Druid Class Hall Followers Optimization

[Powy1]

polarthief Hello i was looking to see what follower you would recommend for ca on a dk. i am using the non moroes build for your spread sheet.

[Polarthief]

polarthief Hello i was looking to see what follower you would recommend for ca on a dk. i am using the non moroes build for your spread sheet.

Pre-7.3, I had listed each recommended CA but now I don't know anymore since all the follower power levels have changed with the gear and the traits not mattering as much. You probably know better than I do if you want a BG for WQ/Argus Rare help or a non-intrusive CA just for the gold/resources. Pick the one that best suits your needs and is as shitty for missions as possible (so you'll never have a conflicting gear issue in the future).

[Lyvar]

Cheers.

Having a look at setups I disagree on 2 occasions:

DH: The Kor'vas build should be the recommended one. I don't think the 15% on most but not all missions I put Allari on is worth sacrificing T7.
Rogue: I don't really get your love for Valeera (beside her looks). In 7.3 she gained the abillity to save you some ressources if she is on an AE mission but that's it. I'd prefer Garona and thus sacrifice Taoshi for Tess/Lilian. Especially if you're spamming Writs that >8h Bonus is rather doubtful (not worse than an uncountered threat but not much better either).

Concerning the other classes you haven't covered yet I have suggested the following in my german guide (going from your recommended non Moroes rosters 7.2.5):

DK: No major changes in 7.3. Whitemane is still crappy as hell and there are only 2 valid builds avoiding her. Amal'thazad (Lonewolf)+Rottgut instead of Thassarian (buff items) and Thoras are playable but I valor those buff items higher than a lonewolf.
Hunter: no changes. Hilaire and Loren still crap, Syrenne closely ahead.
Mage: Akazamzarak and Destroyer for Kalec and Modera. Kalec is still great but I prefer buff items. Destroyer is slightly ahead of Modera, too.
Shaman: no changes. Most Shamans probably have Rehgar as a CA so the choice is made around having a permanent CA (Rehgar Magatha) or one you swap in and out (Hydraxis Celestos)

Good point in unbalancing warrior specs btw.

[Polarthief]

I went ahead and fixed DH Rogue; Rogue I left the alternative in the notes. Looking back I do agree idk what I was thinking with those. I might have made them a bit late at night or when I just woke up because people asked. *shrug*

The other classes I just finished doing them.

[Lyvar]

I think at the beginning you overestimated the importance of Argus Elite and thus underestimated Boss counters (Garona) and old troops (Kor'vas)

[Polarthief]

I think at the beginning you overestimated the importance of Argus Elite and thus underestimated Boss counters (Garona) and old troops (Kor'vas)

Probably; AEs were pretty bad at the start but with rare/epic gear, it's much easier now, even with 0%/-25% base success.

[Polarthief]

Okay so I've been toying with a theoretical, probably really stupid, idea, where you go for Reduction and <8h items.

Idea: Get 30% Reduction on a Champion and stock them with 90% <8h items, though I think this would only work on a class like Druid that has T2 Reduction or champions with innate reduction (Druid has none).
Alternative Idea: Get 47.5% Reduction (Writ+Satchel) and <8h 50%, though this would only be accounting for high-duration 2-Slotter AE missions.

How would this work in missions?
- 2-Slotter AE: By far the hardest mission type, especially if it's too long to drop to <8h with only 30% Reduction. This however would give you 90% from gear if it's <8h, 75% from the Argus troop, which would be 165%. The AE counter should be more than enough to push you to 200% even from a -50% base.
Again, this is only going to work if 2-Slotter AE missions can be dropped below 8h.
- 2-Slotter Boss: 2 Champions = 180% from <8h, counters the threat, counters the spec. Easy-peasy lemon squeezy.
- 3-Slotter AE: 2-Slotter AE but even easier. 180% + 75% + AE counter. Do the math, that's more than 300%
- 3-Slotter Boss: Did anyone ever need help with these? 270% + Boss counter. Guaranteed to be under 8h unless you're doing an Elite Strike, not countering Slowings, or if there's a special mission in the future that's like an Elite Strike.

The idea is to basically make the 2-slotters easier (since 3-slotters were never a problem) while also making the 50% item always useful. There's plenty of missions where I counter a boss only to not have the right matching Spec-Ability combo and the champion who counters the Boss doesn't contribute their extra 50%, leaving me to feel forced to using Meatball's balls or waiting for Meatball (which can cause missions to expire, which is a very bad thing). With T2 Reduction and every champion at 30% Reduction, that makes most missions <8h already and most of the longer duration missions I'd probably throw Meatball on just to reduce it further (it's useful to have at least one double-Reduction champion; for classes who have one with that trait, this would be that champion for you, or Meatball).

