Difficulty/Complexity

[TorikSAn]

How i see this vote...
1) "Easier class/spec mechanics - Harder raid mechanics"
Voted by people who like more PVP like style where you have to learn/react more often and get new "emotions" as often as you can.
IMHO may stress to much players that don't like learning process.

2) "No change - happy with status quo"
Voted by people that like how it's now. (My vote)

3)Harder class/spec mechanics - Easier raid mechanics
Voted by people with specialist mind, they like to learn long at start but then use those knoledge again and again and again.
IMHO will become boredom for those who get exited by learning process itself. Because different bosses will still look pretty similar.

Now about DBM and other things. IMHO dev don't balance anything around them, yeah they take their existance in account but all encounters are doable without them...
About DBM even if you "ban" it you can't "ban" https://media.istockphoto.com/photos...re-id159756787 and all hardcore people will use some kind of "NoteBook" that give information what is comming next and when. Blizzard could easily make (non-rythm style) encounter that can't be DBMed like with heavy random timers and ect. they even tried it some times (and this become hardest for players, because people with bad reaction time and not very good inner time feeling have problems with such design). About devs developing around DBM just imagine (example Dev thoughts: now we have to add some work for healers... So they will be healing raid damage, it will come from fire spits from boss, at 3 random targets by 60% of their max HP, every 30 sec... WAIT THEY HAVE DBM WEAKAURA and ect... So it will be 5 targets 80% HP and every 20 sec.) For me this sounds bullsh***t. I'm sure they develop around players they aim those encounters for... When they created those overtuned KJ and Avatar they made this because they wanted to make really "On the Edge bosses"... But misscalculated that "Edge" to high... If there won't be TF or DMB that "Edge" would have been at same overhigh level (for example demanding to farm previous Mythic bosses for Mythic quality gear for 2-3 months) because they wanted it to be really "on the edge".

[FrostyK]

the difficulty level of class mechanics are vastly different across all specs. It's hard to poll if you lump them all together.

[tratra]

Rotation = Choosing the correct skill to use at the right time. i think thats what you just said!
Avoid fire = Use whatever skill I have or move to avoid damage. you also have to do this to "outplay" your pvp opponent

just kidding. I get what u mean. Pvp is more dynamic compared to raid mechanics that are mostly scripted.

Btw even with these addons and research, ALOT of raid groups are still wiping @ a few of ToS mythic bosses. It's still significantly difficult.

Anyways imo, its both Blizz encounter design and severely outdated UI that makes these addons necessary. Until this changes, expect DBM/BigWigs etc to still be almost mandatory for raiders.

It is very difficult, I just can't see how its fun. And that comes from a player that raided top world for Vanilla, TBC, Wotlk, and raided on a top 300 level for Mop. I literally can't find the joy in raiding anymore. The game has become too hectic. I don't think I lack the skill or the attention to raid competitively at a top guild. I just don't find it FUN at all. I don't see it as a game. The game has just become too serious at points. And you'll tell me ok there are different difficulties, try HC you don't need to go mythic... well HC is like mid-tier, its not that easy, its not that hard either, eventually you'll pug it.
I feel like ok you don't need to dumb it down to vanilla levels of pure tank and spank but you don't need to have it to TOS levels. You can find the middle of difficulty. I see wotlk as a good example of that and ICC. It had some average fights and the difficulty increased but there was room for error, for fun and for dps cheesing etc. You'll tell me between the top raiders there is always that, yes sure but its more a chore nowadays, I don't think many people enjoy raiding TOS as a raid tier :/

My point being is it doesn't have to be more difficult to be fun, it can be fun even if its not too difficult and too punishing. It just needs to be a game that you forget about stress etc and go on. Wow atm is a place where you get online to get stressed more than before.

[cuafpr]

potatoe cause i'm ok with classes are is mostly, but i'd be ok if bosses had less mechanics for the sake of having them. I get they are needed now with the plethora of addon's out there to assist, so thus i'd be OK breaking things like DBM for bosses that had fewer mechanics but still felt fun to fight.

