High elves on the alliance?

[Enkrypt]

Yeah, because it's a huge leap of logic to think that Alleria + high elves = void elves.

No, it's grasping at straws. That's not logic.

To go from a datamined file about a "Voidelf" to the position of saying "High Elves will be a playable race for the Alliance" is, as you said, a huge [and false] leap. Especially one for an OP going around screaming like he's 9 years old and telling people they're "making something out of nothing".

Gonna move your goal posts more?

[Fyersing]

Except the original source about the percentages was explicitly about those not being present being in the 10% from the get go.

As a curiosity, are you referring to the post(s) by Caydiem or Lands of Conflict from the Warcraft RPG?

I only ask because it doesn't matter how explicit it's spelled out in the latter, because it's non-canon, and the former doesn't seem to include any percentages at all that I've been able to find. Just trying to glean how much of the situation is legitimately backed by actual canonical information.

Edit: I actually just went back and read one of the things you cited, but it didn't actually provide any answers.

Anyway, from Warcraft Encyclopedia:
"Prince Kael'thas returned home and rallied all the survivors he could find: approximately 90% of the surviving high elves. He declared that these survivors would now bear a new name--the blood elves--in honor of their fallen people. The blood elves no longer consider themselves high elves, and they have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred."

Emphasis mine.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this excerpt explicitly avoid providing a number for how many High Elves survived the Sacking of Quel'thalas? As far as I can tell, it merely states that of those that did survive (which is left as a mystery) nearly 90% of them agreed to rebrand themselves as Blood Elves -- which means that the other 10% disagreed and went their own ways, otherwise continuing as High Elves. Is this not a proper interpretation of the language of that text?

It doesn't really matter one way or the other, come Friday, I suppose. :P

[Mehrunes]

First off, I bolded the parts that show how unaccurate is this info.

Which still isn't the point. But still, that leaves approximately 10% of approximately 10% survivors being High Elves.

Second, this text does not count all the then-blood elves that would later rebel and/or be exiled once Rommath returned with the captured M'uru and started changing thalassian society, which was the real moment when blood and high elves split off.
The elves of Quel'lithien are an example, as you can see in In the Shadow of the Sun. Many high elves left thinking Kael was a hero and expecting his return, while they saw Rommath and Lor'themar as the true culprits of changing their society.

This on the other hand is exactly the point I made in my first reply to you in this exchange...

In essence, almost 90% of the kingdom's population was killed, so total surviving elves are more than 10%
Then, almost 90% of the survivors were rallied. So blood elves are not exactly 9% of the original population.

Approximately doesn't mean almost... It could be less than 10% just as well.

So, I've read a bit since my last post here, and it seems like this entire argument mostly consists of High Elf supporters making over-the-top exaggerations and crazy leaps of logic, and detractors constantly moving goalposts and discounting any evidence that doesn't support their constructed narrative.

What goalpost moving? And what evidence? The only real evidence of potential High Elves is the change in the data files, nothing more. Anything else doesn't meet the criteria of evidence. They are merely arguments. And not being grounded in actual evidence, are dismissable with counter arguments if one does not agree.

That population numbers argument really needs to go away. I can go to my class order hall and see 100 people waving around the goddamn Ashbringer - Blizzard's not gonna deny a playstyle or customization cos there are 'only' 1500 people doing it lorewise. Seeing the same nonsense over and over can get irksome, so I'm beginning to understand why so many detractors just see red as soon as anyone types 'High Elves'

But High Elves aren't Ashbringer. There is only one Ashbringer in lore, there is only one player character in lore. A race requires NPCs. Yet basically all current High Elf NPCs are military. Blizzard making them an actual race rather than a bunch of disparate ragtag military groups requires some civilians to support the military in order to make the shift plausible. Which, in this case, requires conjuring those civilians out of thin air.

There are a lot of nonsensical and petty arguments against High Elves, and one very good argument - population balance. Whenever someone polls prospective playable races, High Elves always come out on top (or 2nd to 'subraces'). Introducing them would absolutely lopside player numbers in favor of the Alliance. The only way I could see them happening is if they were offset by another race so desirable on Horde that it would draw players across the game to it, or if they eliminated the faction divide as gameplay and allowed cross-faction grouping and mercenary world pvp.

The one good argument is unrepresentative polls of few hundreds out of few thousands of active posters voting on a forum? I agree faction balance is a factor (though @Serenais made good arguments as to why the introduction of High Elves doesn't have to lead to a repeat of faction balance shifts like that caused by the initial introduction of the Blood Elves), but the way you supported it is rather weird.

Emphasis mine.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this excerpt explicitly avoid providing a number for how many High Elves survived the Sacking of Quel'thalas? As far as I can tell, it merely states that of those that did survive (which is left as a mystery) nearly 90% of them agreed to rebrand themselves as Blood Elves -- which means that the other 10% disagreed and went their own ways, otherwise continuing as High Elves. Is this not a proper interpretation of the language of that text?

It doesn't really matter one way or the other, come Friday, I suppose. :P

Unless the High Elves that were away during the Scourge invasion mysteriously died during that time period and were even more mysteriously resurrected only after the time period covered by Encyclopedia, they are still surviving High Elves. And nothing in that quote says about anyone disagreeing or leaving. All of the Elves Kael found were rebranded Blood Elves.

[Fyersing]

Unless the High Elves that were away during the Scourge invasion mysteriously died during that time period and were even more mysteriously resurrected only after the time period covered by Encyclopedia, they are still surviving High Elves. And nothing in that quote says about anyone disagreeing or leaving. All of the Elves Kael found were rebranded Blood Elves.

