Fury warrior bug that needs Blizzards attention before tier21

[Deleted]

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17617015154

This is my post on the EU forums (PLEASE repost it to the US forums if it's not there, and feel free to phrase it better than I did, comment/upvote/read the post and report this bug ingame). I have done it all expansion long and nothing has come of it.

I copy the post here:

I have reported this bug (feature that is not fun, not logical and should not be) a LOT of times this expansion so far. Now I resort to a forum post because with the 7.3.# raid coming and the new Fury warrior set pieces this bug will be a plague to all fury warriors.

The bug comes in two forms, but in both cases it does the exact same via the same stupid, irrational behaviour of the spell Rampage.

Since the Legion prepatch hit in WoD this has been how it has worked and I have been reporting the bug ever since.

It has to do with how Rampage consumes buffs such as the one you get from critting an execute (offhand or mainhand) while having Massacre talented or the one you get from Whirlwind (making next Bloodthirst or Rampage cleave)

Critting either the offhand or mainhand Execute with Massacre talented yields a buff that grants a free use of Rampage.

Let's take the Massacre case to start with. Say we do an execute rotation with Massacre talented and it looks like this:

1) Rampage
2) Execute (crits yielding Massacre buff, free next Rampage)
3) Rampage

What do you expect to happen? We ofcourse expect the Rampage in 3) to be free. This has not strictly been the case at all since the Legion prepatch that reworked Fury in the end of WoD. It has to do with how much haste (and thus how short the GCD is of the warrior that undertakes this rotation).

Why have people not complained about this? It is painfully easy to miss. Not many people played fury in Emerald Nightmare (and haste levels were at their lowest since it was the beginning of the expansion) where Massacre was amazing. Many people played Fury in NH but Frothing Berserker was used instead. In ToS not so many people play Fury and if they do, they do not use Massacre.

My understanding is that it occurs somewhere between 40% and 60% haste that the Rampage in 1) checks and consumes buffs after global 2) has occurred, yielding situation where you pay 85 rage for a Rampage, then crit an Execute (which should reward you with a free Rampage, but then the Rampage that you paid 85 rage for already also consumes the free Rampage proc meaning you paid 85 rage + a free Rampage proc for 1 rampage which is absolutely CRAZY for fury whose sole objective is to stay enraged. It can completely stop you dead in your tracks to have this happen.

The second case is what you're going to hear people complain about in the coming raid tier. It has to do with the Meat Cleaver buff that Whirlwind grants (Meat Cleaver makes the next Rampage OR Bloodthirst cleave 50% of its damage to 4 other nearby targets).

Imagine you are cleaving to some adds from a boss:

1) Whirlwind (I get Meat Cleaver, I expect my next Rampage OR Bloodthirst to cleave)
2) Rampage (cleaves succesfully!)
3) Whirlwind ( I want to quickly make another Rampage OR Bloodthirst cleave )
4) Rampage (does not cleave because the Rampage in global 2) consumed the Meat Cleaver proc from 1) so late that 3) overwrote the Meat Cleaver from 1) before being consumed by the Rampage in 2)).

PLEASE. PLEASE. FIX THIS INTERACTION. It makes NO SENSE to have it SUDDENLY be an issue depending on what haste you have on your gear, whether you have Sephuz or War Machine or Bloodlust or other buffs that give haste active

It is a MASSIVE issue because Fury warriors CONSTANTLY jump between 30-39% (whatever gear you have currently) to upwards of 70-75% haste via War Machine or Bloodlust.

I can probably phrase this better if you need me to. I can also do more elaborate examples but hopefully the point comes across:

THE ISSUE IS: Rampage consumes buffs so late that sometimes (depending on your haste level which is very often high enough at this stage of the expansion) it consumes procs obtained AFTER said rampage was used completely screwing up your plan for the next globals and the difference is ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE.

