Blizzard needs to no longer balance Mythic for Method.

[Garybear]

It also seems wrong that they re-balance the content once it is already out. If they make it too hard then really they should learn to spend more time before content goes live instead of letting players playtest current content so they don't have to pay people to do their job.

[FrostyK]

u have no idea what u're talking about

Do you wish to elaborate more sir? Or you gonna leave it that? If you are going to leave it at that then... nice to meet you sir. You have a good day, my good man.

[KaPe]

They can tune it as high as they are now, they just need to go back to actually doing tuning on raids as time goes on. They've barely touched raid tuning this expansion once things have gone live outside of gigantic nerfbats when there's a couple weeks left of the content being relevant. "We'll fix it for next tier" is terrible reasoning.

Not only that, but in some cases they "fix" the fight, which in turn makes it harder for others. Like Mistress Hydra shot soaking or Il'gynoth hp buff. It wasn't really the case before Legion - if they made some drastic change to "creative use of mechanic", they'd usually nerf a boss to compensate for that... assuming said mechanic wasn't blatant abuse.

Outside of that, there's maybe couple nerfs before they release a major patch and hope it's enough. It was kinda sorta fine with Nighthold, but didn't work that well in ToS. When the main issue isn't just with numeric tuning, but multiple instant wipe mechanics, such approach has issues.

It remains to be seen if that rumoured upgradable legendary trinket will be an effective self-nerfing tool for Antorus. I have my doubts and hope Blizzard doesn't ignore the tuning simply because "one of your items will get better next week, no need to change anything else."

Are you upset because EN set the bar low and now you've learned you're not really a Mythic raider? Sorry, the most difficult content in the game should be difficult and your raid members performing at their best should be expected. If you can't cut it in Mythic there are three other more casual difficulty settings available.

Conveniently ignoring Gul'dan and just focusing on Xavius? What about Helya's Cutting Edge being active just until ToS? There's no single true difficulty level of Mythic raiding. It changes with each new raid, but with ToS it simply skyrocketed. Even with most recent nerfs and NLC, it will be way harder than NH.

But then again, I guess killing Gul'dan still doesn't mean a "real Mythic raider" to you. Which is a shame, seeing how you are Blizzard's approved authority on this subject so your opinion is absolute.

[Garybear]

I miss the old stacking buff/debuff you'd get in the last tier of the expansion to nerf the content and make it more accessible. If people are smart enough to come up with alternative strats on bosses then they should. If blizz wants you to do a fight a certain way then they should actually spend time designing encounters instead of half-assing it and then fixing their mistakes once players find them.

[Gaidax]

It also seems wrong that they re-balance the content once it is already out. If they make it too hard then really they should learn to spend more time before content goes live instead of letting players playtest current content so they don't have to pay people to do their job.

Thing is, otherwise the inverse would happen, you'd instead have threads about how WoW is too easy/casual/whatever we inevitably have when Mythic gets cleared faster than what is deemed appropriate by the angry mob.

You still, even now, have these adherents of idea that final boss of the patch should be unkillable for many weeks otherwise it's "easymode casual WoW ded" time.

IMO, I ultimately think that Tomb was overtuned when shipped, but only for like 2 encounters there and this overtuning did not really affect that many people as some in this thread believe. For example, we did not really give a damn that Avatar and KJ were crazy hard, because we knew that by the time we get there they will be nerfed, which is precisely what happened, meaning our progress was not really affected by that and we are your rank and fine "casual" Mythic guild.

I'd say overall ToS still was slightly overtuned as a whole even before Avatar, but on the other hand 3 out 9 bosses were basically throwaways as usual and only Sisters and Mistress were serious step up in difficulty. Heck, Maiden is actually piss easy too (I remember the kill feeling we had, it was literally "lol that's it?" and giggles on mumble), I'd say Sisters gave us more trouble than Maiden.

Basically, maybe sisters should have been a bit easier and that soul engine thing a bit harder, same with Mistress and Maiden, probably Mistress should have been a tiny bit easier and Maiden a bit harder.

But overall it's really nothing so much above the usual, every tier has this super annoying mid raid boss that you really don't want to mess with until you have no other choice - here it was Mistress and it was a good fight.

[Moshots]

But I find it funny, when top end players have the same gripes as low end players.

If you find this game too easy, or too hard, find a different game. It would be obvious that you are much too skilled for this game, you need to find something else. Screwing over a majority of players to cater too a couple hundred is asinine at best, and worst, going to make more players leave then not.