Right, but the excerpt you actually provided specifically says he went home (i.e. to Quel'thalas) and rounded up all the survivors he could -- "approximately 90% of the surviving High Elves". It's absolutely possible that this is meant to be interpreted exactly as it's written, without utilizing any previously released information on the subject (i.e. Lands of Conflict), which could then suggest the anecdote is explicitly referring to the individuals who actually survived (see. those who were present at the time of the actual event) the Sacking of Quel'thalas and not all of their species, globally.

I don't really care either way because it's Blizzard and, well, they'll do them -- just a curiosity that so many posters who believe their position infallible have built their arguments around ambiguities or now de-canonized material.

[Theodarzna]

Right, but the excerpt you actually provided specifically says he went home (i.e. to Quel'thalas) and rounded up all the survivors he could -- "approximately 90% of the surviving High Elves". It's absolutely possible that this is meant to be interpreted exactly as it's written, without utilizing any previously released information on the subject (i.e. Lands of Conflict), which could then suggest the anecdote is explicitly referring to the individuals who actually survived (see. those who were present at the time of the actual event) the Sacking of Quel'thalas and not all of their species, globally.

I don't really care either way because it's Blizzard and, well, they'll do them -- just a curiosity that so many posters who believe their position infallible have built their arguments around ambiguities or now de-canonized material.

Blizzard has rule zero here, however they may wish to introduce High Elves they can, be it an instanced variant of say Outland via Alleria Hold, or just simply have High Elves use the Human starting zone.

[DeicideUH]

Approximately doesn't mean almost... It could be less than 10% just as well.

But that's the point: the numbers can change in a whim. Blizzard wants to use high elves, they can double or even triple their population without much effort.

A race requires NPCs. Yet basically all current High Elf NPCs are military. Blizzard making them an actual race rather than a bunch of disparate ragtag military groups requires some civilians to support the military in order to make the shift plausible. Which, in this case, requires conjuring those civilians out of thin air.

They have NPCs. And there are civilians all over Dalaran, just take a stride there and watch the civilians in the shops.
And the reason we don't see a lot of them is because they are rare.
No one is asking to have a full high elven city appear out of nowhere.
The fact that most high elves that appear are military just gives more reason to make them playable, since the player is a hero in military service.

The one good argument is unrepresentative polls of few hundreds out of few thousands of active posters voting on a forum? I agree faction balance is a factor (though @Serenais made good arguments as to why the introduction of High Elves doesn't have to lead to a repeat of faction balance shifts like that caused by the initial introduction of the Blood Elves), but the way you supported it is rather weird.

Unless the High Elves that were away during the Scourge invasion mysteriously died during that time period and were even more mysteriously resurrected only after the time period covered by Encyclopedia, they are still surviving High Elves. And nothing in that quote says about anyone disagreeing or leaving. All of the Elves Kael found were rebranded Blood Elves.

Uh?

Usually, when you say "survivors", it means among those that were threatened by the event that killed people.
When Blizzard says: "90% of the surviving high elves", it can interpreted both ways: 90% of total high elven population everywhere, or 90% of high elven population that survived the Scourge attack. It's ambiguous, and that ambiguity is left on purpose, so that lore can be clarified when they need, in the way they need.

Blizzard retconned things so many times in the past, some of them in ways far more absurd than what's being suggested here. Do I need to remind you that the Draenei were a huge retcon done just to justify a playable eredar race? That anyone surviving the Scourge in QUel'thalas was actually a retcon as well? (Check out the in-game lore books on the invasion, that state, literally, that no elf survived the invasion!) Or that Goblins were meant to be neutral at one point and worgens were feral?

That's why using numbers as argument is meaningless. Blizzard can suddenly say that Kul Tiras had a major high elven population and suddenly their numbers just explode. Would it be dumb and unsubtle? Yes, but they'll do it in a whim if they feel it's good for the game (and their pockets).

[Lumineus]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this excerpt explicitly avoid providing a number for how many High Elves survived the Sacking of Quel'thalas? As far as I can tell, it merely states that of those that did survive (which is left as a mystery) nearly 90% of them agreed to rebrand themselves as Blood Elves -- which means that the other 10% disagreed and went their own ways, otherwise continuing as High Elves. Is this not a proper interpretation of the language of that text?

It's also important to note the fact that immediately afterwards Kael launched a series of two disastrous campaigns against first the Scourge, and then the combined might of the Alliance and Horde, and in between those a bunch of them turned Wretched* and Lor'themar kicked a bunch more out of Silvermoon for conscientious objection to Kael's plans. Ultimately, it's probably closer to 50% vs 15%. Which, if the entirety of the High Elves were military, would explain why we see just as many on the battlefield as Blood Elf NPCs, who still have the luxury of a civilian population.

*You know, either way they end up going with it, if you had a powerful transformative plot device like, say, void energy this might be a good place to find recruits.

[Syegfryed]

This isn't really indicative of anything, considering the Thalassians also warred with them (Trolls) for like 10,000 years.

and? those trolls are amani, not gurubashi

The morphological distinctions between Darnassians and Thalassians are size, shape and color.
The morphological distinctions between Forrest Trolls and Jungle Trolls are size, shape and color.