EDIT: Currently the best Fury warrior cleave damage that you'll do in a mythic+ trash pack with War Machine, Sephuz or Bloodlust active and Odyn's Fury on cooldown, is to:
1) Whirlwind
2) Battle Cry + rampage, then
3) wait till Rampage consumes Meat Cleaver from 1)
4) Whirlwind (applying new Meat Cleaver)
5) Rampage again now that it'll actually cleave

EDIT 2: Gif displaying both interactions in quick succession: https://gyazo.com/68267d9e1ff1999ec1e4bf644860aa28

[Anuibus]

Can confirm this still happens. What they need to do is make both abilities consume the buff on activation, instead of on the final swing. With massacre, Rampage does consume the buff on activation, but will again consume it when the final swing lands. Meat cleaver is only consumed when the final swing hits, which has also caused a target being killed mid rampage to not consume the buff in the past.

Note that it didn't happen with 38% haste, or even with 48% after using a fel-oiled machine. Only when I used drums could I get it to happen. So the only times this will happen is during war machine/lust/some other massive haste buff.

[Deleted]

Can confirm this still happens. What they need to do is make both abilities consume the buff on activation, instead of on the final swing. With massacre, Rampage does consume the buff on activation, but will again consume it when the final swing lands. Meat cleaver is only consumed when the final swing hits, which has also caused a target being killed mid rampage to not consume the buff in the past.

Indeed an absolutely atrocious feeling when a Rampage consumes 2 massacre procs, on use and then from the execute that immediately follows

[Archimtiros]

Consuming the buffs on activation creates new issues, so it's kind of a no-win situation. That said, the second bug is actually helpful in this case, since you need quite a bit of Haste for the Execute or Whirlwind to come before the final tick of Rampage (over 60%). That's not to say it isn't possible, but only realistic when War Machine, Bloodlust, or similar high Haste inflations are active, and certainly not as common as implied.

As for the Rampage GCD bug, I'd love if it were changed, since I've been fighting for it since Legion alpha when I first discovered it, but it's just not going to happen at this point. From my understanding, it's an engineering level change, which is simply not worth the resource cost to fix it. That may sound silly, but it just doesn't have a big enough impact to be priority.

A lot of people have a hard time grasping that second point. How is it not high priority if it makes our DPS worse than it should be, if it makes our upcoming tier bonus worse than it should be, if that wasted time means we get less GCDs than we should? The answer is surprisingly simple: Balance. As long as the spec is balanced around the bug existing, it's not really that impactful. If they fixed the bug, we're not just going to gain a net buff of 5% dps (random number), the spec would be rebalanced around the bug not existing anymore, presumably resulting in a nerf of around the same amount for the same overall DPS. So realistically, as long as they're balancing around the bug (which they are, because the bug exists internally as well), the overall balance remains the same.

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Anyone who cares can feel free to repost my response to the EU forums as well.

[Anuibus]

Consuming the buffs on activation creates new issues, so it's kind of a no-win situation.

What new issues would it cause? Rampage already consumes massacre on activation, just not meat cleaver. The only issue I can see popping up is a target dying mid rampage would no longer keep meat cleaver active.

[Jalopy]

A few things for fury are only consumed when the final tick of the spell hits. For example w/a haste proc you can piggyback a rampage and a bloodthirst off a single meat cleaver. With enough haste I think you can use wrecking ball procs twice.

[Deleted]

Consuming the buffs on activation creates new issues, so it's kind of a no-win situation. That said, the second bug is actually helpful in this case, since you need quite a bit of Haste for the Execute to come before the final tick of Rampage (over 60%). That's not to say it isn't possible, but only realistic when War Machine, Bloodlust, or similar high Haste inflations are active, and certainly not as common as implied.

As for the Rampage GCD bug, I'd love if it were changed, since I've been fighting for it since Legion alpha when I first discovered it, but it's just not going to happen at this point. From my understanding, it's an engineering level change, which is simply not worth the resource cost to fix it.

I mean the glaring easy fix (not a perfect fix) to the cleave gameplay is just let Meat Cleaver stack to 2 with Rampage and Bloodthirst consuming 1 stack when they consume the buff. Rampage consuming Massacre at the end is just ridiculous when it also does it in the beginning and honestly just seems like spaghetti implementation. It should one hundred percent only consume the buff when you pay for Rampage (buff making it free - consume)

[Archimtiros]

I should also add that the comments about Fury AoE in M+ (one of the few places where War Machine is active enough for this bug to be impactful) aren't realistic either, because Fury doesn't have enough rage generation to Rampage back to back like that.

