PvP Template = Idiocy

[Achilles55]

In my opinion the PvP stat template single handedly killed pvp in Legion. I've never seen pvp in a worse state or with lower participation than it is today. Making gear not matter in an mmo is very counterintuitive and removes any sense of meaningful progression. This is just another example of catering to bad players so they don't get completely crushed in random bgs. High level pvpers have amazing gear anyway so it doesn't help them. There are games with stat templates that work such as mobas, most shooters, pubg, etc but they don't have a place in mmo's.

[gushDH]

As a concept it's awesome. No gear, only skill. I would even go further and deactivate artifact weapons in PvP.

As a concept, it's wrong for an mmorpg. Gearing up is fundamental for these games, and you should feel stronger when you get better gear. Whoever plays pvp is like "I level to 110 and then basically play a moba". That's a problem. If you enjoy pvping in an mmo, this should mean you also enjoy gearing up. If it doesn't, then mmorpg is not the type of game for you and a moba is a better solution. You can play battlerite if you want equallity in an rpg type pvp environment.

[Osmeric]

Can't wait until Blizzcon when they announce that this feature is staying so people shut up about it. This is just getting out of hand at this point.

This feature may or may not stay, but I think they are likely to announce major PvP changes at Blizzcon. The business performance of that part of the game was apparently so bad the lead left the WoW team.

[Deleted]

As a concept, it's wrong for an mmorpg. Gearing up is fundamental for these games, and you should feel stronger when you get better gear. Whoever plays pvp is like "I level to 110 and then basically play a moba". That's a problem. If you enjoy pvping in an mmo, this should mean you also enjoy gearing up. If it doesn't, then mmorpg is not the type of game for you and a moba is a better solution. You can play battlerite if you want equallity in an rpg type pvp environment.

ever heard about Guild Wars mmorgp? u could insta get strongest gear in pvp, before gw2 came out, millions of players were playing that game it had amazing pvp, so saying if u enjoy pvp u should enjoy gearing up is wrong, in pvp it should be all about skill, not gear. That what makes pvp fun when you can outplay other player, if you want to outgear someone then you play pve its that simple.

[Deianeira]

No, it was replaced with larger health pools.


Literally the only thing that was required for that is scaling everyone's gear to the same ilvl in instanced PvP, which was possible before templates.


No it wasn't, ilvl scaling of gear is the one and only thing that was required to make it competitive and fun...

PvP specific talents are entirely irrelevant since the normal talents still work there too. I have to ask, do you even PvP right now? Because I feel like the people who say this think the normal talents don't work in PvP or something... They don't make it "more fun", you just copy paste the "best" ones and go.

Also, PvP talents aren't a part of the template... They exist entirely separate from one another, which means there is no point at all to discussing them in a thread about the template.


I agree on that, and we're still nowhere near that being the case in instanced PvP... and PvP out in the world is more of a mess than it has ever been.

Templates are in every way worse than the old system with ilvl scaling. They blanket nerf primary stats to tune damage, which results in nerfs to survivability because almost every heal and absorb in the game scales off those stats too. The templates don't work in world PvP or duels, where the old system did.

So, how are templates positive? Because all I see are negatives.

Just curious why is it so important to have it work in Duels and Wpvp? The only thing you gain from that is that you killed this or that player in a duel or wpvp and that you get practice on 1v1 in the case of duels. So whats so important about it not working in duels? Is it that you cant faceroll some noobs in arena/rbg as easy as Before or that you get smacked by Mythicgeared raiders in duels?

[Kagthul]

they need to stop trying to make pvp into a seperate game, and focus on what makes mmorpg's fun. Instead of butchering insentive to play with shitty loot systems, butchering the rpg feeling with lack of character power progression (Which is the KEY element this game revolves around, get gear, do more damage, etc.). stop butchering the feel of class knowledge by making all abilities act different in pvp and by having new talents that you can only use in pvp (cc's being capped at 8-10 sec should be the absolute max extent of this, you can keep diminishing returns because that mechanic still exists in pve.).

When you do the above, you get legion pvp, which is not wow, it's a different game, a boring game that tries to look like an rpg, but is just a poorly designed moba where you start at max power and dont have to farm mobs and buy items. Heck even moba's have more rpg elements than wow pvp. It's such a flop.

This, right here.

They had "PvP Gear" right in WoD (about the only thing they got right with WoD). Lower iLevel in PvE, max iLevel in PvP. Worked fine.

