Thoughts on the T21 set bonuses?

[Occar]

You should look at this instead:

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-...ouped-by-class

And see that DH has the most 110s, yet only has as many doing the lowest end mythic content as a class that only has 2/3 of the players in the best case.

[Measure]

I still just can not get over how this set pretty much forces an entire talent set. It still looks like it's going to remain this way even after what Ion said. I've just never been more disappointed with a set bonus in my 10 years playing this game. Maybe i've never played a class that had a worse bonus but still this has got to be pretty high up there.


Also, inb4 they nerf the set bonus because of m+ Kappa

[prydzz]

I still just can not get over how this set pretty much forces an entire talent set. It still looks like it's going to remain this way even after what Ion said. I've just never been more disappointed with a set bonus in my 10 years playing this game. Maybe i've never played a class that had a worse bonus but still this has got to be pretty high up there.


Also, inb4 they nerf the set bonus because of m+ Kappa

Stop being such an overly dramatic whiny little girl over this. You've never played a class that had a worse set bonus? Really? Lmao.

Ok so a few points.

1. This doesn't force you into doing anything. If you don't like the playstyle or build the class is being directed towards then don't play it. Every spec in the game has set bonuses that are designed to highlight certain abilities or ways of play. It's a fucking set bonus - that's what it does. Sub rogues with t20 should be playing Death from Above over MFD because of the way t20 set bonus augments symbols of death. t20 DH should be playing first blood and spamming blade dance instead of using bloodlet or chaos cleave because the set bonus buffs blade dance and first blood buffs it further. This is literally the whole point of set bonuses. Did you always throw a fit over having to use blade dance in single target situations because that's what the set bonus made optimal? FFS... Oh, and sometimes set bonuses really really really suck - to the point where they're not really even desirable at all. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that this is a case of our set bonuses being so bad that you won't use it and you'll instead just stick to whatever stat-based gear you have?

2. It should be quite obvious to everyone that Blizzard is trying to steer DH away from super almighty insanso burst damage builds. Nerfing trinkets that buffed our mastery, changing the way chaos blades works, now having set bonuses that appear to (at least at face value so far) favor a build that doesn't revolve around huge burst windows and subsequent drop offs in damage. So I am not surprised (or disappointed) in the least about a set bonus that could potentially give a larger damage bonus to demonic builds. In fact... it's probably a good thing for our class as it makes balancing us relative to other dps classes and the wide variety of encounter types much simpler. And I for one would rather be in a position where Blizzard makes balancing changes to our class that allow us to be competitive rather than letting us be garbage in certain areas because they don't know how to balance around us doing so much damage in 12s windows.

3. The bonus doesn't change a single thing about the standard CB raid build. I mean... if there is a hidden nerf in the set bonuses that I didn't see please tell me. I know the bonus list is really long, like 5 words, so I could have missed it. But seriously... CB builds can also use and benefit from this bonus just the same as demonic builds can. Eye beam is part of the core rotation for Demonic, true... but for the standard raid build eye beam is not a substantial DPS loss single target. It's more... DPS neutral than anything. And using it gives you the exact same bonus as it would when playing a demonic build. The only difference is.. you won't be getting to use it as often due to demonic appetite. And seeing how the standard raid build already out performs demonic ST situations I don't see why you're getting so upset over this.

Maybe I'm missing something... but there is a whole lot of whine coming from DHs on something they shouldn't really be whining about. If you're unhappy with where you *think* DHs are going to be at performance-wise relative to other classes... let's talk about that. But whining about this set bonus isn't really something that I see much of a point to.

[Deleted]

Keep the fact that a surprisingly large amount of DH population says they hate demonic/pressing Demon's Bite. Assuming this set goes through, we're looking at 2 potential builds:
Demonic (duh)
Demon Reborn CB with near 100% eb buff uptime during cb.

Also, Demonic is rather bad due to a few bugs that might kill your dps, clunkiness if rng hates you or loves you (being punished by good rng sounds absurd but it's a thing here) and overall massive rng to the point that even dinnerbell cb pales in comparison.

[Njay23]

Stop being such an overly dramatic whiny little girl over this. You've never played a class that had a worse set bonus? Really? Lmao.