I don't know if it will work but I'd like to see it, so I'm gonna stupidly throw away all my Counters/Mementos on my guys and test it out. Thankfully I have more spare Counters and Mementos than a memento store, so I can always swap back if it proves to be a dumb idea.

TL;DR: Need to find a better way to maximize 2-slotter missions, esp non-AE ones. 3-slotter are irrelevant at this stage since they can all be easily 200%'d without effort.

[AlCorps]

Idea: Get 30% Reduction on a Champion and stock them with 90% <8h items, though I think this would only work on a class like Druid that has T2 Reduction or champions with innate reduction (Druid has none).
Alternative Idea: Get 47.5% Reduction (Writ+Satchel) and <8h 50%, though this would only be accounting for high-duration 2-Slotter AE missions.

I think there is some merit to this, maybe a mix of 90%<8hr and 47% reduction to cover all situations.

I've been experimenting with double time reduction on Selendra and Brightwing, and they have worked out quite well.
Selendra also has the legendary with 40% counter and 40% <8h, and she is by far the best performer, getting through several missions a day, and reducing pesky 24hr missions down below 8 with another time reduction champion. Selendra and brightwing together have also been good for doing the command center missions in under a day, getting 3-4 artifact power missions done each round.

The only awkward missions are when a slowing or cursed cannot be countered, which either prevents the guaranteed 200% success due to time, or defeats the purpose of the setup as no bonus loot can be won.

[Polarthief]

The only awkward missions are when a slowing or cursed cannot be countered, which either prevents the guaranteed 200% success due to time, or defeats the purpose of the setup as no bonus loot can be won.

When using 30% Reduction 90% <8h, you can just go for the counters. What I've found though is the ~19h missions (I think 24h before T2 Reduction) that are 2-slotters and an AE are huge issues. These missions are basically impossible now without balls, and if it's gold, well, I like gold so I resort to using 2 balls on it.

Overall though, it's been kinda nice. I did switch Sylendra to 50% <8h and a Satchel over the 40%, so she's like Meatball now with the 2x Reduction, just to generate more free resources/more uses out of my T7s/AoW (AoW is never used though).

[Lyvar]

I am afraid of those AE-2-slotters as well and I guess that's why I would go for a mix as well. Perhaps Meatball/Sylendra/Mylune/Hamuul with full reduction and Brightwing/Thisalee/Remulos without? That would give the opportunity to use any Counter with or without full reduction.

[axxey]

i have 2 champions with >8hr gear(i forget who, not home atm) which nearly always solo cursed + troops if needed and everything else is double reduction 50% <8hrs or 30% reduction and 90% <8hr.

I have nothing pure mission % or counter specific anymore.

[Polarthief]

So my workaround for the ~19h non-AE missions have been using Meatball with 2x duration and any champ with 1x. It pushes it in the 7-8h range and always hits 200%.
As for long-duration AE 2-slotters, those will require the use of Meatball balls. The troop alone should take care of ~140%. If it starts at lower than 0%, I'm pretty much fucked and have to concede I can't get the 200% bonus (now if only we could get missions to have 0 champions on them...).

I'm just gonna stick with this for now and hope no vital long missions pop up, especially 2-slotters in 7.3.2.

- - - Updated - - -

Alright, here's a quick overview of some of the build setups.
Note: I'm mostly referring to 2-slotter missions (AE and non) since 3-slotters are easily 200%able with any build.

Balanced (30% Success, 50% Counter Success, 30% Reduction)
+ All around great build. Missions won't ever be too long.
+ Most missions can be 200%'d with ease. AE missions are a joke (Troop alone gives 140%, Champion gives 80%).
- 2x of the same counter on a mission may screw you until they come back.
- Non-AE missions may be difficult to 200%.
- A lot of your success revolves around certain combinations. Getting a lot of one type of threat will greatly decrease your efficiency/mission completion for the day.
- Uses epics only; might take a bit to get all the gear.

<8h (90% <8h, 30% Reduction) (not recommended for classes w/o T2 Reduction)
+ Absolutely destroys any mission <8h; I mean just crushes it to dust with very little resistance. Even Non-AE missions are a joke which are arguably the most difficult to deal with for most builds.
+ Champions that counter the boss (specialization) but don't counter the threat still contribute ridiculously huge portions of Success.
+ Unless the mission has a nasty threat (Cursed, Slowing, Disorienting on high-cost missions), your success doesn't revolve around missions giving an equal spread of threats.
+ You can decently often ignore the specialization/AE completely!
- Long-duration AE missions will force you to use success items.
- Non-AE Missions that cannot be reduced to <8h are virtually impossible.
- Everything revolves around the duration of the mission (but at least 95% of your missions will be quick!).
= Recommended to use at minimum 2 champions (Meatball and Success/Healing Item/Reduction champion) to use 2x Reduction and only 50% <8h. This with T2 Reduction (or Reduction champ) will make those ~24h missions in the 7-8h range, triggering the bonuses.
= You could switch over the 40% <8h for 30% Success. This would fix the problem with long-duration AE missions giving you an extra 30% at the cost of 10% (20% with 2 champions) for most missions where you'd get the bonus anyway.
Comments: I've been testing this build and TBH I'm absolutely loving it. I try to ignore most of the ~19h (~24h) missions unless they have gold, which then forces me to run Meatball or Sylendra on the mission since they both have the bonus Reduction. The AE long duration missions are just brutal and best to be ignored.


