Is there any information on Orcish mages existing before Cata?

[SirCowdog]

The point people are making here is that there is absolutely no lore foundation for orc mages to exist.

I guess the only question I would have, in that case: Is there anything actually preventing orcs from learning Arcane magic?

[Magnagarde]

I guess the only question I would have, in that case: Is there anything actually preventing orcs from learning Arcane magic?

Is there anything actually preventing most races from having druids, paladins, mages and so on? If there isn't, then why don't they have most of these classes available? If there is, what is it? You can't argue one case without applying the same standard to all others.

[Deleted]

Exactly. Made. Created. Not descended from.

Yet the ogres are still very attuned to Arcane magic. Seems weird that would vanish one step down when it manged to maintain through like 5 other steps. Orc are logically attuned to arcane magic

[Magnagarde]

Why would a blood elf be interested in becoming a druid? Their relation with nature is constrained to the Farstriders who are happy with their ranger magic. Plus druidic trainers are much more rare than arcane trainers.
Meanwhile orcs are all about war power and mages have significant war power. They have a large number of warlocks so it only makes sense that some of them might try their luck with the arcane. Really orc mages are not peculiar at all. They did not exist earlier because young orcs did not have access to people that could train them in the arcane before the start of WoW and it takes at least some years to train a mage.

The answer as to why a blood elf would be interested in becoming a druid is the same as the answer to the question as to why an orc would want to become a mage. Neither have good lore reasons to have these classes, but one of these reasonless options has become reality and the other hasn't.

I understand you're trying to make sense of it, but at this point all you're writing is headcanon. I can headcanonize blood elves into being druids too.

"Certain blood elves, upon interacting with the druids of the Horde's tauren/Cenarion Circle and after adventuring in Val'sharah, have come to realize why their distant kin, the night elves, have a profound relationship with nature. They found out that there was a cure for their thirst all along and that the cure they've found in the form of the Sunwell isn't the only way out. They've trained in the arts of druidism with their distant kin and the tauren."

[StationaryHawk]

Did you check the link in the OP? There are Vanilla NPCs named " Blackwind Mage " that are literally Orcs who wear robes, purple staves and cast Arcane Explosion.

They also were obviously not taught by Forsaken, as they are members of the Dark Horde.

Seems you already have it figured out then.

[SirCowdog]

Is there anything actually preventing most races from having druids, paladins, mages and so on? If there isn't, then why don't they have most of these classes available? If there is, what is it? You can't argue one case without applying the same standard to all others.

Well, some race/class combinations don't make a lot of sense. Panda DKs, for instance. As much as I'd like to see that as a playable combo, there simply weren't many pandaren rolling around during the time-frame of WotLK or the First War. It's plausible that there were a handful of rare travelers, such as Chen Stormsnout, but probably not enough to justify an entire slew of them. But even that explanation starts to break down when you consider the Ebon Blade going out to create new DKs.

Or a better example would be Forsaken Paladins. There might be priests rolling around that can handle the pain of channeling the light in short bursts, but not the constant wracking pain that would occur from being a non-stop vessel of the light at all times.

But don't get me wrong here. I'm of the opinion that a lot of the restrictions on race/class combos don't make sense. Why no tauren rogues? Because they're big? LOL@that. If size was the reason, then we wouldn't have gnome warriors.

No, it most likely has nothing to do with lore at all. It just takes a lot of dev time to adapt all the animations and artwork to every single race model. There's equipment appearances, animations, sound effects, etc, etc, etc.

[Magnagarde]

Well, some race/class combinations don't make a lot of sense. Panda DKs, for instance. As much as I'd like to see that as a playable combo, there simply weren't many pandaren rolling around during the time-frame of WotLK or the First War. It's plausible that there were a handful of rare travelers, such as Chen Stormsnout, but probably not enough to justify an entire slew of them.

Or a better example would be Forsaken Paladins. There might be priests rolling around that can handle the pain of channeling the light in short bursts, but not the constant wracking pain that would occur from being a non-stop vessel of the light at all times.

