"Bring the player not the class" philosophy has backfired pretty bad

[Lionhearte0]

What game are you playing? I can tell you one "unique button" without even thinking.

Feint.

Top guilds in my realm were hunting for Rogues like the plague just because of their soaking capabilities. Even subgeared, or unexperienced people were being looked over veterans just based on class.

The same also happened to a large extend in EN with different classes. I didn't play NH so I couldn't know.

The homogenization helped nothing at making some classes distinctly superior than others, yet it killed a lot of the fun of messing around with group composition.

Now raids are mostly "Stack whatever is good at the current patch".

This was a good thing?

[clevin]

Shamans could only be Draenei on alliance side, so there were never 10 slots solely saved for those two specific things. Locks were going to be top 3 dps no matter what due to their obscenely simple rotation, you were bringing a lock solely for curse of elements. The only specs that were truly perma benched in TBC were ret pally and boomkins, due to their garbage dps and utility. But even that started to change towards sunwell.

Sorry, was using those as a couple of examples, not as "these are the only reasons". My point was more that in TBC you were gimping yourself if you brought some classes vs others (a 2nd spriest, as another example) which led to people sitting players who they'd like to have brought because of class limitations. THAT was the genesis of "bring the player, not the class" - they wanted you to be able to bring the people with whom you wanted to raid without as much regard to what class they were playing.

[kary]

So ITT, some monthsbehind.com kid thinks that you still have to class stack for ToS, that about the gist of it, right?

[jiih]

I can see the philosophy behind this: "Everyone should be able to pick whatever they want", "it will be easier for us to make raids" , "balancing will be easier", "casuals will have it easier to join a raid".

Guess what? It failed and backfired. Horribly.

When each class was a class and not a role, you could almost always find a place since each class had a niche that none other could fill. It did not matter if your spec was not that good since that spec was needed regardless of the stats.

Nowadays you must either play the FotM as tank/DPS/healer or pray that Blizzard buffs your class so you will be able to play it.

you already used to classstack in the past (8 warlocks yoggsaron??7deepfiremages lk hc?)

main reason it didnt get abused to the extend as of nowadays was that it took you eternity compared to the 10hours nowaday to be ready and you only had the people of your server to use and not this anonymous eu-wide clownfiesta.

[Soon-TM]

I liked that many raid fights back in BC, and even during WotLK, my job as a Mage wasn't simply to pew pew the boss until it fell. I had to kite/CC adds, decurse people, etc. It felt far more compelling and complex than the world epeen contest that we have today, but I guess that my Arcane Mage was spoiled by the 2pc-T5 bonus and my spriest buddy...

[ComputerNerd]

What you describe is a problem with players.
That if a what a player brings isn't the "best", they aren't good enough.
That has noting to do with the original approach which would for mechanical reasons also exclude players for the same reason.

[Khallid]

I can see the philosophy behind this: "Everyone should be able to pick whatever they want", "it will be easier for us to make raids" , "balancing will be easier", "casuals will have it easier to join a raid".

Guess what? It failed and backfired. Horribly.

When each class was a class and not a role, you could almost always find a place since each class had a niche that none other could fill. It did not matter if your spec was not that good since that spec was needed regardless of the stats.

Nowadays you must either play the FotM as tank/DPS/healer or pray that Blizzard buffs your class so you will be able to play it.

The philosophy of "bring the player, not the class" has never been properly implemented. Tomb of Sargeras is more like "bring the Rogue, not the useless class without immunities".

[Spicymemer]

Ive ignored 7 pages of comments because its easier to assume mmo-c userbase are only clearing normal difficulty.

Bring the player not the class has failed.
The statement is only relevant to mythic raiders (specifically ones that are close to, or have completed entire current raid BEFORE the nerfs)

Bring less than 3 rogues and 3 mages/hunters to mythic FA? Good luck
Bring more than 2 dk's to Mistress? Good luck
Bring less than 2 feral or guardian druids to KJ? Good luck
Bring less than 1 warlock to every single raid encounter of every instance of every tier of every expansion? Good luck
Bring healers that dont have DR raid cooldowns? cya
Bring tanks that have less than 7 mil health? cya

Somewhere between Wotlk and Cataclysm was the best balance this game has seen from both a pve and pvp perspective.

