You do realize that this doesn't matter in the context of grind, right? You cherry picked one part of the expansion where AP was worth almost nothing, without acknowledging that the rest of expansion was very different. Oh, sure, in theory, you don't "need" it. In reality, you're going to grab any decent advantage. If Blizzard introduces yet another step in the AP grind, we'll be grinding it after 75.
Methods first kill proves the point that "grind" is not a barrier to those kills. If someone says "we cant kill this boss when people are not at XY traits" then they are creating artificial barrier for themselves and people that play with them. Its not just in theory when people have killed those bosses with lower trait levels. This is all the same complain that has been going on all expansion where players say blizzard is forcing them to grind to be succesful. Artifact power is character progression that's not just for high end raiding but only the high end raiders are complaining it because they have turned RPG element in to performance threshold.
Method is also the kind of guild who has much higher skill level and combines it with crazy class stacking (including race changes), thus achieving output that's not accessible to the vast majority of mythic raiders. Just because something is technically possible for them doesn't mean much. Other guilds need help, either through gearing (which is vastly inferior in this expansion), boss nerfs - which were quite severe and yet didn't turn them into pushovers - or additional powerups, be it item upgrades or new traits/crucible.
Plus, again - you cherry picked the only part of expansion which didn't have AP grind. The fact is that extra Concordance ranks sucked. No one bothered with them, since it offered minimal gain for significant effort. The same cannot be said about the Crucible. But yeah, sure, let's go with "if the best players in the world don't need X, then clearly the same can be said for less skilled raiders..." Do you not realize how absurd this argument is?
method and exorsus are a on a whole different lvl then even rest of the top 5/top 10 let alone all the rest of the raiders, just cause method and exorsus can kill something (on which they complained it was overtuned/ridiclous fight) doesnt mean it its fine for evry one else.
You are right. But wow is not fps game where you need to have crazy reflexes or something like that. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from gettin better at this game if you are still struggling with the current tier. No one is saying that the current tier is not doable. Its hard, maybe even too hard for some people.
And you also have to remember that it has been over 3 months since the boss was killed first time. Your character should have been progressing all this time and the bosses have received nerfs.
I know some of us care less about how far we get than we do just having a next boss to work on. Getting stuck on M-Mistress, but being able to work on the fight, beats zerging H once a week with nowhere else to go. For some of us at least.
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A few of the comments in here smack of epeen and miss the original point. If every raid team that cleared H could attempt M, would all of them be equally successful? Of course not. Would all of them fail? Also of course not. It's ridiculous to say that everyone on a smaller raid team is a bad player not ready for M.
If you're in a happy guild that enjoys raiding 2/week (probably the average), you just want something to do when you log on for raid night, something the team can keep working on. Doesn't matter if you're as good as the guilds that already beat those bosses with less gear; all that matters is that you and your friends have something to keep working on, at whatever pace you can manage.
Last edited by Felfaadaern Darkterror; 2017-11-01 at 05:24 AM. Reason: spelling & grammar
"I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"
yea sure with the current bosses it's not really an option. But they were not designed with 10 man mythic in mind anyway.
If they would bring it back it has to be in the new expansion. But flex shows how big of a mess tuning is on some bosses if you run 10 man goups. So i guess that shows how much they want to bring 10 man to the table.
Last edited by Allenschezar; 2017-11-01 at 07:10 AM.
My guild is exactly there. Clearing HC rather late, but still facing a long period with nothing to do but re-clearing in one raid night, and hen have nothing for night 2. So there is definitely room for something, but should that be Mythic? Because, if it was, then the whole premise of creating a tier tuned for tight nit fixed size well prepared teams is out the window. So some HC+? Other option is to switch modes at some point later in the tier, but that would screw over teams genuinely progressing on M at that point. With the 11 week cadance, the problem is not solved but lessened as raids follow each-other pretty rapidly.
Personally, I think most teams underestimate the need for a bit of a breeder in the schedule. It might not feel like it in the short run, as you're used to 'raid night' and suddenly there's not realy anything but 'achievement runs' and you see people signing more tentative and declining and thinking it is all because of 'no new boss to work on'. But quite a few might be silently looking forward to a few weeks of pause.