The only thing ill agree and disagree with at the same time is "making all abilities act different in PvP"

I 100% agree that they should not ACT different, but one of the ways they can keep PvP under control is by having different coefficients for PvP.
The main thing they have to do here is update the damn tooltips. So, Corruption, for a warlock would have say "Does X damage over Y seconds. Does Z Damage over Y seconds to Player Targets."

It works the same way, it just has different damage values, as needed. to prevent one-shot stupidity. But it needs to be clear as fucking day IN GAME what the different damage numbers are.

Otherwise, spot-on.

[Schattenlied]

Just curious why is it so important to have it work in Duels and Wpvp? The only thing you gain from that is that you killed this or that player in a duel or wpvp and that you get practice on 1v1 in the case of duels. So whats so important about it not working in duels?

Because they used to be fun and now they aren't? WPvP and Duels are completely and utterly void of any of any of the PvP balance measures, when they didn't used to be... There is absolutely no reason for PvP to drastically function differently outside of instances... The only difference between instanced and non instanced PvP should be ilvl scaling. Balance should be in effect everywhere.

It's not so much important that it works in duels. It's important that the old system + ilvl scaling does everything templates do better, and ALSO works in duels and world PvP as an added bonus.

Is it that you cant faceroll some noobs in arena/rbg as easy as Before

I have already said, in the post YOU QUOTED, that ilvl scaling should be included in instanced PvP. Did you not read it at all or are you just illiterate? Because it addresses this and makes the question irrelevant.

or that you get smacked by Mythicgeared raiders in duels?

Gear has nothing to do with it, it's the balance methods (that being adjustments to damage and healing/absorbs, and active mitigation for tanks) not working in any way shape or form... Back in previous expansions abilities were tuned individually for PvP, that meant it worked everywhere, and was more precise. Now almost all tuning is done via blanket primary stat adjustments on the template, which can't be activated outside of instanced PvP because of various conflicts. In addition, as I have already said, blanket stat adjustments are not precise, they nerf a class' primary stat to reduce their damage, and as a consequence, it also gets a survivability nerf that was completely unwarranted.

Templates are, in every single way, worse than the old system + ilvl scaling... The only thing templates fixed are the barrier to entry of gear in instanced PvP, which scaling all gear to the same ilvl (same method used for timewalking) also fixes, with none of the problems that templates bring. There is literally no reason for templates to continue to exist when they are the worse option.

[Mafic]

Not sure how anyone could dislike it, honestly.

The biggest problem the game has always had was pvp imbalance due to pve.

What better way is there to solve this? To my knowledge, there is not one.
Doesn't mean its perfect, but its gotta be a fucking ton better than with out it.
Makes me think you just don't like pvp if you are complaining about the templates this late into their implementation.

WoD ilevel scaling > Legion template.

Undergeared players were scaled up in WoD and actually they could scale them to up to the cap if they wanted to. In Legion they removed the cap and have a soft normalization of gear and modification of based stats (template) where gear matters still (eg ilevel) to an extent to push people to keep rolling for titanforged gear.

Templates isn't needed to create a level playing field. Ilevel scaling up undergeared players existed for several expansions before Legion.

Templates should be removed.

[MechaCThun]

I would think the main issue with PvP templates is relying on Blizzard to adjust the percents of primary and secondary stats. Given Blizzard's history of "balance" I could see that deterring people from playing a certain class in instanced PvP due to these percents being tuned.

[Lorianus]

The one problem i have with templates is that blizzard got kinda lazy with their nerfs, most of the time they now adjust the overall dmg of a class via main stat tuning, which is bad in my opinion when for example:

Lets say ability AB does too much damage, pre templates that ability would have been nerfed bei 10-20% or something, now they just go on their way and nerf str/int by 5-10% nerfing that one ability that did too much damage while also gutting the dmg of my entire rotation and defensive cd's/healing that scale off of my mainstat.

[Caolela]

ever heard about Guild Wars mmorgp? u could insta get strongest gear in pvp, before gw2 came out, millions of players were playing that game it had amazing pvp, so saying if u enjoy pvp u should enjoy gearing up is wrong, in pvp it should be all about skill, not gear. That what makes pvp fun when you can outplay other player, if you want to outgear someone then you play pve its that simple.

GW2 PvP is basically shit. There are a few OP meta builds you're forced into for 5v5 or WvW or get your guts stomped. The ability bar is fixed like a MOBA and there is weapon switching for some builds which is counter-intuitive. Cheating that goes unchecked because of a few streamer well-knowns at the top of the ladders that ArenaNet loves (same mutual dicksucking that Blizz does with Bellicostco, ABN, Bailamos, Datacus...), and the MMR system is a fucking joke.