Doesn't seem to be a reach to me.

not rly, its just color, the matter is, blizzard only show the darkspear as skinny, they never show the berserk, the big ones, like in warcraft 3, and (almost) always show the forest trolls as big and bulky like the berserkers

[Friendlyimmolation]

and? those trolls are amani, not gurubashi



not rly, its just color, the matter is, blizzard only show the darkspear as skinny, they never show the berserk, the big ones, like in warcraft 3, and (almost) always show the forest trolls as big and bulky like the berserkers

You are missing the point, it would have made since if say, the trolls in Quel'thalas ended up trying to join the Alliance because of their sheer hatred of the horde, betrayed once by blackhand, and then they let the elves into the Horde they promised to help kill.

[Syegfryed]

You are missing the point, it would have made since if say, the trolls in Quel'thalas ended up trying to join the Alliance because of their sheer hatred of the horde, betrayed once by blackhand, and then they let the elves into the Horde they promised to help kill.

sure, but the thing is, the amani are enemy of both elves and the humans, can't see they joining the humans, or humans accepting then. they are not that smart so they would try to kill both like they did before

[Friendlyimmolation]

sure, but the thing is, the amani are enemy of both elves and the humans, can't see they joining the humans, or humans accepting then. they are not that smart so they would try to kill both like they did before

That is unless the human's exploited their blistering anger. Obviously the alliance wouldn't be that strong but neither was the blood elf's allegiance till the Horde till much later. Obviously it isn't/ wasn't a strong chance, but it could have happened with a slim chance.

[Magnagarde]

When the leaks die down, you can always count on the high elves to provide you with some forum edge.

Blizzard knew very well what they're doing when they inserted that data. This is the hottest pre-Blizzacon subject at the moment.

[Zulkhan]

Contrary to the popular belief of people in this forum like zulkhan, I really couldn't care less whether they are added or not.

And unlike what you believe, I give two shits about what you care or don't care. Your attitude speaks louder than your empty words. You proved which kind of poster you are already. Hell, it's you that kept calling me by name and throwing slanders on my direction even though no one addressed you specifically at the beginning. You were simply triggered by my posts and started to discredit me to others.

For that mere suggestion they bloodlust and attack anyone who gives completely legitimate reasons why they are in fact possible, because its not what they want.

And I give legitimate reasons for why they're not that possible as you believe. Terrible, I know. Also, show me these horrific "attacks" I made to individual posters because I don't recall any. On the other hand, I remember you mounting constant and repeated personal attacks towards specific posters. In other words, stick your eyes on the mirror before speaking horseshit.

They are absolutists. All or nothing.

When it comes to High Elves, you either add them or not. So yes, the nature of the topic itself it's kind of absolutist (unless we're talking of modified/transformed High Elves but that would deviate on a different path).

I understand that there are also good reasons also to not give them to the Alliance

It's that why you constantly act pissed at people instead of just, you know, sit down and discuss politely?

They deny there is any good reason at all to add them.

Not my fault if the reasons given never convinced me, ever. One has always been more reaching than the other, outright incorrect or relying on headcanon, let alone the simple denial towards the fact that High Elves are, by all means, blue-eyed Blood Elves. At the very most, I can argue that a few arguments against High Elves are weaker than others, like the matter about numbers and population. On the other hand, it's the very way the lore treats High Elves that implies and stresses not only little numbers but a structural lack of unity, purpose and leadership in them. And that's an issue no existing playable race share.

In other words, they are unable to be objective.

Said the guy who deems the Blood Elf inclusion into the Horde a "retcon" without even understanding what retcon means. Your willingness to see High Elves playable isn't definitely tied to that petty denial in any way, sure thing.

You've clearly only played WoW if you say that. No one who played WC2 or WC3 would or could "knowingly" proclaim Blood Elves would join the Horde. That is just blatantly inaccurate. It was the Alliance campaign for the Frozen Throne and they had no friendly relations at all with the Horde. If you could conclude anything at all, it was that the Blood Elves were all alone. Now I know you're trolling.

It doesn't matter if they had friendly relationships with the Horde or not, it matters how dire the relationship with the Alliance became. That gave birth to a whole plethora of possibilities. Joining the Horde was one of them.

Classic "I don't want it to happen, so it shouldn't happen!" type thinking. It has nothing to do with stasis. It has to do with having a cohesive storyline that makes sense.

Except it makes sense. It's the opposite here, is you who outright refuses something that makes sense simply because you don't like it.

This thread is so tiresome. I tried to put some constructive feedback/predictions a few pages back, but seems no one cares to really discuss the possibilities. Instead, it's pro-high elves people just assuming void elves will be something horrible they won't want, and anti-high elves people wishing void elves to be ugly withered shadowy aberrations with tentacles just to spite high elf fans.

So suggesting High Elves should change, become something different, new, independent, capable to stand on their own legs instead of leeching lore from their Blood Elf cousins and so able to justify a playable spot means being anti-High Elf? I mean, you could take it that way but if that was the case I would just support the idea of having all of them dead (something that wouldn't take long to achieve, at this point).

I don't care if it's something that has tentacles or teddy bears attached on the body, it has to be something truly unique and truly new. And no, desiring that isn't tied to a single-minded desire to spite pro-High Elf people (it would be a bonus at most but not the main reason for sure) it's tied to the desire of seeing the introduction of a playable race that is more than "worse Blood Elves" whose most interesting trait is the nostalgia over old themes their presence in the Alliance raises within nostalgic people.

Wait... isn't that what they did when they gave Blood Elves to the Horde in Burning Crusade?

You don't get it, don't you? Horde players never demanded Blood Elves. Adding them was a decision of Blizzard for their own reasons.