Wotlk was a little heavier on the hybrids, they usually did slightly lower dps, but brought more utility, there wasnt a single spec that you would say was bad. (except maybe secondary dps specs like ass/arms/frost/destro)

Cataclysm was a little more DPS balanced, there were fewer raid buffs and more specs provided more buffs, this allowed more stacking of serious FoTM specs, but that was really only at the TOP TOP end.

Its not necessarily the maximum DPS output that makes class stacking an issue, its how niche specs have absurd applications, Tomb of Soaks has brought to light just how broken some classes are.

Theres not a single fight in Tomb where i can say to myself (a shadow priest main), 'my class feels uniquely strong on this encounter, its a shame we dont have another one....'
2..3..4 Rogues?
3..4..5 Hunters/Mages?
3..4..5 Warlocks/Boomkins?
2 Guardian Druids?
Yeah... that raid is fucking amazing.
If the player is bad? you recruit to replace them, you dont bring in a shitty spec and make the fight more difficult.

[Blamblam41]

Really? Please point to me how you now think "Well, maybe I should get an Elemental shaman for this caster group, and a Fire Mage for this debuff, and this or that". DPS warriors for Sunder, Battleshout and increased damage for Bleed classes. Unholy DKs for increased magical damage.

Oh wait, you don't. You just stack "Whatever is good this patch".

So...bullshit is what you're saying. With nothing to back it up.

Because needing a dps warrior to sunder and battleshout and those other stupid things WERE the "stack whatever is good this patch." of their time.

How do you not fucking realize that, fundamentally, requiring buffs and debuffs unique to particular classes to counter specific mechanics is just as bland as requiring the mathematically best DPS possible to counter the mechanics?

- - - Updated - - -

Ive ignored 7 pages of comments because its easier to assume mmo-c userbase are only clearing normal difficulty.

Bring the player not the class has failed.
The statement is only relevant to mythic raiders (specifically ones that are close to, or have completed entire current raid BEFORE the nerfs)

Bring less than 3 rogues and 3 mages/hunters to mythic FA? Good luck
Bring more than 2 dk's to Mistress? Good luck
Bring less than 2 feral or guardian druids to KJ? Good luck
Bring less than 1 warlock to every single raid encounter of every instance of every tier of every expansion? Good luck
Bring healers that dont have DR raid cooldowns? cya
Bring tanks that have less than 7 mil health? cya

Somewhere between Wotlk and Cataclysm was the best balance this game has seen from both a pve and pvp perspective.

Wotlk was a little heavier on the hybrids, they usually did slightly lower dps, but brought more utility, there wasnt a single spec that you would say was bad. (except maybe secondary dps specs like ass/arms/frost/destro)

Cataclysm was a little more DPS balanced, there were fewer raid buffs and more specs provided more buffs, this allowed more stacking of serious FoTM specs, but that was really only at the TOP TOP end.

Its not necessarily the maximum DPS output that makes class stacking an issue, its how niche specs have absurd applications, Tomb of Soaks has brought to light just how broken some classes are.

Theres not a single fight in Tomb where i can say to myself (a shadow priest main), 'my class feels uniquely strong on this encounter, its a shame we dont have another one....'
2..3..4 Rogues?
3..4..5 Hunters/Mages?
3..4..5 Warlocks/Boomkins?
2 Guardian Druids?
Yeah... that raid is fucking amazing.
If the player is bad? you recruit to replace them, you dont bring in a shitty spec and make the fight more difficult.

'The statement is only applicable to mythic'

Yes, bring the player not the class has failed for .001% of the player base.

Seems pretty successful for literally everyone else.

And not a single spec in WotLK was bad? Are you fucking high? Destro warlocks were relevant for literally Onyxia/ToGC when they buffed Chaos Bolt and then subsequently faded to irrelevance when ICC brought phylactery and other dumb DoT interacting shit. And this is just from warlocks perspective, considering this is an era where ArP was still a stat so a class like feral druid or arms warrior would swing wildly between relevance and irrelevance purely based off the properties of a single stat.

