Are barriers to mythic raiding worth it?

[shaunika123]

Not worth it. People have lives and committing to a video game schedule is unacceptable for most of us.

that's your decision. you dont have to commit to anything, the game has plenty of stuff to do outside of mythic raiding

[Tennis]

that's your decision. you dont have to commit to anything, the game has plenty of stuff to do outside of mythic raiding

Thread is about mythic raiding though which is the draw for many people. Sadly most guilds require a strict video game schedule and this explains the falling sub count.

[Lilija]

They've explained that they cannot do flex at the highest difficulty because that would be a balancing hell as the fight will change depending on the amount of people and raiding groups would abuse it.

As for no xrealm I don't fully understand the reason and I would personally welcome a change that would make all content xrealm. Reamls are a thing of a past.

[vsb]

This is a single reason I'm not making my own guild and instead playing with other people. I have around 10 friends, we would like to play together (and we did in Cata), but I'm not going to get another 10 strangers just because of mythic requirements. And raiding without mythic doesn't make much sense, it's just too easy. So ideal situation for me would be either bumping heroic difficulty significantly (may be not exactly to current mythic, but something that we could progress through for few monthes) or restrict mythic requirements (for example after some time when race is over and the balance doesn't matter that much).

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They've explained that they cannot do flex at the highest difficulty because that would be a balancing hell as the fight will change depending on the amount of people and raiding groups would abuse it.

As for no xrealm I don't fully understand the reason and I would personally welcome a change that would make all content xrealm. Reamls are a thing of a past.

They could allow flex after a month (or something like 1 boss/week). Those who care about balance would have plenty of time to progress and those who care about fun will have their fun.

[shaunika123]

Thread is about mythic raiding though which is the draw for many people. Sadly most guilds require a strict video game schedule and this explains the falling sub count.

if you want to do ANYTHING(literally anything in the entire world) at the highest level, you have to commit to it. that's just how the world works

why should wow be different?

if you cant commit to a guild schedule for mythic then you still got 3 other difficulties left, not everything is for everyone

[Deleted]

if you want to raid mythic, you raid mythic.

if you have to change server, you change the server.
the barrier of not getting enough players isnt really there.
the barrier is more of a "get ppl who do play good and not only think they are good"

oh and get a raidleader, who doesnt look for specific classes because they are op.
if you dont go for high end mythic progress, you can clear all the raids with the classes you want to play.

the bigger issue is tbh: find ppl who know what they can do instead of them thinking what they might be able to do!

[Lilija]

They could allow flex after a month (or something like 1 boss/week). Those who care about balance would have plenty of time to progress and those who care about fun will have their fun.

Everyone in mythic raiding care about balance - even when they are killing bosses week before next content.

[KaPe]

As for no xrealm I don't fully understand the reason and I would personally welcome a change that would make all content xrealm. Reamls are a thing of a past.

The reason is "Mythic raiders are the ones crazy enough to transfer entire guilds across realms, change factions, boost alts and make us a lot of money on a service that's otherwise a novelty and would be pointless with cross realm raiding."

It is a borderline conspiracy theory, but makes about as much sense as any other narrative they might be trying to sell. (hah, "sell")

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

So is your solution solo mode?

Because building and maintaining a 20 person team will still be a challenge with cross-realm guilds or mythics.
Building and maintaining a 10 person team would be easier.
A 5 person team, even easier.
Or better yet, a solo team, because it's easier.

At some point, Blizzard has to say "We WANT it to be this difficult." They drew the line at same-server, 20 person raids. Really, this number is arbitrary in terms of the mechanics of the fight since they build the fight around the number, but the solution isn't "Make pugging easier." They don't want it to be pugged.

If I was confident I had solutions, I would have offered them already. I am entirely open to the possibility that we live in the best possible mythic raiding world and no changes would make things any better. My post originated from the following observations:

• Lots of guilds clear H early in a tier, without ever solidifying 20 members for M.
• Lots of great players in smaller guilds with friends, including RL friends, that are absolutely capable of raiding M successfully if not for the 20-gate to get in.
• Dissonance, sometimes even drama, in guilds that were otherwise happy but see no route for progression.
• Other content, like high M+ keys, that is popular in part because it offers challenge without the same gating.
• Lots of players who enjoy raiding but liken sitting in Dal spamming trade chat for recruiting to a visit to dentist office.

I think most of us agree that M should be challenging, but is finding and maintaining the 20 a fun part of the challenge? Maybe so, if you have been successful at it. Is it fun enough to make up for all the tension it creates in smaller guilds (which is probably 90% of guild that cleared H)? i.e., is it worth it?

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As for balance - sorry can't resist - are we talking about the kind of balance where all tank specs are equally survivable, all dps specs can do similar numbers, and all classes are equally capable of cheesing mechanics? Or the balance where all bosses are properly tuned when WF race begins?

[Deleted]

I think those 'barriers' do have a point, it helps guild cohesion, makes you feel more part of a team when you're actually guilded and grouped with the same group all the time rather than having the possibility to hop from group to group on every other boss (mythic lockout vs heroic lockout), etc.

What I think is ridiculous and acts as a real nonsensical barrier is the pricing of char services, they're the price you'd expect for a full class change or some ridiculous thing like that, not a mere server change. The price is simply too steep to consider transferring unless you have a very, very specific guild in mind, and that means that when guilds die, a lot of players will never resume raiding again and just quit.

Pricing those services at a much more reasonable price would not suddenly revivify the raiding scene or anything, but would at least help stop the bleeding. I mean if, let's say, my guild died tomorrow, then I would certainly not xfer anywhere to keep playing. Let alone xferring main+2 alts or whatever any potential new guild might be demanding of me.