You're giving them way too much credit. They were simply blindly parroting word for word an earlier shitpost by @Keihndeth, not expressing a thought of their own.

It seemed so but again, lack of self-awareness is king. Parroting simply makes it worse.

They are on the same side (and the same kind of a headcasecanon peddler) as them, so none of that matters. What matters is that they can share in each other's victim complex about people not pandering to their fanfiction and that they can reassure each other how amazing their points are. Zulkan, please, this isn't the first time it has ever happened.

Even if I was on the same side myself I would still bet on a more reliable horse than @The Iron Fist. Guess it's either desperation or someone here is a terrible wagerer.

Too complicated, you already lost them. So something something Sylvanas fanboy!

I may have chosen the wrong approach. True rational people throw slanders, personal attacks and silence/ignore people. My bad, I'll try to get better at that.

Top not enjoyment right there <.<

My use of the word "enjoyment" was all but genuine, to be blunt. But I'm sure you guessed that.

I list sources

You list sources and interpret them the way it better fits your narrative, deliberately ignoring the fallacies of such interpretations because is convenient to you. See, there's a difference.

You assume it would be a copy/paste, which even if they did decide to do it, it most assuredly would not be.

They would be a copy/past because High Elves are a copy/paste. If you want them different you have to make them different and for real, no shitty and deceiving tricks like giving High Elves a new model just because they're called "High Elves" even though they looked exactly like Blood Elves just until yesterday, just to make them playable and with zero reflection on the lore.

This thread is all foam, no beer at this point.

And not just the thread indeed.

This isn't really indicative of anything, considering the Thalassians also warred with them (Trolls) for like 10,000 years. Note that I don't intend to support, or refute, the statements made by @The Iron Fist but rather am just trying to keep things accurate.

Thalassian Elves never waged wars against the Darkspear or Jungle Trolls as a whole ever. The entirety of their hatred has always been pointed towards Forest Trolls and the Amani tribe specifically. On the other hand, Humans shed blood against Jungle and Forest Trolls alike. Hell, even against the Darkspear tribe. And unlike the New Horde, Forest Trolls never changed their xenophobic and violent ways for the most part (Revantusk are the only exception and they're Horde-affiliated already).

Are you ignoring that there's a big possibility that void elves are high elves?

Arguing over a possibility isn't the same as claiming that the datamined material "hints" towards said possibility. There's just not enough stuff for that. And exactly because the info is so scarce and vague claiming it hints "High Elves on the Alliance" has the same validity of saying it hints over a new breed of void-corrupted monstrosities. Alleria being High Elf (when the term "High Elf" at this point literally means every Thalassian who, for the most varied reasons, doesn't call himself/herself Blood Elf) and Void-dabbling at the same time hinting anything towards High Elves turning into Void superheroes is almost like claiming that because one of 4 white males in a room is bald, all the others must be bald because they're white males too (even more so when no other High Elf followed Alleria in her Twisting Nether trip).

This doesn't mean it isn't a possibility worth discussiong. It is. But saying the current info hints anything towards it, to the point of justfying the pretty dumb title of this thread, is blatant wishful thinking.

[DeicideUH]

So suggesting High Elves should change, become something different, new, independent, capable to stand on their own legs instead of leeching lore from their Blood Elf cousins and so able to justify a playable spot means being anti-High Elf? I mean, you could take it that way but if that was the case I would just support the idea of having all of them dead (something that wouldn't take long to achieve, at this point).

I don't care if it's something that has tentacles or teddy bears attached on the body, it has to be something truly unique and truly new. And no, desiring that isn't tied to a single-minded desire to spite pro-High Elf people (it would be a bonus at most but not the main reason for sure) it's tied to the desire of seeing the introduction of a playable race that is more than "worse Blood Elves" whose most interesting trait is the nostalgia over old themes their presence in the Alliance raises within nostalgic people.

THat's bullshit, you know these "suggestions" are just snarky comments to bother people who want to play as high elves.

Whatever they do to the void elves, it will be done in a way that strikes a balance between being too familiar and new. They won't go out of the way just to make people who don't wanna them playable happy.

Void elves will only be as different from blood elves (not high elves) as nightborne are different from night elves. They won't make them unreckognizable, neither physically nor culturally.

Arguing over a possibility isn't the same as claiming that the datamined material "hints" towards said possibility.

It does hint, considering they use blood elf models, and their counterpart is nightborne.

There's just not enough stuff for that. And exactly because the info is so scarce and vague claiming it hints "High Elves on the Alliance" has the same validity of saying it hints over a new breed of void-corrupted monstrosities.

Well, to claim they'll be a breed of "void-corrupted monstrosities" you'd have to ignore that they are (apparently) playable and a counterpart to nightborne, that they use blood elf models, and that in the Alliance you have (a) high elves and (b) a returned high elf hero who learned to use the void as a tool. Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is often the true one. It's way more farfetched to expect them to not be high elves or for them to be monstrous than the contrary.

Alleria being High Elf (when the term "High Elf" at this point literally means every Thalassian who, for the most varied reasons, doesn't call himself/herself Blood Elf) and Void-dabbling at the same time hinting anything towards High Elves turning into Void superheroes is almost like claiming that because one of 4 white males in a room is bald, all the others must be bald because they're white males too (even more so when no other High Elf followed Alleria in her Twisting Nether trip).