Heres the thing no one is catering to anyone.... Blizz themselves admitted the last 2 bosses this tier were overtuned.... NH was well tuned.. You talk about catering but nothing is catered to Method... The raid should start off hard and get easier as it goes... The only issue that anyone could/would say is needed to be fixed is HARD DPS CHECKS... suck as Star Augur/Avatar which were not able to be met without 3-4 mythic clears or 10x Heroic Splits and even then for 98% of guilds they wern't an issue who made it to those bosses with 940 average ilvl's....

The problem with this tier was required classes and personal responsibility. 4 rogues for avatar made it a whole different fight and KJ 1 missed soak=raid wipe... 2 idiots flying off side=missed dps check=raid wipe.....

Everyone agree's that TOS is overtuned but everyone also agreed that EN was undertuned.. hopefully blizz will find a happy medium.. Also not breaking bosses after they already been killed such as Mistress.. Most guild spend 5x longer reclearing mistress than they did first kill with the cheese. Should have heavily nerfed that boss in response to removing the cheese rather than allowing it to become harder to prove a point.

[Mask]

Mythic should not even be a thing. Normal and heroic is enough. Content that is difficult is fine (heroic), but designing entire raids worth of content that is designed to be PAINFUL and take forever to progress through is really lame. The only reason any one even does mythic raiding is because they inflate the item level of the rewards for it so people who want to have the best gear suffer through it. It's time to put mythic to rest and return the game to a place where many people can attempt the hardest content rather than only 1% of people.

[Elbob]

Mythic should not even be a thing. Normal and heroic is enough. Content that is difficult is fine (heroic), but designing entire raids worth of content that is designed to be PAINFUL and take forever to progress through is really lame. The only reason any one even does mythic raiding is because they inflate the item level of the rewards for it so people who want to have the best gear suffer through it. It's time to put mythic to rest and return the game to a place where many people can attempt the hardest content rather than only 1% of people.

what an awful stance... mythic shouldn't be a thing cause YOU find it painful? what about the people that find heroic painful?
Everyone can try the hardest content... you aren't gated from mythic. Mythic isn't designed to be painful btw its designed to be challenging. Every tier of raiding is another challenge from the previous one mythic is just the last step in terms of difficulty.

[Trend]

Mythic should not even be a thing. Normal and heroic is enough. Content that is difficult is fine (heroic), but designing entire raids worth of content that is designed to be PAINFUL and take forever to progress through is really lame. The only reason any one even does mythic raiding is because they inflate the item level of the rewards for it so people who want to have the best gear suffer through it. It's time to put mythic to rest and return the game to a place where many people can attempt the hardest content rather than only 1% of people.

So odd how inward looking you are. Are you unaware that you are not representative of all people? Heroic is not difficult for a lot of people. That is exactly why there is a mythic difficulty.

[FreaknRhinos]

Heres the thing no one is catering to anyone.... Blizz themselves admitted the last 2 bosses this tier were overtuned.... NH was well tuned.. You talk about catering but nothing is catered to Method... The raid should start off hard and get easier as it goes... The only issue that anyone could/would say is needed to be fixed is HARD DPS CHECKS... suck as Star Augur/Avatar which were not able to be met without 3-4 mythic clears or 10x Heroic Splits and even then for 98% of guilds they wern't an issue who made it to those bosses with 940 average ilvl's....

The problem with this tier was required classes and personal responsibility. 4 rogues for avatar made it a whole different fight and KJ 1 missed soak=raid wipe... 2 idiots flying off side=missed dps check=raid wipe.....

Everyone agree's that TOS is overtuned but everyone also agreed that EN was undertuned.. hopefully blizz will find a happy medium.. Also not breaking bosses after they already been killed such as Mistress.. Most guild spend 5x longer reclearing mistress than they did first kill with the cheese. Should have heavily nerfed that boss in response to removing the cheese rather than allowing it to become harder to prove a point.

I find it hilarious, you posted this crap.

Blizzard caters. It would be Vanilla WoW otherwise.

If you find the game too hard or easy, then this game isn't for you. Find something else to play. Mythic, Heroic, Normal. It's all the same shit, for different skill levels. Play EU4 or something.

Tuning this game is simple. Make one difficulty. If you beat it, Yay!, if you don't, too bad. That was the game when I first came out, and it should have never changed, TOO CATER to cry babies. If that one difficulty is too easy for the most skilled, find something else to play. It's what it thrown is casuals faces or in general complaints, I see no reason why it shouldn't be used here.

[Argorwal]

I find it hilarious, you posted this crap.

Blizzard caters. It would be Vanilla WoW otherwise.