[Arbs]

Too many people confuse wanting to mythic raid with being able to mythic raid.

Well said here

[vsb]

Everyone in mythic raiding care about balance - even when they are killing bosses week before next content.

I'm mythic raider and I don't care about balance. All I care about is fun. I would take slightly unbalanced flexible raid over fixed 20-man any day.

[Deleted]

Too much effort for lesser rewards. I know plenty of people above mythic drop ilvl who haven't set foot into mythic ToS.They need to remove titan-forging and RNG legendary items next expansion if they want more participation.

People like prestige, they like their power-level being above others and that just doesn't happen anymore when you can do a faceroll +10 every week or HC ToS and get an item ABOVE mythic ToS ilvl.

The item level on a item should be proportional to the difficulty of the content. A +10/15 should never give a higher ilvl item over a mythic raid. It is less time consuming, less difficult, and it is easier to find people to do it since you only need five.

[D3athsting]

No flex, no cross-realm... Yeah, I get that there are reasons for both, but are they worth the difficulty they create for guilds wishing to participate in mythic raiding? How many guilds cleared H weeks ago and are skilled enough to do mythic mechanics, but can't consistently pull the numbers together? Should otherwise happy guilds be pressured to merge/break up/have drama because H has become passé but M feels out of reach?

If they did decide to change some part of this equation, what should it be?

I'm in the situation you described and it's quite sad, most ppl have frozen during summer (no pun intended) and there aren't enough ppl for M even if we clear hc in 2 hours, recruiting only brings crap players (e.g. ppl without dbm) and merging by either creating a new guild or with ppl from a guild mass joining another causes a lot of drama because of officer/gm who will lose their charge, players attached to that guild name etc...
I'm not saying this kind of things never happened before, but in cata/mop when numbers didn't allow 25man you could say "fuck it we go 10 man", now all you can say is "fuck it we're fucked!"
Blizz must realise that wotlk era with 12M subs is over since cata, servers are dead (have you tried doing a greater invasion boss at 1-2 a.m. cet? it's hard to find a single group...) and if you can't do M raid because of number M+ is the only form of competitive end game available, so if you don't like M+ you can just log in on wednesday, clear hc tos do your weekly +10 and say "bb, cya next reset"

On a side note: i don't want flex M since flex barely works on hc unless you overgear content (30 man is a total mess on many bosses), i just want 10 man back

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Everyone saying flex would be too hard to balance: are you saying then that H is not balanced now? Is it somehow harder to balance M than H?

Heroic is balanced like ass, 10 man kj is terrible when mind controls and armageddon overlap, 20 man is a joke

[Trend]

Everyone saying flex would be too hard to balance: are you saying then that H is not balanced now? Is it somehow harder to balance M than H?

Heroic is not balanced but nobody cares. Almost nobody spends the time or effort to hit the ideal raid size breakpoints for Heroic because ... well, it's Heroic. If Mythic flexed, for any of the bosses that take move than 50 pulls, you would be "forced" to have the most ideal raid size for the encounter because there are inherently imbalances with a raid flex. And IMO, it would be particular bad because the ideal raid size wouldn't even be the same for each boss as it would depend on how the breakpoints affected that particular boss's mechanics.

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Too much effort for lesser rewards. I know plenty of people above mythic drop ilvl who haven't set foot into mythic ToS.They need to remove titan-forging and RNG legendary items next expansion if they want more participation.

People like prestige, they like their power-level being above others and that just doesn't happen anymore when you can do a faceroll +10 every week or HC ToS and get an item ABOVE mythic ToS ilvl.

The item level on a item should be proportional to the difficulty of the content. A +10/15 should never give a higher ilvl item over a mythic raid. It is less time consuming, less difficult, and it is easier to find people to do it since you only need five.

Ilvl is a guide, not the end goal. The person with the tier sets is going to have significantly better performance potential than the Ilvl chaser. If ilvl chasers are not doing mythic raiding that's fine by me. Those tend to be the people I wouldn't want to raid with anyway ... all about their shiny loots.

[Lilija]

I'm mythic raider and I don't care about balance. All I care about is fun. I would take slightly unbalanced flexible raid over fixed 20-man any day.

Ok, my bad, not everyone. But still there are people who care about balance because lack of balance in top difficulty leads to a whole loads of issues. We've been thru 10 vs 25 enough already.

[Umbrex]

hahahahaaagahagaa

have u tried LFR version of prev mythic raids?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

WHAT IF... They got rid of flex H? Yeah it would cause short term disruption, but players would eventually settle into guilds with 20 teams - i.e., fewer guilds but bigger raid teams - so they wouldn't clear H and be stuck.

Trying to envision a game where clearing the instance on one difficulty would naturally lead to starting it on the next, without having to leave/break up guilds to do it.

[Umbrex]

WHAT IF... They got rid of flex H? Yeah it would cause short term disruption, but players would eventually settle into guilds with 20 teams - i.e., fewer guilds but bigger raid teams - so they wouldn't clear H and be stuck.

Trying to envision a game where clearing the instance on one difficulty would naturally lead to starting it on the next, without having to leave/break up guilds to do it.

"let's not only break mythic guilds with the cancer of attendance problems, let's spread it to heroic as well"

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

"let's not only break mythic guilds with the cancer of attendance problems, let's spread it to heroic as well"

It would break some H guilds in the beginning, but it would cauterize the wound. After the fallout, the guilds that emerged would be able to attempt all difficulties rather than clearing one and getting stuck outside the next. My thought here - and that's all it is, a thought - is that our primary problem atm is guilds clearing one difficulty early in a tier and being stuck for months without a next difficulty to try. This results in ongoing disruption, when maybe it would be better to fix it once and have a more peaceful situation moving forward.