[Protean]

I guess on the topic of people wanting addon-handholding gone vs keeping them, it's a matter of whether you think playing a game should require a download and someone telling you what to do or not to win the game.

I guess one could call it a modern day Walkthrough maybe?


For me the fun is learning stuff, having to read a manual first on my class, second on ten bosses doesn't seem to be in the spirit of playing games. Still I'm a mythic raider and doing what has to be done, but that doesn't mean I can't wish for things to change. They have certainly broken other addons for trivializing encounters. They can do it again and I honestly wouldn't shed a single tear if they did.

[Girrag]

I do not understand the hate for DBM / BW. Using tool to make things easier / accessible? Fuck, I hope you never used a calculator to get the integral and differential of a given formula. I hope you never used a hammer (because, come on, your mighty hand is enough for that task!). Or for god's sake a car.

It's some kind of wallhack basically. And if players think that's it's OK to use them - then developers are doing things totally wrong.

[Swiftshadow]

It is very difficult, I just can't see how its fun. And that comes from a player that raided top world for Vanilla, TBC, Wotlk, and raided on a top 300 level for Mop. I literally can't find the joy in raiding anymore. The game has become too hectic. I don't think I lack the skill or the attention to raid competitively at a top guild. I just don't find it FUN at all. I don't see it as a game. The game has just become too serious at points. And you'll tell me ok there are different difficulties, try HC you don't need to go mythic... well HC is like mid-tier, its not that easy, its not that hard either, eventually you'll pug it.
I feel like ok you don't need to dumb it down to vanilla levels of pure tank and spank but you don't need to have it to TOS levels. You can find the middle of difficulty. I see wotlk as a good example of that and ICC. It had some average fights and the difficulty increased but there was room for error, for fun and for dps cheesing etc. You'll tell me between the top raiders there is always that, yes sure but its more a chore nowadays, I don't think many people enjoy raiding TOS as a raid tier :/

My point being is it doesn't have to be more difficult to be fun, it can be fun even if its not too difficult and too punishing. It just needs to be a game that you forget about stress etc and go on. Wow atm is a place where you get online to get stressed more than before.

i definitely understand how u feel.

Actually, most of ToS fights are ok. just a few that severely punish the entire raid just for ONE mistake. Don't think I need to mention which at this point. But just as a comparison, it was quite common to see people wiping continuously when LFR KJ first came out.

Yes, and WotLK was definitely the BEST expansion ever for me. Good variety of dungeons, mostly good raid designs, bearable rep grind, no flight gating, VERY alt friendly etc. Class balance wise, was far from perfect but hey, it's not THAT much better now anyways.

Legion was a VAST improvement from WoD, but I still question wth is Blizz thinking with some features of the game now.

[netherflame]

I do not understand the hate for DBM / BW. Using tool to make things easier / accessible? Fuck, I hope you never used a calculator to get the integral and differential of a given formula. I hope you never used a hammer (because, come on, your mighty hand is enough for that task!). Or for god's sake a car.

Because making things easier through WA/DBM forced blizz to make things harder........

[kamuimac]

since when normal need DBM?

since when people do go there in group like "LFM EM N 920 + or gtfo"

people are doin ridiculous requirments to do not care about mechanics - because people dont give 2 shits about mechanics - they want to overpower and overgear the f... out of bosses exackly to dont use those mods.

thats the truth about the playerbase - boss could have 1-2 mechanics overall and 95 % people would be perfeckly happy standing in place and pushing buttons

only liek 5% neckbeards would complain because "weeeeweeeee chalenge bla bla boring" - look at what hapepend in EN - liek 100-200 people were compalining on forums while rest (couple of milions ) had fun in game - and wht blizzard did ? - went complete 180 degrees back fucking up ton of guilds in NH and ToS to people what 1 % which are whiners ? this just shows devs who have no clue what general playerbase wants - they only try to please top 1 %

[Gaidax]

since when people do go there in group like "LFM EM N 920 + or gtfo"

Implying inflated requirements is somehow tied to DBM... kk bro.