If you find the game too hard or easy, then this game isn't for you. Find something else to play. Mythic, Heroic, Normal. It's all the same shit, for different skill levels. Play EU4 or something.

Tuning this game is simple. Make one difficulty. If you beat it, Yay!, if you don't, too bad. That was the game when I first came out, and it should have never changed, TOO CATER to cry babies. If that one difficulty is too easy for the most skilled, find something else to play. It's what it thrown is casuals faces or in general complaints, I see no reason why it shouldn't be used here.

The skill gap is so extremely wide in this game.

You have guilds that can't clear normal in 5 months and others that can clear mythic in 1 month.

And you'd rather there just be 1 difficulty that is a mash up of raid boss difficulties? Imagine throwing mythic mistriss at a guild that just got done with normal sisters...

Raids are nothing like they used to be.

[Pooti]

Mythic should not even be a thing. Normal and heroic is enough. Content that is difficult is fine (heroic), but designing entire raids worth of content that is designed to be PAINFUL and take forever to progress through is really lame. The only reason any one even does mythic raiding is because they inflate the item level of the rewards for it so people who want to have the best gear suffer through it. It's time to put mythic to rest and return the game to a place where many people can attempt the hardest content rather than only 1% of people.

Your opinion is seriously "It is too hard for me so it should not exist". Why is it not ok for there to be content in the game designed for a playerbase you are not a part of? Just because Mythic raiding exists does not mean you HAVE TO do it.
Also, I think the reason people do Mythic raiding now has nothing to do with loot, and is about the accomplishment. Gear can be obtained from other sources.

[Jastall]

WoD had its own issues. Such as BRF being extremely melee unfriendly (hello Blackhand) or Gorefiend being the third hardest boss in the raid.

Really every xpack has its tuning woes. Legion just saw two extremes; EN being grossly undertuned, then ToV/Nighthold who are usual Mythic raids with a few issues, then ToS where the last two bosses are just completely insane. Blizzard just needs to turn Antorus about where Nighthold was, just with less of a jump between the free kill initial bosses and the harder ones.

[Silver Forte]

i like how you bring up HFC when gorefiend was harder than anything up to mannoroth basically

EN for sure wasnt tuned around method
ToV helya might have been tuned around method, but she was also promptly nerfed.

NH was rather well balanced after star augur's ridiculous requirements were nerfed after like a week(in fact it was probably one of my favourite instances in years both in terms of balance and encounter design)

so the only problem is ToS, which is basically only an issue because nerfs came too late.

there is nothing wrong with designing bosses around method, in fact they should BUT they should also nerf them consistently once method kills them.



most guilds down KJ in 300-400 tries now, which is completely fine for a final boss

Is that a joke? 300 times?... Why the fuck would anyone want to do that? That's insane. I'd rather drive a nail through my hand.

[Nefarious Tea]

blizzard wants people to spend as much time as possible online (hence all the possible grinds in legion)

thats also why they dont care about more subs... as long as the smaller amount of subs spent more time in the game.

so making content not beatable with getting better gear and im not even talking about that gear is kind of irrelevant in Legion (since all the content gets buffed too. mythic+ and new raids which are ofc. harder).

and also not tuning the raid for the middle of the pack is all in favor for blizzard.

tldr: "its working as intended"

They couldn't give two flying fucks how much time people spend online. Just that they stay subbed. That's why Nightfallen, Broken Shore, and Argus stories were time-gated.

[Hellshout]

Well at the start I was agreeing to OP & co and then some guys did post some good arguments.
I think that it's a good thing to have the last boss on a buff until world first is over. Good for viewers and PvE enthusiasts like myself. After that, they could revert it to the regular boss.
Like tune it for normal use and just crank up the volume to see if they can kill it. If the fight is still going, then turn the volume down. But you need that base boss, the regular one, not tune the fuck out of it and then don't know wtf to do because it's too hard.

Regarding ToS, I was a bit mad that we were stuck so long on Sisters, but in the end I came to the conclusion that it was our skill(not mine, I'm too good for this game) and not the boss. And you can reach that conclusion much faster after you finally kill Sisters and the next boss should be tank n spank, yet you wipe more at Host than at Sisters...... But I like my friends, so Mistress here we come.

Overall, I think they could do 3 faceroll bosses(NH and ToS are good examples) and the forth being harder, but not a brick wall. So that regulars like myself get a sense of progression and not get stuck on first 3 until we can outgear them.

Is that a joke? 300 times?... Why the fuck would anyone want to do that? That's insane. I'd rather drive a nail through my hand.