EDIT: Currently the best Fury warrior cleave damage that you'll do in a mythic+ trash pack with War Machine, Sephuz or Bloodlust active and Odyn's Fury on cooldown, is to:
1) Whirlwind
2) Battle Cry + rampage, then
3) wait till Rampage consumes Meat Cleaver from 1)
4) Whirlwind (applying new Meat Cleaver)
5) Rampage again now that it'll actually cleave

The only way you'll be able to BC+Rampage -> WW -> Rampage is with Legs+Helm+Carnage, a fairly ineffective setup for AoE dps.

Even if you're using Carnage, and do manage to get three Rampages in, you should be able to BC+Rampage -> WW -> Rampage -> BT -> WW -> Rampage before BC falls off, so there's no real loss.

If you're not using Carnage, you're extremely unlikely to fit a third Rampage before BC falls off regardless. If you're only going to get two Rampages inside BC, it really doesn't matter if you BC+Rampage -> WW -> Rampage or BC+Rampage -> WW -> WW -> Rampage. Therefore, the overall bottomline isn't as impacted as you'd think, just the order in which you do it.

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What new issues would it cause? Rampage already consumes massacre on activation, just not meat cleaver. The only issue I can see popping up is a target dying mid rampage would no longer keep meat cleaver active.

Massacre happens first because it makes the Rampage free, it affects the cast, not the individual hits or their damage.

Meat Cleaver affects the hits, causing them to cleave. If it were consumed on the first hit, it would no longer affect the following four hits. The spell could potentially be completely redesigned to allow it to do so, but that's so unlikely that it's not even worth discussing.

[Anuibus]

Massacre happens first because it makes the Rampage free, it affects the cast, not the individual hits or their damage.

I didn't know it worked like that. I feel like at the very least they should make it so Massacre isn't consumed a second time at the end of rampage, since its already consumed at the beginning.

[Archimtiros]

I mean the glaring easy fix (not a perfect fix) to the cleave gameplay is just let Meat Cleaver stack to 2 with Rampage and Bloodthirst consuming 1 stack when they consume the buff. Rampage consuming Massacre at the end is just ridiculous when it also does it in the beginning and honestly just seems like spaghetti implementation. It should one hundred percent only consume the buff when you pay for Rampage (buff making it free - consume)

That's not a bug fix, that's a net buff. Bloodthirst doesn't even need to cleave, it's so weak that a Whirlwind does more damage than a cleaved Bloodthirst, and you should never delay it to use Whirlwind first and ensure it cleaves in the first place. Regardless, the bug would still exist even with 2 stacks, it would just be less impactful.

Rampage consuming Massacre at the end is certainly a bug, but just to do with the way Rampage works. That said, you need a lot of Haste (~65%) for it to even happen, which many people don't have even with War Machine, making it quite rare during the Execute phase. Annoying when it happens for sure, but certainly not common enough to be a serious issue.

Keep in mind that Massacre favors Mastery, so it's extremely unlikely that you'll be stacking Haste high enough for this to ever be a real issue.

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I didn't know it worked like that. I feel like at the very least they should make it so Massacre isn't consumed a second time at the end of rampage, since its already consumed at the beginning.

They should, but that's an unfortunate byproduct of the way Rampage works, and one of the reasons I've been asking for it to be redesigned. That said, it's just not going to happen at this stage, for the same reason that the GCD bug won't: it's annoying when you notice it, but not impactful enough to devote resources away from other matters. Most players will never even notice it until you tell them about it - I've been talking about the GCD bug since alpha and still have players asking me to explain it, because they simply never noticed it.

[Deleted]

I don't play fury, just tried it a few times, so my experience was only good enough to learn the abilities and some base rotation. However this issue souds very similar to me to the frost mage Brain Freeze proc issue during NH. In this case, they managed to screw up 2 specs with similar mechanics, gg blizz. The difference is that mage playerbase is more extended and has better communication/support.

The solution was something like delaying the procs, so none were wasted after the fix and it made frost mages significantly better on single target fights without any dmg adjustments needed.

[ImpTaimer]

Is the bug that Rampage exists in the first place? Does everyone forget that ontop of Rampage eating procs while it's active, it's able to cancel prematurely and even though requires a target can fail to reach said target depending on hitbox range?