A few weeks ago, when there were only those void elf weapon models around, I'd agree. But, considering we found data that hints at seemly future playable nelf subrace called void elves, using blood elf models and being setup as counterpart of the Horde nightborne, why are you ignoring that info as if it were non-existant?

[Beloren]

Nightborne are not Elves of the Night. Their appearance has changed. Their culture has nothing in common. If Blizzard hadn't based their skeleton on Night Elves, no one would be making the association. This is like calling Troggs Dwarves. Yes, both races are pale, have beards, and originated from Earthen. Both have an underground culture and short stature. But they are far from the same. So yeah, in my opinion, calling Nightborne by the name Night Elf is just very wrong.

I am no fan of night elves but that seems a bit absurd tbh, what are they if not night elves? They live in the most iconic night elven city, their civilization hasn't changed in over 10,000 years you are both shown and told "they have preserved an ancient civilization pristinely for over 10,000 years" - the most you can say is that they are not Long Vigil Night Elves, they are Kaldorei Empire Night Elves. That's just silly, every statue in their city is one of a night elf, their language is ancient kaldorei dialect, not exactly Darnassian (which has evolved - but there's hasn't). They ride on cats, they use arcane magic exactly in the sort of way the night elves did in the kaldorei empire, and we are shown they are the same night elven people - they revere the night sky and the stars. They talk about seeing the stars once more not the sun or the day.

It seems a bit weird to convince yourself you aren't getting night elves right.? Stop wasting time on useless arguments and join me campaigning to get the nightborne as far away from the horde. We don't want night elves, nightborne or any type of elves here, Blood elves and only blood elves for the horde.

And I guess the nightwell is called the nightwell for laughs, because it has nothing to do with the night and being night elven. We should be trying to equate nighbtorne to blood elves, blood elves should hate nightborne and many shouldn't want anything to do with them, they should not be on the horde, bringing more skinny pointy ears, and this time night ones over here. Neither should be on the horde if you ask me. Blood elves are the only elf the horde needs. I would have preferred

Lightforged Draenei, that's at least more interesting. We don't need arcane night elves, we are already arcane elves, we don't need nightborne. The blood elves are the best type of Elf out there, they are better than high elves, because they are more ambitious, more cunning and we got most of the Thalassian talent, we got the brightest minds, the best of the talent that remained. High elves just got the delusional and deranged ones - alliance can keep them. If i'd pick any group from the night elf world, it would be the naga who turned good and/or rebelled from Queen Azshara - maybe were able to take some bi-pedal elf form when on land - that was exotic while being able to go full naga form. I could handle that, but nothing else out of the night elf story belongs on the horde.

But if they do bring it to the horde - i wonder if I'd be able to get use to it, or even like it. Thought of night elves as an alliance thing for so long, what would it be like thinking of night elves as also a horde thing. Would night elves then become bigger than the alliance and horde like groups like the Vrykul or the Legion or the Naga? With only elements in the horde and the alliance, but having their own thing going?

[Mace]

Lightforged Draenei, that's at least more interesting. We don't need arcane night elves, we are already arcane elves, we don't need nightborne. The blood elves are the best type of Elf out there, they are better than high elves, because they are more ambitious, more cunning and we got most of the Thalassian talent, we got the brightest minds, the best of the talent that remained. High elves just got the delusional and deranged ones ?

oh dear - brightest minds? blood elves aren't better than high elves they're the same people, - what will you do when half the blood elves defect to the high elves? - yes Blizzard can do that, and it's far more intereting than all of a sudden enough high elves being around.

But if they do bring it to the horde - i wonder if I'd be able to get use to it, or even like it. Thought of night elves as an alliance thing for so long, what would it be like thinking of night elves as also a horde thing. Would night elves then become bigger than the alliance and horde like groups like the Vrykul or the Legion or the Naga? With only elements in the horde and the alliance, but having their own thing going?

Who knows, it depends on how much blizzard do. Potentially with the horde getting night elves in their corner through the nightborne, it could give many more horde players an interest in the night elven world. But the nightborne would have to be a huge thing on the horde too, which I don't think is possible as a sub-race, which is why they lend far stronger to the night elf story outside the horde.

But in the potential case that they do write strong roles, it depends on the role and direction- do they want to weave the night elves more into the faction conflict or out of it? The nightborne could exist on both the alliance and horde, but likely be a neutral Broken isle night elven kingdom doing it's own thing. Out of the faction conflict will mean that the horde nightborne are more an independent group assisting the blood elves building cross elven relations as they are night elves, but playing no major role in the in faction wars etc, this allows horde players to take an interest in further development to the Broken isle night elves which are a far more interesting and better balanced group of night elves than the Kalimdor ones because they have the ancient night elven city, they have the arcane wielders from the empire days, the scholars, the experts, they have balance too through the arcan'dor, they have the druids in Val'sharah to repair/restore the forests, they have the priesthood too and a recently cleared temple making them an attractive centre again to lead worship to Elune, they have the Wardens their also - the martial women, and the demon hunters too given fel magical and martial expertise, not to mention the Azsuna ghosts (if they don't get restored), the Moonguard and the Valewalkers. They have much more going for them than the alliance bunch which just seem to be vastly druids, tiny amount of priests/sentinels and negligible mages.