But don't get me wrong here. I'm of the opinion that a lot of the restrictions on race/class combos don't make sense. Why no tauren rogues? Because they're big? LOL@that. If size was the reason, then we wouldn't have gnome warriors.

No, it most likely has nothing to do with lore at all. It just takes a lot of dev time to adapt all the animations and artwork to every single race model. There's equipment appearances, animations, sound effects, etc, etc, etc.

I understand what you mean. I just wanted to point out that people shouldn't attempt to justify these options lorewise through headcanon.

[SirCowdog]

I understand what you mean. I just wanted to point out that people shouldn't attempt to justify these options lorewise through headcanon.

True true. Honestly, at the point we are in the game, and with the player characters being these ridiculously, near-godlike powerful heroes that regularly break any and all rules...there shouldn't be any race/class combo that's restricted. We're time-traveling, world-walking, dimension-hopping badasses. There are literal space-ships in the sky at the same time as flying horses. There are goblins and gnomes wearing power-armor, gunslinging dwarves, blind orc-blademasters, and people are CONSTANTLY coming back from the dead. We have humans who become werewolves that are druids who turn into bears with tattoos....... :/

But right...orc mages don't make sense in the lore, guys. Honest!

[Shadowtwili]

Is there any lore on Orc mages existing before Cata, though?

Actually there is!

Not-withstanding the Ogres having had arcane knowledge (and their integration into the Orcish Horde) there was a mission in WarCraft I where the Horde raided and pillaged a Human town with mage tower to learn their "arcane secrets"

The 6th mission of the Orc Campaign:

The Humans of Sunnyglade have become fat and lazy with their prosperity. The town is like a ripe plum waiting to be plucked. You will march upon their weak Human armies and smash them to pieces. Somewhere in the town is a tower that you must keep intact so that we may study how their magiks are created. Fail me, and I will have your head on a pike at the gates of Black Rock Spire.

People also keep forgetting that the Blackrock Clan and Fel Horde have been using orc mages since vanilla and TBC respectively.

So there actually is a lot of lore on orc mages existing before Cataclysm and there was no reason for Blizzard to pull Acrypha (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Acrypha) out of their arse as a reason for the existence of "orc mages", since they have been a thing since atleast WarCraft I.

[Ramz]

Orc (and troll) mages are those who learned arcane magic from the Forsaken and possibly the blood elves. It makes sense that orcs would be able to pick up arcane mastery in a couple years (there hasn't really been a significant amount of time passed between WC3 and Cata) due to their status as quasi-Titanforged (along with ogres).
.

I made myself troll mage on vanilla wow server, and I found no mention of trolls learning anything from forsaken. Unlike orc mage trainer that balantly said that she was studying in Undercity, we have troll sorcerers that didn't had any connetion with forsaken like the three trainers in previous valley of spirits.
We even had a tablet about Gurubashi sorcerer that harmed Kraken.

I kinda wish Blizzard would bow down around this matter and either retcon or add that the arcane knowledge came from Zandalari scholars (as even in Vanilla Darkspears had a very good connection with them). At least to stop that everything magic related has to be tied either to humans or elves.

[Deleted]

Must be some. They didn't have any general tradition of the arcane, though, and mentoring is how you usually are eased into learning it.

[TheCount]

Races that are the byproducts of the Titans have been described as being easily able to learn arcane magic.
Humans, dwarves and gnomes are all the product of titanforged
Orcs and ogres are the "descendants" of Grond, who was a direct creation of Aggrmar

The arakkoa who first taught the ogres were even surprised by how a seemingly dumb race like the ogres could learn to use the arcane as fast as they did.

[omeomorfismo]

"Contact" doesn't warrant for being masterful and skillful with something. It should require generations and generations of thorough teaching and research. High elves and humans founded an entire city/kingdom and devoted themselves to this kind of specific research entirely in order to master it. The only relationship orcs had with ogres is by being their slaves and fighting for their amusement.