There's absolutely nothing of value Rampage adds to Fury except more arbitration for "class fantasy". Even worse they gutted Execute and then proceeded to make it mandatory because of Juggernaut.

Ontop of gutting Rage generation and forcing everyone to use Inner Rage.

Ontop of gutting any meaningful synergy with crit while forcing people to use Furious Slash for optimal rotation?

Ontop of all of these issue being talked about during Beta and all of it ignored?

We're all stuck with another expansion of whatever narcissist moron is in charge of Warrior class development because these hacks think it's ok to wait an entire expansion to backpedal.

[Archimtiros]

I don't play fury, just tried it a few times, so my experience was only good enough to learn the abilities and some base rotation. However this issue souds very similar to me to the frost mage Brain Freeze proc issue during NH. In this case, they managed to screw up 2 specs with similar mechanics, gg blizz. The difference is that mage playerbase is more extended and has better communication/support.

The solution was something like delaying the procs, so none were wasted after the fix and it made frost mages significantly better on single target fights without any dmg adjustments needed.

I remember it well; unfortunately that's a lot easier to do with a spec which freely casts, rather than one whose rotation is controlled by cooldowns.

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Is the bug that Rampage exists in the first place? Does everyone forget that ontop of Rampage eating procs while it's active, it's able to cancel prematurely and even though requires a target can fail to reach said target depending on hitbox range?

There's absolutely nothing of value Rampage adds to Fury except more arbitration for "class fantasy". Even worse they gutted Execute and then proceeded to make it mandatory because of Juggernaut.

Ontop of gutting Rage generation and forcing everyone to use Inner Rage.

Ontop of gutting any meaningful synergy with crit while forcing people to use Furious Slash for optimal rotation?

Ontop of all of these issue being talked about during Beta and all of it ignored?

We're all stuck with another expansion of whatever narcissist moron is in charge of Warrior class development because these hacks think it's ok to wait an entire expansion to backpedal.

Let's not get apoplectic here; every spec has its issues, and these are hardly the worst of the lot, nor are they gamebreaking.

• Rampage doesn't end prematurely unless the target dies, you get stunned, or go out of a fairly forgiving range, all of which stop melee attacks anyway.
• I've never seen Rampage fail due to hitboxes; if your other attacks can hit, so can Rampage, so I'm quite sure you're misinformed.
• The use of Inner Rage has nothing to do with increasing Rage generation (it actually generates less), rage generation is higher now than pre-Legion, nor does any of that have anything to do with Rampage.
• Rampage didn't neuter crit synergy, Battle Cry and the removal of bonus crit on Bloodthirst did.
• Furious Slash isn't "forced", it's meant to be the empty GCD filler, serving exactly the role it's designed for. What else would you use, Whirlwind? It fills the same role as Wild Strike did before, being the same ability and all.
• I don't know about you, but I affected quite a bit of change (including Rampage triggering Enrage in the first place, you're welcome), probably because I didn't carelessly insult designers whose decisions I happened to disagree with.

Congratulations, you've added exactly nothing relevant to the discussion.

[Deleted]

The only way you'll be able to BC+Rampage -> WW -> Rampage is with Legs+Helm+Carnage, a fairly ineffective setup for AoE dps.

Which is the reason that I post on the forums now, cause any good fury warrior will be doing exactly that in a lot of situations in the coming patch. Till now the bug was an annoyance that you can play around. Now it's a massive dps difference between not firing cleaving rampages as fast as you possibly can resulting in having to sit and wait for rampage to consume meat cleaver in order to do so.


For anyone who hasn't seen it before I caught both the meat cleaver and the massacre buff interactions here, only using drums (weaker war machine, but same as Sephuz)

https://gyazo.com/68267d9e1ff1999ec1e4bf644860aa28 I caught both instances in this short gif. Firstly I have Meat Cleaver applied (which you can see on my rampage button, on my Bloodthirst button and in the top right)
I use battle cry + rampage then whirlwind right after and do not end up with a meat cleaver buff.

To display the Massacre bug I then immediately execute, gaining a free rampage, I use that free rampage then execute immediately (still having battle cry ensures that I crit so I should get another free rampage), but the one rampage I did consumed both Massacre procs, at its beginning and at its end.