This was always the thing since the times raids became puggable, which is pretty much a WoTLK thing, as far a I remember. Blaming that somehow on boss mods which existed in pretty much the same capacity already in Vanilla is laughable.

[omeomorfismo]

since when people do go there in group like "LFM EM N 920 + or gtfo"

people are doin ridiculous requirments to do not care about mechanics - because people dont give 2 shits about mechanics - they want to overpower and overgear the f... out of bosses exackly to dont use those mods.

thats the truth about the playerbase - boss could have 1-2 mechanics overall and 95 % people would be perfeckly happy standing in place and pushing buttons

only liek 5% neckbeards would complain because "weeeeweeeee chalenge bla bla boring" - look at what hapepend in EN - liek 100-200 people were compalining on forums while rest (couple of milions ) had fun in game - and wht blizzard did ? - went complete 180 degrees back fucking up ton of guilds in NH and ToS to people what 1 % which are whiners ? this just shows devs who have no clue what general playerbase wants - they only try to please top 1 %

and blizz where is in all this? the encounter arent designed with addon in normal and lfr

[kamuimac]

Implying inflated requirements is somehow tied to DBM... kk bro.

This was always the thing since the times raids became puggable, which is pretty much a WoTLK thing, as far a I remember. Blaming that somehow on boss mods which existed in pretty much the same capacity already in Vanilla is laughable.

ofc it is - if mechanics would be easier people wouldnt need to pay so much attention to them - chances of wipe due to mechanics would be lower and people wouldnt depend only on overgearing the f... out of encouter to the point where mechanics dont matter

one has to be reall dumb to not see connection between those 2.

if it wasnt for dbm and weakauras blizz wouldnt design such complicated encounters.

This was always the thing since the times raids became puggable, which is pretty much a WoTLK thing, as far a I remember. Blaming that somehow on boss mods which existed in pretty much the same capacity already in Vanilla is laughable.

are you gonna seriosuly claim that you dont see any difference in mechanical difficulty of encounters between wolk and now ?

how can you say that with straight face i wonder unless you didnt raid back then

and blizz where is in all this? the encounter arent designed with addon in normal and lfr

with lfr i can agree to the point

in normal ? ofc they are - to the point where blizzard has to openly remove certain mechanics from normal due to how many of them are put into game - and the reason why they put so many is exackly dbm/wa

[Gaidax]

ofc it is - if mechanics would be easier people wouldnt need to pay so much attention to them - chances of wipe due to mechanics would be lower and people wouldnt depend only on overgearing the f... out of encouter to the point where mechanics dont matter

one has to be reall dumb to not see connection between those 2.

if it wasnt for dbm and weakauras blizz wouldnt design such complicated encounters.




are you gonna seriosuly claim that you dont see any difference in mechanical difficulty of encounters between wolk and now ?

how can you say that with straight face i wonder unless you didnt raid back then

Chill the babyrage, what I am saying is that bossmods today don't do anything mods they did not do in WoTLK or heck even Vanilla. The only difference is that you did not have weakauras in Vanilla, but you already had powerauras in WoTLK.

With years technology improved, with every raid they introduce something new like the whole Time Dilation thing in NH or Darkness in ToS, heck even some relatively "simple" phasing trick like in Engine of Souls - in WoTLK phasing was MUCH less powerful and refined and this could not be done then.

Now let me ask you this, did they add phasing to Engine of Souls or Darkness to KJ or Time Dilation to NH, because bad mean boss mods that existed forever?

No, they didn't. They added it because it is a cool new thing for a 13 years old history of raid encounters. And all that complicates said encounters.

[Zenjie]

I would love to see that gear matters more then ilvl only.
f.e. Resistance gear to able to survive the encounter. (Gives you more goals to collect then just ilvl).