WotLK's balance was, by far, one of the worst examples of good class balance in the history of this game. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And PvP balance in fucking Cataclysm. You were alright with Blood Knights in 4.1 soloing 3v3 matches then? Cool fucking game br0.

[ComputerNerd]

Class interdependancy needs to be brought back ASAP. If it no longer matters how the different specs boost each other you'll keep bringing the classes with the best situational abilities like immunities.

And that is no different.
It is just another version of what brings the best tools.
And that fundamentally isn't something that blizzard can prevent a class actually doing, bringing a tool better than another has.
What blizzard tried to do minimise the instances where a gap was formed by the need or expectation for a certain tool which as few as a single spec could provide.

[Craaazyyy]

And PvP balance in fucking Cataclysm. You were alright with Blood Knights in 4.1 soloing 3v3 matches then? Cool fucking game br0.

you were bad if you were soloed by a blood dk in cata lol.. they werent even op, ppl just didnt know how to play against them.. then they changed tanks so they couldnt gain attack power from being attacked and tanks stopped being a thing in arenas for some time

again pvp BALANCE wasnt the best in cata, but it wasnt awful outside of some things like dks early on with that glyph of death strike or resto druids being shit whole expansion, or legendaries/pve sets/trinkets being OP.. but then again the game was so much more fun to play and i'd rather have fun than play balanced boring game.. 4.2 patch(pvp season 10) was pretty balanced, not alot of ppl had legendary staff yet

[Spicymemer]

Because needing a dps warrior to sunder and battleshout and those other stupid things WERE the "stack whatever is good this patch." of their time.

How do you not fucking realize that, fundamentally, requiring buffs and debuffs unique to particular classes to counter specific mechanics is just as bland as requiring the mathematically best DPS possible to counter the mechanics?

- - - Updated - - -



'The statement is only applicable to mythic'

Yes, bring the player not the class has failed for .001% of the player base.

Seems pretty successful for literally everyone else.

And not a single spec in WotLK was bad? Are you fucking high? Destro warlocks were relevant for literally Onyxia/ToGC when they buffed Chaos Bolt and then subsequently faded to irrelevance when ICC brought phylactery and other dumb DoT interacting shit. And this is just from warlocks perspective, considering this is an era where ArP was still a stat so a class like feral druid or arms warrior would swing wildly between relevance and irrelevance purely based off the properties of a single stat.

WotLK's balance was, by far, one of the worst examples of good class balance in the history of this game. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And PvP balance in fucking Cataclysm. You were alright with Blood Knights in 4.1 soloing 3v3 matches then? Cool fucking game br0.

I can tell you're an expert at clearing normal level content.

Congratulations.

[quellious]

What game are you playing? I can tell you one "unique button" without even thinking.

Feint.

Top guilds in my realm were hunting for Rogues like the plague just because of their soaking capabilities. Even subgeared, or unexperienced people were being looked over veterans just based on class.

The same also happened to a large extend in EN with different classes. I didn't play NH so I couldn't know.

The homogenization helped nothing at making some classes distinctly superior than others, yet it killed a lot of the fun of messing around with group composition.

Now raids are mostly "Stack whatever is good at the current patch".

I can promise you that no one is going to look for a sub-par rogue on Mythic KJ just because of Feint.

[Hinastorm]

Just read the first few responses and wanted to drop a reminder to the mmochamp 1%'ers.

The cutting edge mythic progression scene is a tiny blip on the raid scene in this game. Yes, bring the player not the class mostly just resulted in these guilds stacking fotm classes.

The real value of bring the player, and why it has largely succeeded, is that you can clear heroic in a reasonable time frame with pretty much any comp. That and the fact that heroic flexes, theres never been a better time to be a heroic or lower raider, imo. That, and while balance is still not as good as it could be, outside of 3 or 4 specs out of 30+, balance has never been better. ( These 3 or 4 specs are largely apparently abandoned, which is pretty shitty, but thats for another thread.)