[Archimtiros]

Which is the reason that I post on the forums now, cause any good fury warrior will be doing exactly that in a lot of situations in the coming patch. Till now the bug was an annoyance that you can play around. Now it's a massive dps difference between not firing cleaving rampages as fast as you possibly can resulting in having to sit and wait for rampage to consume meat cleaver in order to do so.


For anyone who hasn't seen it before I caught both the meat cleaver and the massacre buff interactions here, only using drums (weaker war machine, but same as Sephuz)

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. That rotation, even if the bug didn't exist is inefficient. You can't chain Rampage -> WW -> Rampage without Carnage and double rage generation legendaries, which you shouldn't be using for AoE anyway, meaning nobody is going to playing that way, making the complaint is invalid for 99.9% of users. It also only matters if you have over 65% haste, which only higher geared players would have, and only during War Machine/Bloodlust.

So like I said, if you're playing properly, which most players who care about performance in the first place will be, you're not able to Rampage - WW - Rampage anyway, and will instead Rampage - WW - WW - Rampage; still getting the same total number of Rampages per BC, and negating the bug, even during periods of high Haste.

Your own gif supports this - while I understand what you were trying to showcase, you used Rampage - WW - Execute - Rampage, whereas in actual gameplay you would replace that Execute with an extra Whirlwind, reapplying Meat Cleaver and allowing your second Rampage to cleave again. You weren't even able to use Rampage - WW - Rampage, which just reinforces how much of a non-issue that particular bug is in actual gameplay.

So while the interaction is certainly annoying and unintended, it's also not prevalent enough to be a serious issue.

[Deleted]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. That rotation, even if the bug didn't exist is inefficient. You can't chain Rampage -> WW -> Rampage without Carnage and double rage generation legendaries, which you shouldn't be using for AoE anyway, meaning nobody is going to playing that way, making the complaint is invalid for 99.9% of users. It also only matters if you have over 65% haste, which only higher geared players would have, and only during War Machine/Bloodlust.

This is misinformation in the context of t21 and you will eventually see that it is once the raid is live. It is BY FAR the most damage, it's not even close. Also your claim that it's never worth it to make Bloodthirst cleave is also straight up wrong, especially in the context of the current t20 bonuses.

You should really get onboard and help get this shit fixed. I advice you to spend 5 minutes on the PTR to realize just how massive of a difference it is.

[Archimtiros]

This is misinformation in the context of t21 and you will eventually see that it is once the raid is live. It is BY FAR the most damage, it's not even close. Also your claim that it's never worth it to make Bloodthirst cleave is also straight up wrong, especially in the context of the current t20 bonuses.

You should really get onboard and help get this shit fixed. I advice you to spend 5 minutes on the PTR to realize just how massive of a difference it is.

You know I'm the lead theorycrafter for the class right? Just about every guide on Warriors in the last decade was written by me, I spend more time on the PTR than most people do on the live client, and I was the original discoverer and reporter of these bugs back in alpha.

Regarding Carnage:
It's not better. Carnage is an uncompetitive talent, in short because reducing the rage cost of Rampage by 17% is weaker than increasing it's (and all your other) damage by 15% via Frothing Berserker. The main issue lies in the fact that the circumstances required to get a third Rampage within Battle Cry with Carnage but without Frothing Berserker are too strict - you need more than 50% Haste but less than 75%, which means you need to have War Machine/Bloodlust, and you want less than 5 targets, at which point Odyn's Fury damage will outscale Rampage per target hit and Frothing Berserker will matter more, especially if you're also using Bloodbath.

To be even more concise - it looks good on low target cleave, which Fury isn't even very good at in the first place, but it's worse on AoE, which Fury is actually good at.


Regarding Bloodthirst:

• BT does 262% wdam and cleaves at 50% to up to 4 extra targets.
• WW does 201% wdam to every target.

Without T20 bonuses (which was the subject of the conversation, since we were talking about T21), WW quite obviously does more damage than Bloodthirst against two+ targets (402, 603, 804, 1005% wdam up to 5 targets vs BT's 393, 524, 655, 786% wdam up to 5 targets). This means there's no reason to delay Bloodthirst in order to purposefully cleave it with Whirlwind, as you only end up delaying rage generation and crit for enrage chance, while the BT cleave does less damage than Whirlwind in the first place.