Success & Counter (55% Success, 50% Counter Success)
+ Tons of success just for adding champions. Good all around for any kind of mission.
+ Two champions alone will 100% any mission. Countering the threat and boss/AE is guaranteed to 200%.
+ AE missions are a joke. ~140% from the Argus Troop, 55% from Success gives you 195%. Countering the threat gets you to 245%.
+ Non-AE missions are also easy. 110% from Success, 50% from countering gives 160%. Countering the boss gives ~70-80% which is way more than 200%.
- Missions will take awhile with no Reduction.
Comments: This build is highly recommended if you don't check your missions more than twice a day (morning and night). Reduction doesn't really mean much if you're not able to check often.

Counter (30% Success, 90% Counter Success)
+ Demolishes missions if you counter the Boss/AE and threat.
+ Duration of the mission is irrelevant
- Your entire success revolves around certain combinations. Getting a lot of one type of threat will greatly decrease your efficiency/mission completion for the day.
- Missions will take awhile with no Reduction.
Comments: This build just seems worse than Success. I don't recommend it.


Overall thoughts on 7.3 builds
- Counter, while it's nice, can really fuck with you when you get all of one type of threat on your missions. I'm just not a huge fan of it because it really makes you have to balance your champions around and RNG can fuck you.
- <8h is awesome since most missions fall into this category with T2 Reduction alone. A single 30% Reduction pushes ~75-80% of missions into the <8h range. 2 30%s and a 25% (along with T2) pushes the rest into it.
- Reduction is only important if you can check your missions often throughout the day (otherwise don't run with <8h). If you check often, it's probably the best thing to have and I recommend every champion gets some level of Reduction.
- I like base Success. It's good and just gives a nice bonus for adding champions to a mission. It's very hard to justify not having a Memento on every character unless you only do <8h missions.
- You will, in one way or another, be forced to go with having Counter or <8h screwing you over. I don't recommend any build that doesn't have at least 1 Counter or <8h item (I guess you could do a >8h build but... meh; unless you only check missions once a day). It's not like pre-7.3 where we'd always throw a T2 on the mission.
- Things may change with 7.3.2. We don't know how difficult the Antorus mission will be or how long it is. We might get harder missions and everything could change.

Final Thoughts: I'm really liking the <8h build, though I think I might run with a Balanced <8h (30% Success, 50% <8h, 30% Reduction) build, with some champions (Meatball, Healing Items) running 2x Reduction and <8h. Again, I don't recommend this for non-T2 Reduction champs but YMMV.

[lycanious]

Balanced (30% Success, 50% Counter Success, 30% Reduction)

I think I might run with a Balanced <8h (30% Success, 50% <8h, 30% Reduction) build,
.

Thank you Polarthief for your great work on this topic. I'm a big fan and have been following your spreadsheet since inception (although not always fully agreeing ).

I was gearing towards "Balanced Counter", but after reading your summaries I also want to try out a "Balanced <8" (with double reduc on Meatball etc). Though it will mean that i need to get more consistent with resetting missions in the morning. I do rarely swap in my off-champs and currently have Moroes as a triple reduc. I'm thinking I will make the others ">8, Counter" just in case there is something spectacularly tough in a future patch.

[Polarthief]

Thank you Polarthief for your great work on this topic. I'm a big fan and have been following your spreadsheet since inception (although not always fully agreeing ).

Happy to help, and I like and expect people to disagree. By no means am I posting raw fact; everything is feelycraft with some theorycraft (numbers) thrown in.

I was gearing towards "Balanced Counter", but after reading your summaries I also want to try out a "Balanced <8" (with double reduc on Meatball etc). Though it will mean that i need to get more consistent with resetting missions in the morning. I do rarely swap in my off-champs and currently have Moroes as a triple reduc. I'm thinking I will make the others ">8, Counter" just in case there is something spectacularly tough in a future patch.

The only substitution I make is Mylune <==> Naralex (CA), otherwise I don't swap people ever.

Balanced is fine, I'm just really loving ignoring all the specializations and pointless threats (Powerful, Lethal, low-cost Disorienting, low-duration Slowing). with the <8h build.