[FrostyK]

I would love to see that gear matters more then ilvl only.
f.e. Resistance gear to able to survive the encounter. (Gives you more goals to collect then just ilvl).

Lol those MC ,BWL days of farming resistance gear.... no pls. never!!!!

[Chuckadoodle]

i'd prefer harder raid mechanics ALL classes can deal with not just immunties like ToS, and blizzard need to consider how much movement affects classes, some are not hindered at all and some are completely crippled, i don't see how moving half the encounter is "difficulty" losing half my casts or die isn't much of a choice and you can't really plan to have instants or use mobility because sometimes it just goes on too long.

This...so much this...

[omeomorfismo]

ofc it is - if mechanics would be easier people wouldnt need to pay so much attention to them - chances of wipe due to mechanics would be lower and people wouldnt depend only on overgearing the f... out of encouter to the point where mechanics dont matter

one has to be reall dumb to not see connection between those 2.

if it wasnt for dbm and weakauras blizz wouldnt design such complicated encounters.




are you gonna seriosuly claim that you dont see any difference in mechanical difficulty of encounters between wolk and now ?

how can you say that with straight face i wonder unless you didnt raid back then



with lfr i can agree to the point

in normal ? ofc they are - to the point where blizzard has to openly remove certain mechanics from normal due to how many of them are put into game - and the reason why they put so many is exackly dbm/wa

what? you are saying that some encounter in normal are nerfed because proved "impossible" without add on, or that the fact that normal encounter are gutted of some heroic/mythic mechanics requiring add ons would prove that they are designed with add on in mind? because that doesnt make sense.
and for the first i sincerely dont remember any mechanical nerf on normal.

anyway, to make the things simple, what are the bosses in normal that need addons?

[Tradu]

I honestly wouldn't mind if they broke all these addons.

It feels cheap to beat a boss because of having an addon that tells you where to go and what to do.


Just let me keep non-dynamic TellMeWhen. I'm || this close to being able to completely remove my action bars from sight.

Don't see how that's a bad thing, there should be no need to have your actionbars showing, just track relevant CDs with WAs and hide actionbars.

OT: I'd much prefer harder(and more interesting/deep) class/spec mechanics, because in the end you spend 100% of your time in-game playing a class, so having that be interesting and fun seems like it should be the top priority to me. You'd need every single boss in a raid to be 10/10 in terms of "fun points" to match having your spec being 10/10 "fun points"(because the spec is there on every boss, while each boss is only relevant maybe 1/10th of the time you spend raiding), and having bosses be that good is just not realistic in any way.

- - - Updated - - -

remove dbm/ weakuaras / recounts / logs etc and 3/4 of people will be unable to clear HC - this would bring complexity and difficulty back to game.

sadly devs are to big of pussies to do whats nessesary.

No, that'd bring suboptimal play and no way to know what to improve on back to the game. Sounds pretty shitty to me.

- - - Updated - - -

the difficulty level of class mechanics are vastly different across all specs. It's hard to poll if you lump them all together.

There's a definite trend of specs becoming easier than in the past(Cata/MoP/WoD), which Blizzard have said is intentional because they want to make hard bosses rather than hard specs... for whatever reason.

[Deleted]

Kay, if you say so. /shrug

Private server, lul.

Just start ignoring the obvious troll. It's clear he's just out to derail discussions.

Vanilla combined both simple encounter design with simple class design. The difficulty came from getting 40 semi-competent people together and having them actually do what they are supposed to do.
I played a Mage back then. It was basically nothing more than spamming Frostbolt and wanding for mana or to lose threat with minimal to no movement involved in the large majority of all fights.

[A Chozo]

Harder class/spec mechanics - Easier raid mechanics.

This way, the whole game would be better for me since I like some complexity and more possibilities in my class. With the raid difficulty reducing, things would balance out, and it would be even easier to spot who is performing below-average in the raid.