In fact... it's probably a good thing for our class as it makes balancing us relative to other dps classes and the wide variety of encounter types much simpler. And I for one would rather be in a position where Blizzard makes balancing changes to our class that allow us to be competitive rather than letting us be garbage in certain areas because they don't know how to balance around us doing so much damage in 12s windows.

.

I like your optimism. But I'm afraid I don't share it. We just went through an entire raid tier in the basement of mythic progression. We lived through the "big changes are coming" debacle, and we've taken nerf after nerf on the chin in pvp despite not being particularly good at that game mode either. So for me, if it sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. We have entered into the Ret Pally/BM Hunter tier where ease of play + popularity = basement. If you are a heroic raider, you don't care about any of this because in short fights, we're actually pretty okayish. If you are the competitive sort, then you either learn to live with being below average or you don't. I believe that Blizzard has shown their hand on DH and this is just the way it's going to be moving forward.

[Tr1n1ty]

Keep the fact that a surprisingly large amount of DH population says they hate demonic/pressing Demon's Bite. Assuming this set goes through, we're looking at 2 potential builds:
Demonic (duh)
Demon Reborn CB with near 100% eb buff uptime during cb.

Also, Demonic is rather bad due to a few bugs that might kill your dps, clunkiness if rng hates you or loves you (being punished by good rng sounds absurd but it's a thing here) and overall massive rng to the point that even dinnerbell cb pales in comparison.

Woud be so easy to solve aswell...just make it so that Demonic Eyebeam always extends the Meta Duration and not only once per Meta...

[Deleted]

Woud be so easy to solve aswell...just make it so that Demonic Eyebeam always extends the Meta Duration and not only once per Meta...

The moment this is fixed another problem rises from the grave - potential 3+ minute constant metas in arcway/seat, especially with the 40% haste bonus.

In general, the set bonus is already hella risky for m+ but if it was any weaker, it'd be trash for raiding. The actual problem is that we're going to have haste value plummet, since there is absolutely 0 benefit to having over 100% haste and we will consistently enter windows of massive haste. And as of right now, if you stacked any gear for raiding you're crit/haste...

As an example, on PTR my dh went from 20% haste to 111% haste after casting eye beam. All that means is even BL will be a marginal dps increase due to faster autos, but in general, 0ish gain if we're in meta with EB buff on (which we should be). Such a U-turn from the chaos blades build which continued to scale over 100% haste, moreso if you used First Blood/Bloodlet.

Of course time will tell if we'll actually play demonic or not.

[Shirofune]

We will play Demonic just because is the only build that beneficts from Eye Beam. Hell, the Meta buff lasts the same as the buff. CB build doesn't even use EB.

It's clear the Tier was made with Demonic on mind.

The issues are still the same. Demonic Appetite is feast or famine. 25% flat chance to proc. I asked in Twitter to WarcraftDevs if it was possible to include DA into the Deck of Cards system, no answer.

Getting 80 souls when you've full fury and 0 when your EB is on CD and you're starved is very healthy design.

[Skayth]

We will play Demonic just because is the only build that beneficts from Eye Beam. Hell, the Meta buff lasts the same as the buff. CB build doesn't even use EB.

It's clear the Tier was made with Demonic on mind.

The issues are still the same. Demonic Appetite is feast or famine. 25% flat chance to proc. I asked in Twitter to WarcraftDevs if it was possible to include DA into the Deck of Cards system, no answer.

Getting 80 souls when you've full fury and 0 when your EB is on CD and you're starved is very healthy design.

Eh, with the "80" souls at full fury, and lets say 5 seconds left on eb cd... you know you want to use those souls... but you dont. Instead, you dump all fury you have, then wait till eb is off cd, then dump fury again... then slightly move to the right or left, pick up all those souls, dump fury again, and if you have souls left and about off cd with eb again, you wait again. Thats how demonic is played, you bank em.

Though, if they had simply made Soul of the slayer give demon blades or demonic appetite talent, we wouldnt be having this discussion at all. It would be the single best leggo we would have. But, nope... 2 blade dance leggos -.-

And cblades can definitely still work, specially with use using demon reborn talent.

[Deleted]

Unless there's a maiden-alike boss, we will play Demonic... Or we will reroll. Just as the main theorycrafters did iirc.
Blizz should take notice and fix a spec if population heavily drops in general, not just for mythic raiding. Unless they plan to come up with yet another 'We don't want you playing demo' for way more specs than in warlords.

