Difficulty/Complexity

[Toogoodman]

Wrong. Boss ability bloat means that you don't learn a spec and adjust your knowledge as it gets changed. You learn every boss instead. Also, removing the difficulty from the character you play and transferring it to an NPC that is fought by a group decreases your ability to stand up to the challenge.
Best example: Any level KJ and, say, Mythic Maiden. You can be the best in the world, but it doesn't mean you won't get wiped by someone else easily and unavoidably.

This 100%, as a sub rogue, I absolutely raiding mythic, but after close to 500 wipes now on M KJ (kill me), the things that keep wiping us are fucking orbs on the second DPS adds, or some idiot derping and missing a soak. Now, with all these "mechanics" I have to soak nearly every orb (i get a pass on the first one due to my opener), and also be close to the #1 dps on every pull. If i had no idea how to play sub, and was thrust into this much progression, it wouldnt matter, because you learn to optimize every button push to get you through every timer, its not knowing your spec, its learning the fight. THIS is not fun, couple that with shitty 1 shot raid wipe mechanics, and youve got cancer.

Most of the people in here complaining have probably never experienced a fight like M KJ, and say "oh the games boring with our easy specs". I have two things to say to this, first being, no matter the spec, there will be a skill gap, learn it. Even when i had to play assassination there were subtle things I was able to do, that apparently 99% of people didn't think of, because I was constantly parsing 95%+, while being modestly under geared for NH (915 ilvl). My second point, half the specs are really easy, like aff lock (which still has a skill gap), but to say sub rogue, survival hunter, feral druid, fire mage... etc. are "easy" is laughable, anyone can mash some buttons, that doesn't mean your damage wont completely fucking suck.

[kamuimac]

You think you want this, but you don't. Also your reasoning is flawed. The devs develop with DBM etc. in mind these days. breaking these addons would mean they wouldn't design raids as they do now. What it would mean is a return to Molten Core/BWL levels of "complexity"; it would remove complexity, not bring it back.

and thats exackly the idea - its riduculous that you need extrenal addons in order to even be able to kill the boss

devs should never develop anything in game with addons in mind - if players want to make game artificially easier by puting in addons its their choice.

this is what made wow ridiculously complicated for average player

[tratra]

Remove the ability of DBM, Raid Tools, WA, etc to track things so well. /thread

Can't agree with you more on this.

I get that a lot of people only care about numbers nowadays... They haven't played the game before those numbers were a thing.

I still remember raiding full Naxx noone cared what DBM was saying, if you had a DC or whatver. The game was just fun.

There was difficulty in to getting people to interact together etc, but its was just a FUN game. No complexity, no numbers run.

[Toogoodman]

You think you want this, but you don't. Also your reasoning is flawed. The devs develop with DBM etc. in mind these days. breaking these addons would mean they wouldn't design raids as they do now. What it would mean is a return to Molten Core/BWL levels of "complexity"; it would remove complexity, not bring it back.

A lot of people want MC/BWL difficulty because theyre potatos lol.

[durrtygoodz]

I didn't mean interface addons, I meant DBM and such. Anything that warns you for boss mechanics.
I think they should keep the interface addons that rearrange visual feedback, but remove buff timers and cd trackers / boss mechanic warning signs.
That way you REALLY need to learn the bosses and classes. Develop an internal clock for stuff.

This forum has been littered with threads over the past 2 months whining about how hard ToS is and how guilds have been destroyed over it. But "muh dbm makes it so easy"

[tratra]

and thats exackly the idea - its riduculous that you need extrenal addons in order to even be able to kill the boss

devs should never develop anything in game with addons in mind - if players want to make game artificially easier by puting in addons its their choice.

this is what made wow ridiculously complicated for average player

Agree with that and the whole reasoning behind it atm is so stupid.

So what does it take to become a so called Mythic raider at a top 100 guild nowadyas? Literally nothing more than just doing your research, adding addons and WA where appropriate, learning to min-max your class to a point which in reality is all done through guides as well, and thats it.

Literally all the complexity and skill and whatever they are calling it is just a matter of time if someone just invests time into learning that stuff.

Why not go back to where people just had fun playing the game and you didn't need to have WA to kill bosses or to maintain a rotation... why do we even need a rotation in the first place, that thing sucks, literally does.

Pve should be like PVP. You choose on what to use when you think its appropriate. Not just do a rotation and avoid fire.

