. Gonna go out and "flirt" a bit.

[Fluffernut]

Attractiveness is completely personal and subjective. So all this, it doesn't count if the guy is attractive! And, it's always harassment if you are an uggo! Is asinine.

It is simple - when the flirting is not encouraged or returned, stop. If the person chooses not to and persists - it is now on a one-way ticket to harassment-town. Why would someone continually try to beat on a door that has been closed? It's not happening - go knock on another door.

[The Penguin]

When the person being flirted with is asked to stop, and they continue, I'd wager it's become sexual harassment.

I mean I can understand a secretary being afraid of saying something to her boss etc., but if it becomes something that is truly egregious, it should be filed and the person flirting informed that the advances aren't welcomed. If they continue afterwards, then harassment. But there also should be a general 'penalty' volcano the state has to use when dealing with reports. This way innocuous flirts aren't on the same tier as someone who follows making cat calls. It also should have something to protect employers so that bad or disruptive employees don't use it as a weapon to remain employed and vice-versa.

Lots of points and we could go on for hours about it I reckon.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

So if I walk up to a girl and say "hey I wanna take you home, throw you on the bed, rip of your clothes and eat your pussy, then I wanna flip you around and fuck you from behind"... that couldn't be sexual harassment. She would first have to voice her discomfort and tell me to stop, and then when I continue, it's harassment. Good to know. Be right back. Gonna go out and "flirt" a bit.

This is not flirting.

[Doctor Amadeus]

So if I walk up to a girl and say "hey I wanna take you home, throw you on the bed, rip of your clothes and eat your pussy, then I wanna flip you around and fuck you from behind"... that couldn't be sexual harassment. She would first have to voice her discomfort and tell me to stop, and then when I continue, it's harassment. Good to know. Be right back. Gonna go out and "flirt" a bit.

That’s a great approach man. But no yeah uh if one talks that explicitly yeah that’s probably gonna be met unfavorably. But yeah unless she says no and you keep at it.

However at work if you did that you should simply get fired for being extremely unprofessional.

[Raunchy]

At this point in our culture dont even try to flirt, not worth the possible repurcussions

[EverDash]

You got me wondering if this stems from the ridiculous notion of male privilege that's become popular lately. It would be hard to imagine some men have to swallow hard and fight off their fear just to talk to you and endure your judgement when the entire media and professors keep telling you that men hate you and are a privileged class without a care in the world. It destroys empathy.

First of all, "male privilege" isn't becoming more popular lately. I think you're forgetting all of human history, when men would chain entire harems of women underground and impregnate at will and murder them if they give them a son. THAT'S male privilege.

Men have less privilege than ever before in our entire existence. Which is not to say it's at a good level or that everything is fine and fixed. Just that it's lower than ever and rapidly declining. We can't club you over the head and drag you to our caves. We can't beat you or sell you as property. We go to jail now if we say the wrong thing a round you at work. So stop trying to equate that.

Second, no media or professors tell you that men hate you. The fact that harassment is an issue at all stems from the very concept that men don't hate women. If we hated women, sexual harassment wouldn't even exist. You're forcing a victim narrative where there's no room for one.

It's impossible to be a guy today. Confidence, flirting, harassment, and dating are all the same thing, depending on which women you ask and on which days. Outside of the obvious egregious examples (walking up and grabbing a woman's genitals), even smiling at a woman from across a room can get you plastered all over Facebook as #creep. WE have to navigate around YOU. Period. For the first time in history. Women decide, dictate, and enforce the rules. (Which doesn't mean all men abide by them or act like gentlemen - and those rude and obnoxious guys need to stop and go away).

On the flip side, it's impossible to ask women to understand the plight of what nice guys go through, when all they deal with is asshole guys acting like assholes. So of course their outlook on men is going to be measured by their main experiences. We get a bad rap by the few bad ones. It's an impossible situation.

[Scathbais]

Ugly/creepy guy = sexual harrasment

Handsome guy = flirting

In the US, sexual harassment has to do with workplace/other environments where unwanted flirting/sexual advances creates a hostile environment or affects a persons performance, job or advancement opportunities.