The Broken Isles has all the wonder of every facet of the night elven world and story there, and with both factions having night elves, both can be interested and invested in seeing this group develop - as the night elven stories have never been about the factions, and they shouldnt' continue to be. This scenario works with both nightborne on the horde, or nightborne on both the horde and alliance. With the Kalimdor night elves continuing the alliance dominated story, and a small portion of the nightborne group on the horde (and alliance) contributing to the factions, leaving Suramar and the Broken Isles neutral allows both player groups and thus all wow to be invested in this unique elven based group. Even has the potential of weaving some of the Thalassian elf storyline back into the night elf world too, since at the moment high/blood elves are very much part of the faction conflict and the human/orc world rather than the night elf world.

The alternative ofc is far worse. This would be if blizzard push all the nightborne to the horde, and then making it some sort of arcane elf versus nature elf war - destroying diversity complexity and consigning the elves to be wholly consumed by the faction conflict when night elf kind are supposed to be 10k year ancients with far more life and wisdom behind them more concerned with world threats than silly irrational squabbles of children. They are too big to be defined or forced into the faction box. This is why the best solution for them is for a small group of them to help out the horde and the alliance, while the vast majority incl the city and the rest of the groups on the Broken Isles remain neutral. They can use this as an opportunity to restore the night elves they broke by pushing them into the alliance faction forcing them to be limited by the humans who had to be the stars when most of the lore was dedicated to building up the horde - depriving wow of one of it's biggest racial group assets from adding it's own very enjoyable flavour to the journeys of the different expansions. i think the night elves having a sizeable role comparable to the humans and orcs in TBC, WotLK, Cata, MoP and WoD would have been more interesting and compelling for the lore. This couldn't happen with the way they went about things, but they now have a chance to continue the expansions like this now.

With a neutral night elven group playing a role in every future expansion, both the horde and alliance players are going to be interested because both have night elves in their factions and this allows night elf involvement to be both a horde and alliance relevant development even if the group used is the neutral one - because it will have racial members in both factions that are connected and tied to it. The nightborne in the horde and the nightborne and night elves in the alliance will both have connections to the Broken Isle night elf kingdom and when this kingdom does things and involves itself, these groups on the allinace/horde (players) and their supporting friends, will feel a part of it, and not necessarily for conflict.


By the way, are you racist? you seem to not like dark skinned elves just because of their skin colour. What did the nightborne or any Broken Isle night elf do to the blood elves? or the Highborne for that matter or Moonguard? Yet you just don't seem to like any of them.

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When the leaks die down, you can always count on the high elves to provide you with some forum edge.

Blizzard knew very well what they're doing when they inserted that data. This is the hottest pre-Blizzacon subject at the moment.

Always is, it's got enormous potential. It's why the thrust of the elven conflict should be blood elf vs high elf, and they should now use the night elves who would be in both factions as a sort of source of reconciliation - especially if it's the broken isle night elves who the blood elves will be allying themselves with and ofc who are night elves anyway, so the alliance group won't see them as enemies if they remain neutral.

Which is why it's important only a small group join the horde, and they can join the alliance also, it just can't be the whole group.

High elf/blood elf is all you need for the faction edge - the nightborne don't generate a fraction of this intensity or degree of discussion, nor do the night elves - their discussions are usually questions and speculations about their lore. The real fighting comes when the high/blood elves are discussed.

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You are missing the point, it would have made since if say, the trolls in Quel'thalas ended up trying to join the Alliance because of their sheer hatred of the horde, betrayed once by blackhand, and then they let the elves into the Horde they promised to help kill.

Actually, it would kinda be nice to have trolls on the alliance. But I fear if that happens, they'd be such an outcry of homogenization. "Blizzard what are you doing? Your making the horde more like the alliance by sending night elves there, and the alliance more like the horde by sending Trolls there."

[Caerule]

I am no fan of night elves but that seems a bit absurd tbh, what are they if not night elves? They live in the most iconic night elven city, their civilization hasn't changed in over 10,000 years you are both shown and told "they have preserved an ancient civilization pristinely for over 10,000 years" - the most you can say is that they are not Long Vigil Night Elves, they are Kaldorei Empire Night Elves. That's just silly, every statue in their city is one of a night elf, their language is ancient kaldorei dialect, not exactly Darnassian (which has evolved - but there's hasn't). They ride on cats, they use arcane magic exactly in the sort of way the night elves did in the kaldorei empire, and we are shown they are the same night elven people - they revere the night sky and the stars. They talk about seeing the stars once more not the sun or the day.

It seems a bit weird to convince yourself you aren't getting night elves right.? Stop wasting time on useless arguments and join me campaigning to get the nightborne as far away from the horde. We don't want night elves, nightborne or any type of elves here, Blood elves and only blood elves for the horde.

Come now, you can't claim these are Night Elves, just because they live in a city that was once Night Elven. The Nightborne are Highborne that continued to change, evolve and advance for 10.000 years. The culture has changed. The people have changed. Just as the Blood Elves have.

You are right that the Night Elves have also changed. Even if there had been no changes at all to the people locked in Suramar. To be a Night Elf is a path of vigil, care for nature, and religion. And yes, though unliked, Highborne are allowed in their giant tree now. But there's a difference between not wanting to abandon some Highborne magic, and creating an abomination of an arcane city and culture. The Nightborne's indulgence in magic exceeds by far the highborne of old. It even far exceeds the Blood Elves, who were banished for it. Advanced magical constructs, arcane tattoos, arcane gardening skills, Telemancy, chronomancy, spellblades. In many ways, Nightborne elves are more magically advanced than Blood Elves are. Night Elves and these arcane-tattooed, spider-thin, dark elves just aren't compatible for integration. They are to Night Elves what Night Elves are to Trolls.