Overall, 7.3 is a much, MUCH better system for gear because it actually gives you options to go with. Pre-7.3 was mostly just T2 or bust, but with counters and <8h, there's so many more options and it's mostly based on how you play (time-wise) and feelycraft. While I love <8h, a LOT of people who cannot check missions 3+ times a day aren't going to like it as much (though keep in mind, the app exists!).

[Lyvar]

Concerning Legendarys, I just got two, both already mentioned in your spreadsheet.

The Fel-Infused Legion Effigy (flat success and spells) on my Warlock was a no-brainer as I only have one permanent spell countering champion (Kira).

The Praeterium Tome of Arcana (flat success and reduction) on my Druid is much more difficult for me. Both Sylendra and Meatball are interesting options - but is it replacing the blue reduction item or an addition? If the latter is 25% success enough? Shall I give it to Hamuul or Mylune alongside with purple <8h and a Writ? Really not certain about this one.

[fallenangel-succ]

Is there an addon that shows how much over 200% you go? It's interesting to measure the overkill so that I know if it's safe to swap to a more reduction-oriented build (now mostly using what you call balanced).

[Corroc]

I've been running double duration reduction and 50% trait counter on all my alts and it works. There are couple two follower mission which are left short but putting meatball there fixes that.

[Polarthief]

Concerning Legendarys, I just got two, both already mentioned in your spreadsheet.

The Fel-Infused Legion Effigy (flat success and spells) on my Warlock was a no-brainer as I only have one permanent spell countering champion (Kira).

The Praeterium Tome of Arcana (flat success and reduction) on my Druid is much more difficult for me. Both Sylendra and Meatball are interesting options - but is it replacing the blue reduction item or an addition? If the latter is 25% success enough? Shall I give it to Hamuul or Mylune alongside with purple <8h and a Writ? Really not certain about this one.

I'd stick with the easy options and throw it on Meatball most likely, Sylendra being a good choice too.

Is there an addon that shows how much over 200% you go? It's interesting to measure the overkill so that I know if it's safe to swap to a more reduction-oriented build (now mostly using what you call balanced).

No but factor in about 10-20% success for throwing champions on missions when they're 950, I think around 75-100% for countering a boss/AE (unless there's a second Powerful threat then it's about half of what it normally should be; if 2 additional each one is ~33% of one), then you add on all your gear and order hall trait bonuses.

I've been running double duration reduction and 50% trait counter on all my alts and it works. There are couple two follower mission which are left short but putting meatball there fixes that.

I... don't see how you're 200%ing most things with that setup. Any 2-slotter non-AE mission is next to impossible if the spec-countering champion doesn't also counter the threat, on top of which you'd have to double-stack the threat, meaning your overall efficiency is really poor if you get a lot of the same type of threat.


Also a quick TL;DR regarding 2-slotter missions: If you run a Counter setup, non-AE missions will be more difficult and even if you counter both the boss and threat with the same champion, you might have to double-stack that ability and lose efficiency. If you run <8h, long-duration AE missions will be quite possibly impossible (to 200%).

[Onikaroshi]

I've just been following the 7.2 guides online, throwing +% on when i can get them (been getting a decent amount of +30%) and >8h +% and usually have around 6 200% missions going at a time /shrug, works for me.

[Polarthief]

I've just been following the 7.2 guides online, throwing +% on when i can get them (been getting a decent amount of +30%) and >8h +% and usually have around 6 200% missions going at a time /shrug, works for me.

For Argus content or just pre-7.3 stuff? Also if you're referring to 3-slotter missions, even i950 missions, they're a joke to 200%, like an absolute joke. The whole purpose of optimization now is trying to find the most efficient way at dealing with both AE and Boss 2-slotters.


Anyways, I've got a new build I'm trying out on some followers:
- Meatball and Sylendra running 47.5% Reduction and 50% <8h.
- 3 followers, one of each type of counter (I'm choosing Remulos since Sylendra can't be for Spells, Thisalee since she's my only Hazard, and Brightwing for Minions because her trait will be invaluable on AE missions), and giving them the following setup: 30% Reduction, 50% of their counter, and 50% <8h
- The other remaining followers (Hamuul, and Mylune when I'm not running a CA) running 30% Reduction and 90% <8h.

The 50% Counter/<8h is what's letting me now 200% (with Meatball's balls) the long-duration AE missions. The 47.5% Reduction champs let me do the 2-slotter Boss missions that are at the ~19h range (a 47.5% champ and a 30% champ pushes them to the <8h range), and the others are just for general mission efficiency.

175%'s a hell of a lot better than 125% (195% because the troop has a ball on him), and I can't bring myself to just flat out ignore this mission since it's a nice pile of Argunite (read: chance at a 50+ iLvl upgrade to my Arcanocrystal)