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I disagree strongly. Normal is meant as a first step into organized raiding. People are there as a group that all want the same thing. LFR is anonymous unorganized queued content. People are there for different reasons, some are even there just to troll and try to make it fail, others aren't even realy there, and despite all this, content is tuned so the group will still have a high chance to succeed.
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Flex has been a blessing for casual raiding teams. I don't think my guild is atypical and wouldn't survive if it weren't for flex.
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At the high end where you want to push the extremes, you need to be able to take some constraints into account in your tuning exercise. Besides, if you did not, that would just introduce 1 more parameter into the strategy for the teams to find the 'optimal scaling size' for each boss. So in essence, this would amount to 'fixed size' but with the size being determined per boss.
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That is not how it works. The effort to add Mythic is marginal. They design for HC and the other difficulties are just variants. Having fixed size for M makes it even easier as they can ignore scaling factors. In your reasoning you should do away with all high end events in anything, being games, sports, science, culture whatever. Just be left with mediocre 'Einheidswurst' as the lowest common denominator of life.
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People are quite used to setting aside specific nights each week for certain non-solo activities. Whether it is sports practice, music lessons, sewing clubs or poker night. Why would WoW raiding as a hobby be different? Not saying that for casual participants having one or two persons absent would break the event, things happen, so that is what flex is for. But having raiding night as something you might do if you feel like logging and have noting better to do, then maybe you should look more into more solo or simply queued (moba) games. M+ might also be better suited.
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You mean like they did with M+ dungeons? Works fantastic there, but I'm not sure HC+ raids would be as attractive. Could be though.
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Even for causal HC guilds people were initially benched on FA as the scaling favored smaller group sizes so much
They wouldn't stop because of the effort required; they'd stop because of design tradeoffs required.
You see this already starting to happen in Legion. The tradeoff of "giving everyone something to do" and "not making high end raiders feel like they have to do too much" was shifted away from pleasing the high end raiders.
Analogies of the game with things from real life are, of course, retarded. Sports has a totally different business model (people pay to watch, not play, and is PvP not PvE). And the difficulty of "science" or "culture" (whatever that would mean) is not something that can be nerfed. Tell me: if the difficulty of life *could* be nerfed, wouldn't it be utterly monstrous not to do so? Doesn't technology do precisely that?
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
What I would love to see is mythic raiding be completely redesigned. Make Heroics much more difficult than their current iteration (tighter limit on titan-forging could do this). Once cleared, you can enter the mythic difficulty (like it is now). Create mythics like the old challenge mode dungeons, where item level and gear is standardized (this would hopefully prevent the need for split raids, thus less time commitment to join a mythic guild). I would personally like to see it moved to 15 man content, where 3 tanks and 3 healers are actually necessary. Make the rewards for clearing mythic achievements, mounts, etc., and not based on gear.
I would also like Blizz to support it more by streaming the top teams in 3rd person view and maybe even restricting raid times so people can watch the race. Make clearing heroics the first week the 'buy-in' and then the next week is the race, and would be limited to the guilds who finished in the top x (5?). Tournament style I guess. If you didn't finish in the top x, you could still run mythic the next week but wouldn't be part of the official tournament and regulated by blizz on hours to allow streaming the race.
I'm sure there are a multitude of issues with this that I have not thought of but this just an idea of what I would personally like to see.
You assume they were focussd on 'pleasing high end raiders' before then? Putting in features that benefit a lott of players but make it harder for top end players is not somthing that equates to 'stopping mythic'.
Why? Is gaming a less 'real' activity then badminton, soccer, band practice ...?
In fact very little of the money in sports comes from direct ticket sales or subscription to sports channels. Most is inderect though advertizing or merchandizing.
That doesn't seem to stop people trying by trying to make them into just popularity contests. [/QUOTE]
Not participating is the ultimate nerf. People aren't looking for the easiest option all the time. They are looking for many things, just as in real life that sometimes it is just zoning out (grab pills and booze or whatever), but often times they also want to challenge themselves. They can also just enjoy the idea that challenges beyond their abilities are even there and enjoy that people are tackling them just for the love of it.
Yes, they are worth it. You cant balance encounter difficulty to be same as 10p or 30p. You cant just do it. every time some fight would be easier as 10 or as 30.