That deck of cards is a clever idea, seeing as it stabilizes the output but keeps the rng. That probably won't happen though, class fantasy being a battle to be in control, might as well depict it as being unable to press meaningful buttons for half the fight, right?

[Shirofune]

Eh, with the "80" souls at full fury, and lets say 5 seconds left on eb cd... you know you want to use those souls... but you dont. Instead, you dump all fury you have, then wait till eb is off cd, then dump fury again... then slightly move to the right or left, pick up all those souls, dump fury again, and if you have souls left and about off cd with eb again, you wait again. Thats how demonic is played, you bank em.

Though, if they had simply made Soul of the slayer give demon blades or demonic appetite talent, we wouldnt be having this discussion at all. It would be the single best leggo we would have. But, nope... 2 blade dance leggos -.-

And cblades can definitely still work, specially with use using demon reborn talent.

You bank them as long as possible, and the only realistic situation in which you can bank souls is in the first 10~ seconds of the fight. The moment your fury starts dropping you want to consume them just to lower the EB CD/get fury, even if you know your next EB won't increase your Meta uptime.

The fact is that most of the time you will consume those souls as they spawn.

[Skayth]

You bank them as long as possible, and the only realistic situation in which you can bank souls is in the first 10~ seconds of the fight. The moment your fury starts dropping you want to consume them just to lower the EB CD/get fury, even if you know your next EB won't increase your Meta uptime.

The fact is that most of the time you will consume those souls as they spawn.

Oh that's fairly true. But there is the occasional times you are fury starved and you proc a soul with eyebeam about to come off cd and you save it rather than use it. He'll you might get 2 back to back that way, and I would still save them, rather than use them till after eyebeams fury is gone and then take them. Bad luck is bad luck.

I use demonic on m host and my god, I have fury orbs for days and eyebeams for days that sometimes forces me to wait on meta a good 2 or 3 eyebeams into the fight.

[Tr1n1ty]

The moment this is fixed another problem rises from the grave - potential 3+ minute constant metas in arcway/seat, especially with the 40% haste bonus.

In general, the set bonus is already hella risky for m+ but if it was any weaker, it'd be trash for raiding. The actual problem is that we're going to have haste value plummet, since there is absolutely 0 benefit to having over 100% haste and we will consistently enter windows of massive haste. And as of right now, if you stacked any gear for raiding you're crit/haste...

As an example, on PTR my dh went from 20% haste to 111% haste after casting eye beam. All that means is even BL will be a marginal dps increase due to faster autos, but in general, 0ish gain if we're in meta with EB buff on (which we should be). Such a U-turn from the chaos blades build which continued to scale over 100% haste, moreso if you used First Blood/Bloodlet.

Of course time will tell if we'll actually play demonic or not.

While i can see this happening I don't think it's THAT big of a deal considering the existence of Boomkin/Arms, but yeah that coud be very VERY strong...But with this 2/4pc it's one of the smaller problems imo

[Samuraijake]

I like your optimism. But I'm afraid I don't share it. We just went through an entire raid tier in the basement of mythic progression. We lived through the "big changes are coming" debacle, and we've taken nerf after nerf on the chin in pvp despite not being particularly good at that game mode either. So for me, if it sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. We have entered into the Ret Pally/BM Hunter tier where ease of play + popularity = basement. If you are a heroic raider, you don't care about any of this because in short fights, we're actually pretty okayish. If you are the competitive sort, then you either learn to live with being below average or you don't. I believe that Blizzard has shown their hand on DH and this is just the way it's going to be moving forward.

so... you're the typical brainless skada junkie. gotcha meter padder... understood..

First off.. DH is frequently top dps on ST Mythic goroth, and Mythic Maiden... that being said.. they represent boss damage.

second... raiding environment of all raiding difficulties are a team effort... i.e. ranged dps do things healers do stuff, tanks do things, melee do stuff... its not about you and you doing ALL the damage on ALL the fights... with the theory presented earlier your job as a dh is to eliminate or push down boss damage (since thats what your class excel at) while another section of your team handles other aspects of the fights.