And I guess the nightwell is called the nightwell for laughs, because it has nothing to do with the night and being night elven. We should be trying to equate nighbtorne to blood elves, blood elves should hate nightborne and many shouldn't want anything to do with them, they should not be on the horde, bringing more skinny pointy ears, and this time night ones over here. Neither should be on the horde if you ask me. Blood elves are the only elf the horde needs. I would have preferred Lightforged Draenei, that's at least more interesting. We don't need arcane night elves, we are already arcane elves, we don't need nightborne. The blood elves are the best type of Elf out there, they are better than high elves, because they are more ambitious, more cunning and we got most of the Thalassian talent, we got the brightest minds, the best of the talent that remained. High elves just got the delusional and deranged ones - alliance can keep them. If i'd pick any group from the night elf world, it would be the naga who turned good and/or rebelled from Queen Azshara - maybe were able to take some bi-pedal elf form when on land - that was exotic while being able to go full naga form. I could handle that, but nothing else out of the night elf story belongs on the horde.

The Nightwell is called the Nightwell because its waters are dark.
And, don't worry so much about the Horde getting more elves. We'll also be getting more Taurens. And more orcs. And more Trolls. If sub-races are happening, they aren't going to just be for the elves. They are going to be for all races, with the possible exception of Goblins, Worgen and Pandaren.

But if they do bring it to the horde - i wonder if I'd be able to get use to it, or even like it. Thought of night elves as an alliance thing for so long, what would it be like thinking of night elves as also a horde thing. Would night elves then become bigger than the alliance and horde like groups like the Vrykul or the Legion or the Naga? With only elements in the horde and the alliance, but having their own thing going?

Nightborne are not Night Elves. If they were, they would be calling themselves Night Elf. Don't let their animations fool your mind.

[Friendlyimmolation]

oh dear - brightest minds? blood elves aren't better than high elves they're the same people, - what will you do when half the blood elves defect to the high elves? - yes Blizzard can do that, and it's far more intereting than all of a sudden enough high elves being around.

Blood elves sure as hell wouldn't go running to Alleria or the SC, it makes less sense than just retconning in a bunch of high elves. Alleria didn't give them security or save their world, and the SC to them are just terrorists that would rather kill them and live with enemies then help rebuild their kingdom.

I would indeed say brightest minds, are on the side of the Sin'dorei. The magisters, the higher rangers, the blood knights the Scryers and sunfury, those handpicked by Kael'thas and who would later leave him, rejoined Quel'thalas after the sunwell was restored.

[Mace]

Come now, you can't claim these are Night Elves, just because they live in a city that was once Night Elven. The Nightborne are Highborne that continued to change, evolve and advance for 10.000 years. The culture has changed. The people have changed. Just as the Blood Elves have.

You are right that the Night Elves have also changed. Even if there had been no changes at all to the people locked in Suramar. To be a Night Elf is a path of vigil, care for nature, and religion. And yes, though unliked, Highborne are allowed in their giant tree now. But there's a difference between not wanting to abandon some Highborne magic, and creating an abomination of an arcane city and culture. The Nightborne's indulgence in magic exceeds by far the highborne of old. It even far exceeds the Blood Elves, who were banished for it. Advanced magical constructs, arcane tattoos, arcane gardening skills, Telemancy, chronomancy, spellblades. In many ways, Nightborne elves are more magically advanced than Blood Elves are. Night Elves and these arcane-tattooed, spider-thin, dark elves just aren't compatible for integration. They are to Night Elves what Night Elves are to Trolls.

They aren't exactly kaldorei, but they are kaldorei based/off shoot - it's clear they are a kaldorei sub-race and kaldorei related if not exactly like they once were, I don't even think that should be an argument, although i don't know what @EnigmAddict has an issue with them for i never would have guessed he was racist, but sometimes people's true feelings surface in the places you least expect.

I think you have also missed the boat on the nightborne, blizzard are showing you the night elf arcane empire elves, this is what their magic is like when its not in ruins. I think you misguage the highborne completley because like most players you've assumed the novices the Blood elf disgraced in Azshara were full blown 10k year old highborne. Blizzard wanted to show you what a night elf group who had continued uninterrupted in the night elven arcane ways in a city that never fell to ruin would look like today. They said EXACTLY this in the Gamesom and Blizzcon panels of 2015. They have told us that the night elf empire magi was more advanced than anything today, and that was 10k years ago. What do you think it would be like in a groups like the Shen'dralar and nightborne who continued practising? THe difference is that with the shen'dralar dire maul fell to ruin recently, so you don't notice it, but Suramar is supposed to show you what night elven arcane magic is like. How can you not see that. They are not trying to invent some brand new elven group, they are showing you the full vision of the arcane side of the night elves. It is fitting they should also modify them a bit, as it gives you a cool new sub-race models and surely using magic to that extent has to produce some physical changes - they were using magic for food for crying out loud. Also they didn't morph into some alien creature growing 20 fingers, 4 arms, or 2 digit feet and completely new visage, they just grew darker. They look thinner becuase they're not eating real food until very recently. It's not rocket science to see these are teh same pruple elves, night based, and you are shown and told this it he way kaldorei empire night elves, arcane night elves live when they are not in ruins.

The Nightwell is called the Nightwell because its waters are dark.
And, don't worry so much about the Horde getting more elves. We'll also be getting more Taurens. And more orcs. And more Trolls. If sub-races are happening, they aren't going to just be for the elves. They are going to be for all races, with the possible exception of Goblins, Worgen and Pandaren. [/quote


Nightborne are not Night Elves. If they were, they would be calling themselves Night Elf. Don't let their animations fool your mind.