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A lot of people want MC/BWL difficulty because theyre potatos lol.

When bwl was current I bet you'd be stuck at razerogore trying to figure it out mr potato. You'd think you know but you don't.

[Toogoodman]

When bwl was current I bet you'd be stuck at razerogore trying to figure it out mr potato. You'd think you know but you don't.

Lmao i played vanilla, had the coveted "server first" on every single boss (except 4hm/saph/kt). The game was simply not hard, I remember putting 6 days of raiding in because I needed to clear BWL for trinkets, AQ40 for Cthun, farm what we were killing in Naxx, and the occasional 20 man for leg/head/should enchants. I also remember putting hours in for consumables, this is what was hard, not the actual bosses, those raids were a joke compared to todays raids, and we all ran some sort of boss mod.... so im not too sure what you're getting at with "remove boss mods". I also ran damage meters (actual name of addon lulz), xperl, DBM so i wouldn't pull threat. The game has ALWAYS depended on addons, just because your heyday was raiding MC and killing up to chromag in BWL doesn't mean we all fucking blow at the game.

Also, I hate ToS, and I liked the raids in TBC and Wrath the most, but were never getting that back, so no sense in complaining about it. Mods are part of the game, blizzard loves that third parties are actually devoting time to their game, and it makes their game better.

[Deleted]

I'd prefer fights being easier and classes actually being harder to play. It's more structural and will last longer than relying on encounter design to introduce difficulty.

[Gaidax]

Lmao i played vanilla, had the coveted "server first" on every single boss (except 4hm/saph/kt). The game was simply not hard, I remember putting 6 days of raiding in because I needed to clear BWL for trinkets, AQ40 for Cthun, farm what we were killing in Naxx, and the occasional 20 man for leg/head/should enchants. I also remember putting hours in for consumables, this is what was hard, not the actual bosses, those raids were a joke compared to todays raids, and we all ran some sort of boss mod.... so im not too sure what you're getting at with "remove boss mods". I also ran damage meters (actual name of addon lulz), xperl, DBM so i wouldn't pull threat. The game has ALWAYS depended on addons, just because your heyday was raiding MC and killing up to chromag in BWL doesn't mean we all fucking blow at the game.

Also, I hate ToS, and I liked the raids in TBC and Wrath the most, but were never getting that back, so no sense in complaining about it. Mods are part of the game, blizzard loves that third parties are actually devoting time to their game, and it makes their game better.

Heck to add to this, back then addons were unleashed, shit like decisive auto dispelling or smart healing on whatever you want with simple macro. They eventually reduced this, but reality is that Vanilla addons were actually more powerful than now. Heck I remember my C'thun server first - you had DBM, you had range meter and you also had smart healing macros with smart decursive, so as a healer you could basically roll your face over 2 buttons and you did great and as a DPS literal one button rotations were a thing.

The super complex Vanilla experience yo. I rerolled lock in TBC - result - cast Shadow Bolt 500 times - win.

[Toogoodman]

Heck to add to this, back then addons were unleashed, shit like decisive auto dispelling or smart healing on whatever you want with simple macro. They eventually reduced this, but reality is that Vanilla addons were actually more powerful than now. Heck I remember my C'thun server first - you had DBM, you had range meter and you also had smart healing macros with smart decursive, so as a healer you could basically roll your face over 2 buttons and you did great and as a DPS literal one button rotations were a thing.

The super complex Vanilla experience yo. I rerolled lock in TBC - result - cast Shadow Bolt 500 times - win.

Seriously, on Cthun i also remember the Cthun Warning addon that basically told you were eye beam was going to hit.

Also, as a rogue, I pressed literally 2 buttons, MAYBE 3 if I had adrenaline rush up and could get an evis off between my SnD..... that super excited game play...

[Dilemma90]

I think min/maxing your toon and dealing with Mythic during real progression is pretty hard for most of us

[netherflame]

Mythic progression isn't fun right now because of all the one shot mechanics they've added, theres little to no recovery allowed on these fights. Mistress, Avatar, and KJ are actually not fun to do, and are what is causing all this burnout.