We'll use Mythic Harjatan as an example-
Ranged dps - kill sickly adds
Melee dps - such as yourself push Harjatan / Eggs to prevent wipes and beat enrage times.

but these concepts for raiding are hard for skada junkies to understand... so then they start crying that their class is terrible and doesnt du nothin ever.


P.S. moonkins need a fucking nerf...


Edit: while im here - btw the New tier 21 demonic build is going to do the following.
feast of souls - the lesser souls you will start getting from chaos striking is gonna heal you for 25% of your health constantly which is retardly crazy overpower for self heals.

Netherwalk vs. being able to take Soul rending
-if you dont need netherwalk for certain fights... you can now take soul rending since you'll be in demon form alot from a demonic build... which means you're just going to be a god at survivability from all the 100% demon leeching you'll be doing for 5 minutes straight

With all this eye beaming you'll now be doing... fights with adds or a 2nd boss.. will just be unfair.

god have mercy if you have the leggo head piece by then.

So it looks like this - eye beam is now a *new dps cool down that gives you 40% haste** congrats

Eye beam >> you're a demon now >> 100% leech + 65% haste + annihilation / death sweep congrats.

AND IF YOU STILL DONT LIKE IT... GO FARM ARCWAY/COS for a 2 piece bonus and stfu as you go back to your pathetic chaos blades build.

[prydzz]

I like your optimism. But I'm afraid I don't share it. We just went through an entire raid tier in the basement of mythic progression. We lived through the "big changes are coming" debacle, and we've taken nerf after nerf on the chin in pvp despite not being particularly good at that game mode either. So for me, if it sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. We have entered into the Ret Pally/BM Hunter tier where ease of play + popularity = basement. If you are a heroic raider, you don't care about any of this because in short fights, we're actually pretty okayish. If you are the competitive sort, then you either learn to live with being below average or you don't. I believe that Blizzard has shown their hand on DH and this is just the way it's going to be moving forward.

That's the kind of defeatist attitude that I find offputting, and I see it ALL the time in almost every class's forums. Since this is a DH forum you'd think we were the worst class by leaps and bounds at everything in this game if I went off most of the posts here. I can say from my own experiences raiding through Mythic NH and ToS that isn't the case though. Some specs may certainly be more powerful in some areas than us. Hell, I'd agree with anyone that says Arms or Sub or Affliction is better well rounded than us period. That does not mean that we are bottom of the barrel and entirely undesirable at all though.

Balance is NEVER going to be 100% perfect in this game. As long as you're in a position to be competitive then you should be satisfied. My old guild ran 3 Havoc DH as part of our core up through Mythic Mistress a month or two ago, DPS was never an issue. I orange parsed almost every encounter in Heroic and Mythic... never once did I feel below average or out of place. I was/am first on many encounters. And many encounters I'm 3rd or 5th or 7th. Why do you think we are so important than we should be a lock for the top spot without having to compete for it? There are 24 DPS specs in the game. Are people in this thread really complaining that we are not #1 a majority of the time? Or that we are so bottom of the barrel that we should never be taken to anything? Ay yi yi...

The only thing undesirable are your attitudes. In all seriousness, the only time you have to learn with being below average is when you settle for being below average. Are you orange parsing every encounter as it is right now as a DH? If not, then you're not even at the top of your own class. Focus on that before claiming that we're not in a position to be competitive or useful. Now obviously this changes a little when you're pushing world firsts and everything becomes a game of fractional increases... but I don't think that's you. And it certainly isn't me. I'm just your average heroic/mythic raider that loves his spec including it's shortcomings. I've been able to find success and be competitive at all levels of play. And if I have done that there isn't any reason you or the others on here can't as well.

I do sincerely believe that your doubts about the class are misguided. Focus on improving your own DH gameplay. Every time you log in, every time you go to a raid or a m+... focus on doing one thing a little bit better than you did last time. Review your logs, talk to people doing something better than you, and make adjustments. It doesn't happen overnight but it does happen. If you're willing to put in the work to get better, you will get better. This class isn't brokenly overpowered default easy-mode #1... but no class is or should be. We have the tools to be competitive in almost any situation providing you use them correctly. And if that answer isn't acceptable, and you can't live with the knowledge of knowing that the single highest #1 DH parse is less than that of another classes... this isn't the game for you.