And that's just for starters.

[Deleted]

GW2 PvP is basically shit. There are a few OP meta builds you're forced into for 5v5 or WvW or get your guts stomped. The ability bar is fixed like a MOBA and there is weapon switching for some builds which is counter-intuitive. Cheating that goes unchecked because of a few streamer well-knowns at the top of the ladders that ArenaNet loves (same mutual dicksucking that Blizz does with Bellicostco, ABN, Bailamos, Datacus...), and the MMR system is a fucking joke.

And that's just for starters.

im talking about Guild Wars pvp thats why i said it had amazing pvp and no other mmorpg created such balanced pvp like gw did, why u compare gw2? that game is all about pve and pvp doesn't matter in there while in gw was all about pvp. Have you even played gw?

[Bryntrollian]

Resilience wasn't the balance system... The balance system was individually adjusting ability damage through the "does X% less/more to players" function tied to every ability in the game.

Resilience was to make the time to kill longer, which was replaced in WoD with larger health pools, long before templates were a thing.


That being said, I also agree that templates are awful... They are imprecise balance, they use things like Agi/Int/Str to blanket adjust damage despite it also effecting absorbs and heals that scale off of it too, so every time they nerf someone's damage they also nerf their survivability... Not to mention templates don't work in duels and world PvP, where the old system did.

The template system is inherently flawed to it's core, and is in every way worse than the old system... The templates should be removed and the old system should come back. The only good part of templates is scaling everyone to the same item level, which can be and was done with the old system by setting the ilvl of everyone's gear to the same ilvl while in instanced PvP(in low lvl BGs during WoD, the ilvl of everyone's gear was scaled to the same number, which proves it was possible).

Those two things didn't actually co-exist, and were in fact separate iterations of PvP balance.

[Appelgren]

Its perfect in the areas that matter. Instanced/Rated PVP. If you only care about world pvp or duels then wow isnt for you.

[Lahis]

yes it is but for some reason they can't help themselves from creating power creeps still. if they stop this silly rpg nonsense that seemingly has to be a part of everything it would be great.

RPG mechanics in a RPG game? PREPOSTEROUS!

[Schattenlied]

Those two things didn't actually co-exist, and were in fact separate iterations of PvP balance.

you can't quote a post talking about more than 2 things and say "those two things" without context to what you are talking about. What was it, resilience vs healthpool, templates vs ability tuning? You need to specify what those two things are.

[Alvito]

yes it is but for some reason they can't help themselves from creating power creeps still. if they stop this silly rpg nonsense that seemingly has to be a part of everything it would be great.

That is because people want to work towards something and get rewarded for the effort and time they put into the game. While this system is far from perfect it gives them one of the best shots at a level playing field they have had and also gives a perk all be it a small one to those that work towards them.

[ilik2345]

Even if the old gearing was in place, and imho this was more fair then templates are now, it would still suffer from AP not being capped and the new artifact abilities working in instanced pvp. That is a huge grind / disparity.

[haxartus]

A few points about the templates:

1. Not even competitive esport MOBAs works like this. Yeah, everyone starts the same in League of Legends for example, but in the middle of the game you can have people do 1v5 based on their performance during the game, since every kill gets you closer to gear that makes you stronger.

2. It just takes away any kind of choice for the players. If I feel that my damage is low, can I gear specifically for more damage (and probably less survivability) ? No, Blizzard decided how much damage I should do, how much health I should have and I didn't have any choice in the matter.

3. Long term goals and progression. There just isn't any, besides a nice icon at the character portrait and a few skins. The core idea of an RPG is to improve your character. You can't introduce ideas against the core idea of the game, it just doesn't work. People just don't want it.

4. World PvP. They completely destroyed it. Now PvE dragonslayers are pretty much immortal in World PvP and dedicated PvP players can't do anything. It may not look like a fault of the templates, but it is - they just decided that with the PvP instanced templates the discussion about balance ends and they can just ignore other aspects of PvP that are not instanced PvP.

[Charge me Doctor]

It is extremely stupid behavior to replace a PvP balancing system that worked in all parts of the game (resilience)

Nice joke. I laughed way longer than i should actually.

No, pvp templates are the best thing that happened to pvp. It actually has chances to become somewhat balanced. But the thing is - most people came to pvp to pwn newbz, and not for balanced pvp.