Even with T20 bonuses, Bloodthirst is only marginally stronger; 1 stack with IR gives +50% damage, taking BT from 262% wdam to 393, 589.5, 786, 982.5, 1179% up to 5 targets. This is really only impactful when cleaving two or three targets, as the damage increase diminishes quickly from 46% down to 17% and is eclipsed entirely at 6+. Let's not forget, however, that this also requires using Raging Blow along with Whirlwind before every Bloodthirst, leading to inevitable conflict whenever Rampage becomes available for use. At any rate, you're still sacrificing rage generation by delaying BT, so even though it does higher direct damage, you still shouldn't delay Bloodthirst in order to purposefully cleave it, since the higher direct damage doesn't make up for that loss of rage generation and enrage uptime while cleaving or in AoE.

Big surprise that; guess what the T20 Fury guide, stickied at the top of this very forum says?

Multi-target
Normal rotation applies, replacing abilities with Whirlwind based on target count.

Two targets

• Whirlwind before Rampage to cleave it.

Three targets

• Whirlwind in place of Furious Slash, but continue to use Raging Blow to trigger the T20 4p.

Still don't believe me? Go download SimulationCraft and run it a few dozen times. No need to post the results though, I already know what they are because I wrote the simulations.


TLDR: You should really know who you're talking to, before you decide to talk down to someone.

You should really get onboard and help get this shit fixed.

Like I said, I first reported these bugs during Legion Alpha, and they've been a central part of every piece of feedback I've given in every PTR since that time; which is why I commented in the first place. I also provided a very clear explanation as to why the bugs won't be fixed, how they're already being balanced around, as well as an explanation as to why your example was unrealistic in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with campaigning to get an issue fixed, but you should be more willing to understand why the issue might not be as impactful as it looks at first glance, and why it's unrealistic to expect every bug to be fixed to begin with - it's not a perfect game, and it never will be, for no fault of anything other than a consistently high-tempo development cycle.

[Deleted]

You know I'm the lead theorycrafter for the class right?

I'm not going to measure dicks but really man you should just not go into this because I'm guessing you don't know who it is you're talking to. In light of the tier 21 bonuses let me shed light on why you are so massively wrong and why you should not speak so loudly about "who you are" when your logs are as mediocre as they are.

I wrote a pretty elaborate post, then decided not to share all my secrets but I'll still give you the start of it since it seems like you really need it based on your severe lack of actually playing the game and putting your theorycrafting into results in the game, not just words on forums.

Carnage is a an uncompetitive talent, in short because reducing the rage cost of Rampage by 17% is weaker than increasing it (and all your other damage) by 15% via Frothing Berserker.

Frothing Berserker's upper bound is that it increases your damage by 15%, it's not always active, so using the maximum upper bound is a pretty narrow way of looking at it. Carnage allows you to do 4 rampages in your Battle Cry compared to 2 with Frothing or Massacre. Couple that with the tier 21 bonuses. Furthermore Carnage allows 100% uptime on enrage massively benefitting autoattack damage and rage generation, more golden trait procs. It is also massively benefitting Bloodbath and Frenzy to keep up enrage only via Rampage, since those two talents suffer massively from being unenraged. Also Frothing has drawbacks such as having to reach 100 rage before using Rampage, which is less flexible than only having to reach 85/70 meaning more enrage downtime.

The list above is not exhaustive, there are more benefits that Carnage give than I listed above, it's not simply a "17% rage cost reduction", you're ignoring intricacies which mean EVERYTHING. I mean you can continue blindly following your simulations and gemming mastery, that's fine. Get off that high ego totem-pole, you're doing it wrong in-game.

I'll give you three big secrets to doing more damage as fury that you should go and practice:

1) Hit dummies instead of simulating.

2) Mouseover charge to benefit massively from tier 20 4-piece. Your homework is to figure out what I mean by that.

3) Gem and enchant haste unless it's your burst-aoe equipset. The only time Mastery was on par with haste in this entire expansion was if you had a 915 or higher DoS in NH.

[Archimtiros]

I'm not going to measure dicks but really man you should just not go into this because I'm guessing you don't know who it is you're talking to. In light of the tier 21 bonuses let me shed light on why you are so massively wrong and why you should not speak so loudly about "who you are" when your logs are as mediocre as they are.