Outside of those environments there is no case where flirting is considered sexual harassment. You can ask a girl out 100 times and you (while being creepy) aren't doing anything legally wrong.

[Deleted]

This is not flirting.

Says who? It's very direct flirting.

But even if it wasn't, so what? It can't be harassment if it isn't persistent. That was the rule.

[Doctor Amadeus]

This is not flirting.

Why it’s blunt as fuck but why is it not flirting. Why do two grownups need to speak in code. Granted it’s totally not inappropriate at work or not at a club and is blunt as fuck. But it’s flirting.

[meowfurion]

It's about power. What women (and most specifically feminists) want, is power over others. Flirting becomes sexual harassment the moment a woman decides to become offended and/or the guy isn't attractive to her. Women want to pretend they are both powerful independent and strong beings who don't need no man, and then flip a switch to act like weak little rabbits who can't handle it when some "ugly" man says "nice tits" to them or whistles at them on the street. Then they blog post, and start forum threads and run to the boss and cry about feeling so objectified. I've had women at work corner me in my office and show me pics on their phones of their bare breasts and asses asking my opinion about them. I've had guys grabbing my ass at work and asking how big my dick is. Was that sexual harassment? Probably but I handled it myself rather than ruining their lives by posting who they were on facebook or running to my boss. The problem is, it's always women who hold the power over others with sexual harassment issues. Men are laughed at and largely ignored when they complain about it. Equality? LOL

[Kathandira]

In the US, sexual harassment has to do with workplace/other environments where unwanted flirting/sexual advances creates a hostile environment or affects a persons performance, job or advancement opportunities.

Outside of those environments there is no case where flirting is considered sexual harassment. You can ask a girl out 100 times and you (while being creepy) aren't doing anything legally wrong.

If you approach someone to speak with them several times, being told to stop each time, you can be fined for general harassment.

[EverDash]

So if I walk up to a girl and say "hey I wanna take you home, throw you on the bed, rip of your clothes and eat your pussy, then I wanna flip you around and fuck you from behind"... that couldn't be sexual harassment. She would first have to voice her discomfort and tell me to stop, and then when I continue, it's harassment. Good to know. Be right back. Gonna go out and "flirt" a bit.

No, you're using an example of exactly what I just said doesn't count: Extreme cases. Verbally assaulting a woman with sexual acts without an invitation is very obviously harassment. You should read the entire post before you reply.

[Hyral]

First of all, "male privilege" isn't becoming more popular lately. I think you're forgetting all of human history, when men would chain entire harems of women underground and impregnate at will and murder them if they give them a son. THAT'S male privilege.

Men have less privilege than ever before in out entire existence. Which is not to say it's at a good level or that everything is fine and fixed. Just that it's lower than ever and rapidly declining. We can't club you over the head and drag you to our caves. We can't beat you or sell you as property. We go to jail now if we say the wrong thing a round you at work. So stop trying to equate that.

Second, no media or professors tell you that men hate you. The fact that harassment is an issue at all stems from the very concept that men don't hate women. If we hated women, sexual harassment wouldn't even exist. You're forcing a victim narrative where there's no room for one.

It's impossible to be a guy today. Confidence, flirting, harassment, and dating are all the same thing, depending on which women you ask and on which days. Outside of the obvious egregious examples (walking up and grabbing a woman's genitals), even smiling at a woman from across a room can get you plastered all over Facebook as #creep. WE have to navigate around YOU. Period. For the first time in history. Women decide, dictate, and enforce the rules. (Which doesn't mean all men abide by them or act like gentlemen - and those rude and obnoxious guys need to stop and go away).

On the flip side, it's impossible to ask women to understand the plight of what nice guys go through, when all they deal with is asshole guys acting like assholes. So of course their outlook on men is going to be measured by their main experiences. We get a bad rap by the few bad ones. It's an impossible situation.

You are preaching to the choir. I called it an arguable notion (edited out ridiculous since it wasn't proper) because it is not a proven fact.