This wasn't targeted directly at you Njay, just in general towards that line of thinking pervasive among the DH community.

It's one thing to complain or reroll or whatever because you do not enjoy the playstyle. That's fair. It's another thing entirely to do the same on the grounds that one thinks we're too weak or undesirable.

[DemonHunter18]

I don't like it.

I will skip the raids with DH.

Lock is my main now.

[Deleted]

so... you're the typical brainless skada junkie. gotcha meter padder... understood..

First off.. DH is frequently top dps on ST Mythic goroth, and Mythic Maiden... that being said.. they represent boss damage.

second... raiding environment of all raiding difficulties are a team effort... i.e. ranged dps do things healers do stuff, tanks do things, melee do stuff... its not about you and you doing ALL the damage on ALL the fights... with the theory presented earlier your job as a dh is to eliminate or push down boss damage (since thats what your class excel at) while another section of your team handles other aspects of the fights.

We'll use Mythic Harjatan as an example-
Ranged dps - kill sickly adds
Melee dps - such as yourself push Harjatan / Eggs to prevent wipes and beat enrage times.

but these concepts for raiding are hard for skada junkies to understand... so then they start crying that their class is terrible and doesnt du nothin ever.


P.S. moonkins need a fucking nerf...


Edit: while im here - btw the New tier 21 demonic build is going to do the following.
feast of souls - the lesser souls you will start getting from chaos striking is gonna heal you for 25% of your health constantly which is retardly crazy overpower for self heals.

Netherwalk vs. being able to take Soul rending
-if you dont need netherwalk for certain fights... you can now take soul rending since you'll be in demon form alot from a demonic build... which means you're just going to be a god at survivability from all the 100% demon leeching you'll be doing for 5 minutes straight

With all this eye beaming you'll now be doing... fights with adds or a 2nd boss.. will just be unfair.

god have mercy if you have the leggo head piece by then.

So it looks like this - eye beam is now a *new dps cool down that gives you 40% haste** congrats

Eye beam >> you're a demon now >> 100% leech + 65% haste + annihilation / death sweep congrats.

AND IF YOU STILL DONT LIKE IT... GO FARM ARCWAY/COS for a 2 piece bonus and stfu as you go back to your pathetic chaos blades build.

First off, congrats. I thought we DH mains were the edgiest you can get, but you outedged us all.

And now, let's break your points one by one.

Meter whoring is, as far as I know, inexistent in ToS because there's nothing you can deliberately spawn/keep alive to increase your dps as everything has to die asap.
DH started topping Goroth after months of farm because the fight got short enough to make the initial burst count. As for Maiden, gee, I wonder why a class that stacks CDs to deal triple to quarduple damage compared to itself out of these windows would top the meters on a fight that slaps yet another, short +100% damage buff.

The team effort, true, damage being split in roles, mostly false. Everyone should optimize their DPS, including tanks and healers, and it just kills a person inside when you see some classes just dead last, be it poor tuning or lack of an important ability. Outlaw rogue in general, havoc's cleave, shadow's lack of burst, you name it.

Yeah, boomies should be brought in line, your point?

As for demonic's mechanics:
Lesser souls heal for 10%, not 25%.
Healing through demonform is insignificant most of the time, as most mechanics on progress are plain oneshots.

Unfair aoe? Dude, right now a full eyebeam, perfectly placed foti, death sweep and fel rush coupled with an Inner Demons proc, all of them critting nicely, just might deal comparable damage to a bladestorm. Might. What evidence do we have that AoE will be unfair, especially that we'll be using our aoe on ST so it might not be ready for an add spawn due to rng cooldown reduction? Especially given thay council fights have moved towards 40yd+ split or wipe.

Haste isn't additive, the actual haste gained from 0% will be 75%. At 15% base haste T21 Eye Beam with demonic puts you at 100%. And here's the problem: Haste coupled with bad generation means nothing. To get Demonic Appetite, we need to stop using Demon Blades. If we do, we can't generate off-GCD. Not generating off GCD and bad luck with crits? Get dry in 2 seconds and start spamming that 200k damage generator. Aww yiss.

So all T21 does is make us wish we could have both or get a buff to our spenders/generation (LOL, as if it's gonna happen pre-8.0).