You're right, I don't know who I'm talking to, because you're an anonymous nobody on the internet; easy to say anything in that light isn't it?

At any rate, you started measuring dicks in your last post with your condescending attitude, and I've averaged 90th-99th percentile every tier for the last 3 expansions, so I think I do quite alright, thank you very much.

Frothing Berserker's upper bound is that it increases your damage by 15%, it's not always active, so using the maximum upper bound is a pretty narrow way of looking at it.

It's always active when you use Rampage, so it's completely relevant to the discussion.

Carnage allows you to do 4 rampages in your Battle Cry compared to 2 with Frothing or Massacre.

No, it does not. Even with 70% haste, you will only barely get three, there aren't even enough GCDs in 7s in which to get 4 with only 1 GCD between them, and you can get 3 without Carnage at over 75% Haste, which is exactly what I wrote above.

Furthermore Carnage allows 100% uptime on enrage massively benefitting autoattack damage and rage generation, more golden trait procs.

No, it does not. Top end is around 92% enrage uptime with Soul of the Battlelord for Massacre included, about 8-10% less if you decide to forgo Massacre in favor of a second Rage legendary. Weighed again the 85% uptime without Carnage and 73% uptime on a 15% damage increase, which is also always active during burst, it's not even comparable.

It is also massively benefitting Bloodbath and Frenzy to keep up enrage only via Rampage, since those two talents suffer massively from being unenraged. Also Frothing has drawbacks such as having to reach 100 rage before using Rampage, which is less flexible than only having to reach 85/70 meaning more enrage downtime.

No, it's not. Bloodthirst is a better button than Raging Blow without Inner Rage, and Bloodbath doesn't suffer at all from being unenraged, since you'll never be unenraged while using it during Battle Cry and will easily maintain Enrage for 3 seconds after it ends. Bloodbath also gains far more out of the extra 15% damage from Frothing than pressing Rampage a couple more times, even with T21.

The list above is not exhaustive, there are more benefits that Carnage give than I listed above, it's not simply a "17% rage cost reduction", you're ignoring intricacies which mean EVERYTHING.

Yeah, I'm sure. Always on the winning side when you counter hard math with unspecific "intricacies", which is probably why you dropped the Bloodthirst v Whirlwind point too isn't it?

3) The only time Mastery was on par with haste in this entire expansion was if you had a 915 or higher DoS in NH.

Actually DoS had nothing to do with Mastery being higher during Nighthold; it was the use of 2p T19, which enabled Enrage during the Execute phase. Higher enrage uptime = higher Mastery weight. Same reason Mastery is stronger in T21 with Massacre.


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Hate to say this, because I really liked your initial post, but you're one of the worst kinds of people on the internet. You made a well-reasoned post bringing up a valid concern, but as soon as you hear something you don't like, wowee do you get ornery fast! All of a sudden you're flinging insults, claiming to know all sorts of "secret little tricks" like you're some Shaolin master of internet-fu, which conveniently only you know about. I even broke down the numbers for you, and your only response is "I have secrets". Ok, buddy, whatever you say.

You can take your holier-than-thou attitude and crawl back into obscurity.

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No, it does not. Even with 70% haste, you will only barely get three, there aren't even enough GCDs in 7s in which to get 4 with only 1 GCD between them, and you can get 3 without Carnage at over 75% Haste, which is exactly what I wrote above.

Ok you got me, you can only get 4 when you get the 20 rage from Odyn's Fury golden trait. (no bloodlust no sephuz no war machine). And if you don't get those 20 rage you use bloodthirst and then you get the 4th rampage still within the 8sec window of 75% extra damage.

Aaaaand here's how much you know about your class https://gyazo.com/8268820dd3400501a646a1a49a10b8cd. "Oh but you didn't get the 4th one entirely within BC", no, not quite yet. Imagine with Antorus gear, aka more haste. Or imagine any war machine m+ situation, or imagine Bloodlust on pull, or imagine sephuz + war machine in m+ or simply the first or second rampage proccing Rage of the Valarjar. Maybe you should try playing the game. Hit dummies with different talents. Also, start playing for boss damage, stop the whoring.