[Blamblam41]

I can tell you're an expert at clearing normal level content.

Congratulations.

And I can tell you're apart of the group of players constantly catered to after constantly whining that other players got on their digital level.

[Halicia]

"Bring the player not the class" was back in the days when we still had the hybrid tax.

While I'm fine with progression raiding being focused on optimizing classes & specs, I think that overall they've done a wonderful job of allowing my answer to be "what class/spec does the guild need? to be "whatever you prefer playing".

I'm not exactly fine with "soakers" in Tomb... especially with it being disproportional to small groups... but other than that every other fight goes smoothly on Normal and Heroic with little concern to the classes/specs people choose to play. (although I wish they'd expand the summon functionality to a class/spec besides warlock... even if its an overpriced consumable)

[Blamblam41]

you were bad if you were soloed by a blood dk in cata lol.. they werent even op, ppl just didnt know how to play against them.. then they changed tanks so they couldnt gain attack power from being attacked and tanks stopped being a thing in arenas for some time

again pvp BALANCE wasnt the best in cata, but it wasnt awful outside of some things like dks early on with that glyph of death strike or resto druids being shit whole expansion, or legendaries/pve sets/trinkets being OP.. but then again the game was so much more fun to play and i'd rather have fun than play balanced boring game.. 4.2 patch(pvp season 10) was pretty balanced, not alot of ppl had legendary staff yet

PvP balance was awful in cataclysm and near middle wasn't really balanced, either. Between resillience drs and layered CC problems that wouldn't be fixed until MoP, cata fundamentally had the same problems WotLk pvp balance had.

And then we get into Dragon Soul era in Cata PvP with heroic gurth, heroic trinkets, heroic windward heart, orange daggers and there goes your precious half assed PvP balance straight down the gutter of PvE trash.

Also fucking spell penetration. No balanced PvP season has had ArP or SplP. That is all.

[Craaazyyy]

PvP balance was awful in cataclysm and near middle wasn't really balanced, either. Between resillience drs and layered CC problems that wouldn't be fixed until MoP, cata fundamentally had the same problems WotLk pvp balance had.

And then we get into Dragon Soul era in Cata PvP with heroic gurth, heroic trinkets, heroic windward heart, orange daggers and there goes your precious half assed PvP balance straight down the gutter of PvE trash.

again i said you want too much balance and that isnt possible(or atleast blizzard dont know how to make it possible without breaking the game).. and when you want balance it leads to wod/legion dogshit pvp

s10 was pretty fucking balanced cuz outside of mls and jungle there were zero comps that were even remotely imbalanced.. 2011 blizzcon that was played in that patch was the one and only blizzcon ever when a comp that maybe had a disadvantage won the whole thing.. Korean phdk.. other than that almost all the time there was one dominating comp that was winning blizzcon.. sometimes there were a couple of these comps

also mop was more imbalanced in reality than cata.. it had so many imbalances that it made it kinda balanced(if that make sense), but it was only the case later in mop.. and even then it was dominated by casters(especially warlocks)

and also trinkets(items in general) being super op doesnt make the game imbalanced.. its not the problem with the actual game rather than the problem with the items.. they just werent able to prevent that from happening by just nerfing these items in pvp

also your last point is retarded.. s7 was the most balanced season ever(well atleast the most balanced i ever played in, cuz i quit in wod, i guess the most balanced season when you count the time when the game wasnt boring) and it was in wrath and you had both arp and spell penetration.. in s7 outside of highly geared atc's there were no comps that were really that OP.. and to gear ATC you had to farm PVE gear and until later in the season no on had that gear.. and it was also not easy to play ATC so atleast on my BG it wasnt really a huge thing..

oh ye, balanced pvp is overrated

[Spicymemer]

And I can tell you're apart of the group of players constantly catered to after constantly whining that other players got on their digital level.

Blizzard dont cater to the 0.1%?

[Nathreim]

Bring the player would work is Blizz could balance classes and specs better. No reason why Blizz cant make all specs viable if they just put in the effort.