I think that's a good number considering we spent 120+ on Sisters...
300 pull is a lot when you reach last phases all the time. But 200 pulls for 2-5 minutes of fight and then 100 for the rest is not that harsh. Even our guild did 20+ pulls in a Desolate Host night and we raid 3 hours.

[Marrilaife]

I think the biggest issue with the current raid release pace and nerf cadence that many guilds never experience the "content is on farm" period which is actually helpful so people take a breather and not jump from one wipefest into another. I'm not even talking about guilds who split run and do some special preparations before opening of a new tier. At least 1 month of "content is on farm, we clear full instance in 1-2 days instead of usual 3-4" allows people to recharge batteries for a new tier, maybe fiddle around with alts or check some other games they have missed.

"Continuous progression" might sound amazing to Blizzard (we have to keep subs rolling and not let go of any people!) but it contributes to the great mythic raider burn out in Legion. Raiders usually don't unsub anyway, because if they stop showing up the guild will cut them and recruit someone else on that spot. But nope, apparently they can't have any vacation until "great end of expansion content drought", if that's actually gonna even happen in Legion...

[Tharkkun]

yeah lets become destiny 2 where teh prestige raid came out and guilds cleared it in 2 hours and are now carrying viewers through it day 2 on twitch... Only reason to raid mythic is if progression lasts atleast 5-8 weeks for non shit a 16 hour guilds if it takes less then no reason to even raid mythic with what it takes to get ready for prog..

No one said it should be stupid easy. But when it takes 2 full weeks for a top tier guild to clear it and others months later then something is wrong with the overall difficulty. It truly is. Especially on a fight like Kiljaeden where it starts becoming boring due to how long the fight is.

[Sarevokcz]

Well at the start I was agreeing to OP & co and then some guys did post some good arguments.
I think that it's a good thing to have the last boss on a buff until world first is over. Good for viewers and PvE enthusiasts like myself. After that, they could revert it to the regular boss.
Like tune it for normal use and just crank up the volume to see if they can kill it. If the fight is still going, then turn the volume down. But you need that base boss, the regular one, not tune the fuck out of it and then don't know wtf to do because it's too hard.

Regarding ToS, I was a bit mad that we were stuck so long on Sisters, but in the end I came to the conclusion that it was our skill(not mine, I'm too good for this game) and not the boss. And you can reach that conclusion much faster after you finally kill Sisters and the next boss should be tank n spank, yet you wipe more at Host than at Sisters...... But I like my friends, so Mistress here we come.

Overall, I think they could do 3 faceroll bosses(NH and ToS are good examples) and the forth being harder, but not a brick wall. So that regulars like myself get a sense of progression and not get stuck on first 3 until we can outgear them.



I think that's a good number considering we spent 120+ on Sisters...
300 pull is a lot when you reach last phases all the time. But 200 pulls for 2-5 minutes of fight and then 100 for the rest is not that harsh. Even our guild did 20+ pulls in a Desolate Host night and we raid 3 hours.

300-400 wipes (atleast, would expect more for a guild of our callibre) is really discouraging, especially in a raid, where you have multiple bosses before, that were also into hundreds of wipes, I had enough of this tier after we killed Sasszine and got to progressing Maiden. It got reallllly depressing when even on rekills, one small mistake could easily wipe the raid. heck, Im unsubbed for a month, but since Im good friends wih them, I regurarly check how theyre doing, they killed Maiden last week and finally got to progress Avatar... and this week, after two days of raiding, they havent rekilled Maiden yet, they basically have to progress it again if they have to swap couple of people around, thats the kind of raid im not interested in. I wouldnt even say we were just horrible, we were able to get Cutting Edge Guldan with a month to spare and only felt slight burnout at the end of guldan progression after extending for 2 weeks and having an extra day for progression, this raid is IMO alot worse in that regard.

[Deleted]

How about not screwing hundreds of thousands of players that do mythic content because 20 players who raid 2x-3x more than any other top 10 guild in the world want to the content to cater specifically to their guild. And instead release a well balanced raid in the first place which they have done in the past, and if a guild that raids 12 hours finds it 'too easy' than they can deal with it.

People need to realize this is not natural, ruining the experience of hundreds of thousands of players who all pay subs too and don't want their time wasted on encounters badly designed on purpose to suit 20-30 people who raid unnaturally long hours on purpose to prevent competing with any other guild for world first.

It is not fair for top10 guilds in the world.
This is not natural.
This should not be encouraged.

Or you need to realise that you ain't that good.. seriously, yes we pay sub but does that mean we are entitled to say we are as good as those who actually kill the boss when it is hard and how it's support to be? The answer is clearly NO! Stop crying about it.