[Millyraynge]

Lmao i played vanilla, had the coveted "server first" on every single boss (except 4hm/saph/kt). The game was simply not hard, I remember putting 6 days of raiding in because I needed to clear BWL for trinkets, AQ40 for Cthun, farm what we were killing in Naxx, and the occasional 20 man for leg/head/should enchants. I also remember putting hours in for consumables, this is what was hard, not the actual bosses, those raids were a joke compared to todays raids, and we all ran some sort of boss mod.... so im not too sure what you're getting at with "remove boss mods". I also ran damage meters (actual name of addon lulz), xperl, DBM so i wouldn't pull threat. The game has ALWAYS depended on addons, just because your heyday was raiding MC and killing up to chromag in BWL doesn't mean we all fucking blow at the game.

Also, I hate ToS, and I liked the raids in TBC and Wrath the most, but were never getting that back, so no sense in complaining about it. Mods are part of the game, blizzard loves that third parties are actually devoting time to their game, and it makes their game better.

11 of 10 MMO-C users have played since vanilla in server first guilds.

[Myztikrice]

There are a lot of servers

[Jastall]

The complexity of this game isn't doing your rotation, it's doing it while obeying mechanics. Always has been, and apart from outliers (mostly DoT classes before Blizz axed snap-shotting) rotations in this game have never been very hard to do in a vacuum, especially pre Wrath. Hard part is doing them perfectly while half a dozen abilities can kill you and you need to be in X place at Y time or you die/wipe the raid.

It's kind of like saying an FPS is easy because you can hit the target dummies at a practice range with all the guns. That's cool, now do it when something (someone) tries to kill you.

As for addons like DBM, they've been part and parcel of the raiding scene since mid-vanilla at the latest, and they aren't going away because Blizz would have to rethink their entire fight design, or just integrate them so that every ability is accompanied by a corresponding message. Besides, it's not like addons make Mythic easy.

[Armourboy]

There are a lot of servers

There are also a ton of liars. Every time there is a poll done something like 80% of the people here say they started in Vanilla. Considering the turnover we know has existed over the years, the odds of that actually being true are slim to none. Even more so when you start talking about sever firsts ( and no I'm not saying the guy that posted here is lying, it's just a general observation).

I'm all for more complex classes ( even if it makes alts harder to pick up) and easier fights. The book that boss fights have become over the years has seriously gotten old. That's not to say I want a bunch of tank and spank fights, but it has the feel of listening to music that has a ton of notes played but isn't really all that moving.

[Girrag]

Harder class mechanics and easier raids of course. Playing your own class, planning and preparing must be a challenge. Not how fast you can run around of million billion moving void zones and fires and how fast your reaction time is. And then you won't need DBM.

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devs should never develop anything in game with addons in mind - if players want to make game artificially easier by puting in addons its their choice.

They can't do otherwise anyway. If you develop raid without addons in mind - then everything will be too easy for people with addons. They can't even check how easy or hard raid is. To make any measurement you need a big dataset from people playing without addons. And those people don't exist. All data they have is from people with addons.

[david0925]

The game has not been complex with or without addon outside of very specific fights (Mythic Archimonde in WoD off the top of my head).

There seems to be this weird notion of "mythics are easy because of addons". This is really not the case. Neither Avatar nor KJ even while Method is working on them were mechanically complex: they were basically simple mechanics that are all binary pass/fail checks with overlaps that you end up need to memorize and choreograph (Overlap one is A>B>C and overlap 2 is C>A>B, etc) perfectly while doing near-perfect throughput.

From the looks of things half the posters in here just watch mythic videos and think they are easy or even easier with addons: that's not the case and until you're actually in that spot you can't really see it well.

[Ipsissimus]

Bring back intra-class variance relying more on player aptitude rather than gear and RNG. Whether this is also coupled with easier raid mechanics or not is less relevant to me, I'm fine with keeping the current amount of mechanics and encounter tuning.

[kamuimac]

They can't do otherwise anyway. If you develop raid without addons in mind - then everything will be too easy for people with addons. They can't even check how easy or hard raid is. To make any measurement you need a big dataset from people playing without addons. And those people don't exist. All data they have is from people with addons.

and ? if people want to cheat the diffuculty by using addons its their choice - they hsouldnt complain then the game is too easy though and demand for it to be made harder just for them.

most of people do not use addons - and game should never be designed around them - its the crucial design flaw showing incompetence of people in charge of game.

blizard should have banned dbm and weakauras years ago instead making fight harder and harder to the point where in legion even world best guilds complain about game being to hard and not worth puting time into it.