If "contact" warrants for attaining such powers, then all races should have all classes available and playable. Human druids, blood elf druids, troll paladin and after Legion we should also have demon hunter gnomes and goblins because they had "contact" with demon hunters and mastered the art of slaying demons.

Saying contact with someone who knows something means you attain and learn of his/her power simply looks like an attempt to rationalize/justify bad writing. MMOC's lore section is full of it and this is no exception. Sometimes bad framework, writing and ideas should be just called out for what they are; bad writing.

lol, literally human start to use arcane in the middle of war against forest troll, to the point that them can conjure a mass flamestrike.
and you are surprised that after 10/15 years of alliance with forsaken and belf, the orcs start to use something so academic like arcane magic? i mean, in ten year someone in the real world can learn math that was developed in like 3 century? why arcane should be different when it is described exactly being like mathematic.

you dont even know the definition of "bad writing"...

[Magnagarde]

lol, literally human start to use arcane in the middle of war against forest troll, to the point that them can conjure a mass flamestrike.
and you are surprised that after 10/15 years of alliance with forsaken and belf, the orcs start to use something so academic like arcane magic? i mean, in ten year someone in the real world can learn math that was developed in like 3 century? why arcane should be different when it is described exactly being like mathematic.

you dont even know the definition of "bad writing"...

I'm glad you believe an average orc has mastered the arcane in a decade or two after being born and raised as a warrior/shaman in a tribal society where only a few have ever become warlocks at some point

guess two expansions into the future and orcs will be better engineers than gnomes, better businessmen than goblins and better druids than night elves because "it has been 40 years of time spent with deze races!!" headcanon justifications will be inbound

headcanon is gonna headcanon

[pateuvasiliu]

I'm glad you believe an average orc has mastered the arcane in a decade or two after being born and raised as a warrior/shaman in a tribal society where only a few have ever become warlocks at some point

guess two expansions into the future and orcs will be better engineers than gnomes, better businessmen than goblins and better druids than night elves because "it has been 40 years of time spent with deze races!!" headcanon justifications will be inbound

headcanon is gonna headcanon

Tauren started learning Druidism after the Third War and by the time WoW came they already had an archdruid and full time druids ( not amateurs like the Gilneans ).

It's been shown time and again that mortal races can match the power of the elves/draenei with their quick learning.

In Kaldorei society women didn't really become druids until after Warcraft3 yet by the time WoW comes there are plenty women who are just as skilled as the men, who had thousands of years of experience on them.

[Syegfryed]

most old warlocks after beeing free of demonic corruption or when they join the thrall horde abandoned fel and become mages. they just are not "enough" to be playable

The shadow council with gul'dan learn the arcane way with kil'jaden.

And there are fel orcs mages in outland.

[omeomorfismo]

I'm glad you believe an average orc has mastered the arcane in a decade or two after being born and raised as a warrior/shaman in a tribal society where only a few have ever become warlocks at some point

guess two expansions into the future and orcs will be better engineers than gnomes, better businessmen than goblins and better druids than night elves because "it has been 40 years of time spent with deze races!!" headcanon justifications will be inbound

headcanon is gonna headcanon

average orc?
lulz, headcannon in his full power

but wait, you exactly described human society before troll wars
damned cronichle and its headcanon

anyway, why orc should be better than someone? are you simply using random hyperboles or are you really believe in these words?

[Camthur]

I'm sure there were Orc Mages before Cata. There's probably just about any combo of race and class you can think of out there somewhere. Cata was just the time when Orc Mages became so widespread to justify letting players be them.

[Lyssander]

Yea, the dark horde had mages since vanila. Also if I remember correctly Drek'Thar during the bonus campaign of The Frozen Throne gave you a spellbook with some pages stolen from Alliance mages.

[ablock87]

Well Orcs are descendants of Ogres, so it's completely believable that they would be adept at the arcane.