And arcway/cos set is actually stronger for Demonic since Chaos Blades rework, but both pieces have haste. Any haste above 100% means 0ish dps gain and a definite 0 generation gain without Demon Blades. So, yeah.

[HeiAggra]

First off, congrats. I thought we DH mains were the edgiest you can get, but you outedged us all.

And now, let's break your points one by one.

Meter whoring is, as far as I know, inexistent in ToS because there's nothing you can deliberately spawn/keep alive to increase your dps as everything has to die asap.
DH started topping Goroth after months of farm because the fight got short enough to make the initial burst count. As for Maiden, gee, I wonder why a class that stacks CDs to deal triple to quarduple damage compared to itself out of these windows would top the meters on a fight that slaps yet another, short +100% damage buff.

The team effort, true, damage being split in roles, mostly false. Everyone should optimize their DPS, including tanks and healers, and it just kills a person inside when you see some classes just dead last, be it poor tuning or lack of an important ability. Outlaw rogue in general, havoc's cleave, shadow's lack of burst, you name it.

Yeah, boomies should be brought in line, your point?

As for demonic's mechanics:
Lesser souls heal for 10%, not 25%.
Healing through demonform is insignificant most of the time, as most mechanics on progress are plain oneshots.

Unfair aoe? Dude, right now a full eyebeam, perfectly placed foti, death sweep and fel rush coupled with an Inner Demons proc, all of them critting nicely, just might deal comparable damage to a bladestorm. Might. What evidence do we have that AoE will be unfair, especially that we'll be using our aoe on ST so it might not be ready for an add spawn due to rng cooldown reduction? Especially given thay council fights have moved towards 40yd+ split or wipe.

Haste isn't additive, the actual haste gained from 0% will be 75%. At 15% base haste T21 Eye Beam with demonic puts you at 100%. And here's the problem: Haste coupled with bad generation means nothing. To get Demonic Appetite, we need to stop using Demon Blades. If we do, we can't generate off-GCD. Not generating off GCD and bad luck with crits? Get dry in 2 seconds and start spamming that 200k damage generator. Aww yiss.

So all T21 does is make us wish we could have both or get a buff to our spenders/generation (LOL, as if it's gonna happen pre-8.0).

And arcway/cos set is actually stronger for Demonic since Chaos Blades rework, but both pieces have haste. Any haste above 100% means 0ish dps gain and a definite 0 generation gain without Demon Blades. So, yeah.

Trully nice post about the changes, the only thing i think it would help us would be DB being a core ability and when we would pick the demonic talent it would give us the 25% change to spawn souls by default.
This would open a slot for a new talent so they could make something new and nice.

[Samuraijake]

Meter whoring is, as far as I know, inexistent in ToS because there's nothing you can deliberately spawn/keep alive to increase your dps as everything has to die asap..

this chick so dumb, M Demonic inquisition has adds you can spawn, and M Mistress has adds that you SHOULD NOT KILL right away... im gettin tired of these 8/9 normal mode raiders thinking they know stuff.

and standing in fire, not taking meteors out of the raid, or failing to STOP dps to avoid boss pushes are multiforms of meter paddin... get out of here. this is why we should not sell AoTC to these folks

[Deleted]

this chick so dumb, M Demonic inquisition has adds you can spawn, and M Mistress has adds that you SHOULD NOT KILL right away... im gettin tired of these 8/9 normal mode raiders thinking they know stuff.

and standing in fire, not taking meteors out of the raid, or failing to STOP dps to avoid boss pushes are multiforms of meter paddin... get out of here. this is why we should not sell AoTC to these folks

Get dunked on basically all fronts, proceed to shit on me for one unclear assessment. Thanks for conceding, by the way.

Deliberately spawning DI adds to increase your dps when the entire port sequence loses you more dps than any cleave you'll be doing, that's nothing but a fucking waste of time.

Yeah, M mistress, last time I checked the switch was needed right away 'cause the dps wasn't there, then again it was early July and my guild wasn't a top one either.

The rest of your points are either a case of basic positioning or just fucking a mechanic up.
I still await a single point of yours that can't be debunked and is objectively true.

By the way, if you wanna measure dicks so badly, EN, ToV and NH Cutting Edge here + 2k+ arena rating. Where does that put you, wannabe mythic raider?