Night elf is both a racial name and a descritpion, nightborne are a type of night elf. There is nothing complicated in the nomenclature either. Night, night elf, nightborne, highborne, nightwell - get the hint? This is night group stuff.

And yes you're right about no one should worry about the horde getting more elves in this context because every race will be getting more of themselves. That's the beauty about sub-races and probably th eonly way high elves could have worked, even though i still think the blood elf sub-race should be with the blood elves and the night elf sub race with the night elves - but that doens't have to be a hard and fast rule, I've always known they could switch them, or they could give both sides both.

But yeh, nightborne will definitely be your night elf on the horde side.

[Mehrunes]

Right, but the excerpt you actually provided specifically says he went home (i.e. to Quel'thalas) and rounded up all the survivors he could -- "approximately 90% of the surviving High Elves". It's absolutely possible that this is meant to be interpreted exactly as it's written, without utilizing any previously released information on the subject (i.e. Lands of Conflict), which could then suggest the anecdote is explicitly referring to the individuals who actually survived (see. those who were present at the time of the actual event) the Sacking of Quel'thalas and not all of their species, globally.

I don't really care either way because it's Blizzard and, well, they'll do them -- just a curiosity that so many posters who believe their position infallible have built their arguments around ambiguities or now de-canonized material.

And since the surviving High Elves that were away during the whole thing, he couldn't round them up, could he now? Because let's examine your interpretation that it refers some group of High Elves in Quel'thalas that also weren't the later exiles. Who exactly are they? Where are they? Because we know the groups or individuals who were away at the time, we know the exiles. And that about covers the High Elves that are presented in the game. Are we to expect there's another population of High Elves equalling 10% of the Blood Elven population still lurking somewhere in Ghostlands that no one ever spotted before?

It's also important to note the fact that immediately afterwards Kael launched a series of two disastrous campaigns against first the Scourge, and then the combined might of the Alliance and Horde, and in between those a bunch of them turned Wretched* and Lor'themar kicked a bunch more out of Silvermoon for conscientious objection to Kael's plans. Ultimately, it's probably closer to 50% vs 15%. Which, if the entirety of the High Elves were military, would explain why we see just as many on the battlefield as Blood Elf NPCs, who still have the luxury of a civilian population.

*You know, either way they end up going with it, if you had a powerful transformative plot device like, say, void energy this might be a good place to find recruits.

Except the Blood Elves that followed Kael in his campaigns were 15% of the Blood Elves. Some of them survived first to Outland, then all the way through Kael's downfall and rejoined Quel'thalas. So it's more than 75% of the survivors to "15"%. And that 15%? The only confirmed outpost of the exiles was Quel'lithien. Which, ultimately, was utterly decimated and has a single survivor, making the High Elven percentage go back to 10%. Then there are a series of disasters that befell other groups of High Elves, like those in Theramore which were wiped out by Garrosh, or Silver Covenant which was Horde's canon fodder for multiple expansions, making that drop below 10%. Kinda weird how you counted disasters for one side only to begin with.

And I give legitimate reasons for why they're not that possible as you believe. Terrible, I know. Also, show me these horrific "attacks" I made to individual posters because I don't recall any. On the other hand, I remember you mounting constant and repeated personal attacks towards specific posters. In other words, stick your eyes on the mirror before speaking horseshit.

But there are no legitimate reasons why it's not possible Which is kinda what Iron Fist believes, given that one of their tantrums wasn't about just me, you or Friendly, but about all people against High Elves. Which makes for ultimate levels of consistency when they pretend they understand why they may not be added.

Said the guy who deems the Blood Elf inclusion into the Horde a "retcon" without even understanding what retcon means. Your willingness to see High Elves playable isn't definitely tied to that petty denial in any way, sure thing.

Zulkhan please. All lore that Iron Fist or Magnagarde don't like is a retcon. Particularly Blood Elves (or, in Magnagarde's case, also Forsaken) joining the Horde. Now, that being a retcon may rest on them pretending some pieces of lore (like, I dunno, Quel'thalas leaving the Alliance few years earlier) don't exist and misrepresenting the shit out of others.

Even if I was on the same side myself I would still bet on a more reliable horse than @The Iron Fist. Guess it's either desperation or someone here is a terrible wagerer.

It's Magnagarde though. They already did the same exact thing in regards to the likes of Tripzzz and the like. You shouldn't expect the members of the brotherhood of fanfiction to behave in the same way as non-members.

I may have chosen the wrong approach. True rational people throw slanders, personal attacks and silence/ignore people. My bad, I'll try to get better at that.

And to cement that, we should publicly ignore each other!

You list sources and interpret them the way it better fits your narrative, deliberately ignoring the fallacies of such interpretations because is convenient to you. See, there's a difference.

Wait, are you telling me that @The Iron Fist wasn't in the right when he quoted a source talking about High Elves making a pledge towards Arathor and descendants of Thoradin and then made an argument how that somehow means they made a pledge towards the descendants of Arathor. i.e. other human nations? Or that they were wrong to link wikis about supposed differences between Grand Alliance and Alliance of Lordaeron to Zanjin and told them to read the links before talking lore (after they made a suggestion to not get all lore knowledge from wikis when their argument about Alleria being Ranger General turned to shit), even though their very link about the Grand Alliance very early talked about it being previously called Alliance of Lordaeron? Impossibru!