Subspecs, making all tanks and healers deal viable damage?

[Vichan]

sounds like a balancing nightmare. not to mention getting them to play smooth as a role they weren't intended to do would be a pain as well

[Amnaught]

They don't do it because they don't want it...plus you're obviously underestimating how hard it is for them to balance one spec with multiple play styles...did you start playing WoW in Legion?

- Players want new specs

- It is much easier to balance one spec with two different mastery/passive choices than two entirely separate specializations.

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That is not what you said.

What you said: "No, it is more distinct when you dps differently to how you tank. What you want is less distinct."

What I said: "It is less distinct when you can do damage or tank virtually the same way. That's the point."

*That is what I want*: A damage spec that has the same gameplay of an existing tanking spec. A "new" damage spec made out of every existing tanking and healing spec.

[Deleted]

- Players want new specs

- It is much easier to balance one spec with two different mastery/passive choices than two entirely separate specializations.

I don't want new spec.

Its not easy to balance anything, let alone buff tanking abilities' dmg to be and dps ability .. it also sounds stupid as hell.

[Kithelle]

- Players want new specs

- It is much easier to balance one spec with two different mastery/passive choices than two entirely separate specializations.

Umm...no it isn't? It's easier to balance two different things with two different goals than trying to make one spec with two different goals.

They could never balance 2H and DW Frost...same with 1H and 2H Fury...Gladiator did to much damage so they nerfed it then axed it.

They obviously can't balance 2 different play styles in 1 spec, like I asked...did you start playing in Legion?

[Amnaught]

Its not easy to balance anything, let alone buff tanking abilities' dmg to be and dps ability .. it also sounds stupid as hell.

They did it Gladiator by replacing just one passive ability. And people loved it.

[Deleted]

They did it Gladiator by replacing just one passive ability. And people loved it.

They BARELY did it ONE spec, and that was the way it worked. Briefly!!

You think is EASY to balance all .. 12 whatever classes and like 35 specs, are you out of your mind.

Im done with this topic, its getting more trolly than anything, dont need another jaylock in my life.

[ComputerNerd]

- Players want new specs

- It is much easier to balance one spec with two different mastery/passive choices than two entirely separate specializations.

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What you said: "No, it is more distinct when you dps differently to how you tank. What you want is less distinct."

What I said: "It is less distinct when you can do damage or tank virtually the same way. That's the point."

*That is what I want*: A damage spec that has the same gameplay of an existing tanking spec. A "new" damage spec made out of every existing tanking and healing spec.

We will disagree.

Adding in effect more specs with virtually the same gameplay, in contrast to the more varied ones now isn't creating variety.
Creating near clones is simply cluttering.

They did it Gladiator by replacing just one passive ability. And people loved it.

"people".
And because something is vocally liked, it does not mean it was worked how blizzard wanted it to.

Take meta snapshotting on warlocks, which made one trinket near mandatory and in terms of numbers was a huge outlier.
Players can like something for the wrong reasons.
Because it gets results often, but at the expense of something else.

[Marc7]

Meh. I do think we need at least 1 new ranged DPS spec in the game though, and for a class that doesn't already have a ranged DPS spec, and also doesn't already have multiple DPS specs. Monk or paladin then, maybe.

[Deleted]

Doesn't really seem like it'd be a lot of balancing work, to me. Tanks only need a "+X%" damage and "-X%" Threat/Health.

And about the DK specs, it would be an excuse to put in the extra work to review Frost and Unholy as tanking specs.

Ain't gonna happen. As much as I agree that no tanking spec ever invented for WoW can hold a candle to dual wielding frost tank from mid-late ICC, it's just ways too far beyond anything the Team B could dream about, let alone try to implement.
Also, imperial system sucks.

[Soon-TM]

Ain't gonna happen. As much as I agree that no tanking spec ever invented for WoW can hold a candle to dual wielding frost tank from mid-late ICC, it's just ways too far beyond anything the Team B could dream about, let alone try to implement.
Also, imperial system sucks.

Just out of curiosity, what is imperial system? ^^

[Spaze]

Wait you want dks to be able to tank with all three specs but you're proposing the opposite, allowing all tank specs to deal damage?

I suppose blizzard 'could' do this, but why? These specs are based around tanking and healing, and while they could throw in talents to swap it I guess, I just don't see it being worth their time to add extra balancing work to all the game's tank and healing specs when these classes all have at least one proper dps spec to turn to as is.

wasnt that a thing as they were new, i remember that i was tanking as frost in wotlk was kinda fun

[Lochton]

Well it'd be kind of lame to get a prot damage spec on Paladins and not give it to Warriors, given that Gladiator has already existed

Nah, always thought Glad should have been translated to Paladins as Templar.

[Florena]

The bolded part is what's wrong with this idea. Things aren't always as they seem, especially from a singular, biased perspective.

Unless you'd like to shed light on your years of experience balancing a MMO style environment, I don't think you have any idea how it truly works. If you just think it would be easy, you're wrong. Historically balancing isn't "easy" as the game itself suggests. Too many overlapping elements. If I'm not mistaken this design approach has already been attempted and failed with the Protection Warrior spec.

On top of all this, why do tanks and healers need to deal "viable" damage? Don't they do that already? Don't we have damage dealers to, y'know, deal damage? I wouldn't want resources tied up in this. Design more content, don't waste time with this.

Didn't they also take away fistweaving?

[Phookah]

They did it Gladiator by replacing just one passive ability. And people loved it.

Yeah, they loved it and the balance crap they had to do with it so much that it was removed after what? Two patches? They basically removed fistweaving from MW monks too, because they don't want specs doing multiple things.

[Magistrate]

Doesn't really seem like it'd be a lot of balancing work, to me. Tanks only need a "+X%" damage and "-X%" Threat/Health.

And about the DK specs, it would be an excuse to put in the extra work to review Frost and Unholy as tanking specs.

Because a flat percent based increase/decrease across all skills, passives, artifact ability skills/passives, etc., will not translate into a flat increase/decrease. It will pile on top of exponential math and other silliness baked into passives/actives behind the scenes and do lots of wonky things, more likely.

[Phookah]

Because a flat percent based increase/decrease across all skills, passives, artifact ability skills/passives, etc., will not translate into a flat increase/decrease. It will pile on top of exponential math and other silliness baked into passives/actives behind the scenes and do lots of wonky things, more likely.

Exactly. If balancing was as easy as "just increase X spec's damage by X%" you think blizzard wouldn't do it? There's a reason specific abilities/traits/relics get buffed and nerfed instead of overall damage increased/decreased as needed.

[vep]

Doesn't really seem like it'd be a lot of balancing work, to me. Tanks only need a "+X%" damage and "-X%" Threat/Health.

And about the DK specs, it would be an excuse to put in the extra work to review Frost and Unholy as tanking specs.

Why would tanks or healers do good damage? If you want to do damage just respec.

[Spotnick]

I'm a healer, if I wanted to dps, I'd play a dps class.

[zox2]

The problem is that tanks/healers generally have very simple damage rotation. That said, healer dps could be a lot closer to dps specs than it is now. Tank dps is fairly decent for most tanks. With all that said, I'd really love a sword and board dps spec, and I miss my frost tank from the days of yore. I'd also LOVE a couple of support classes who have lower personal dps, but increase group dps/healing/survival/control.

[Better]

They did it Gladiator by replacing just one passive ability. And people loved it.

This just wouldn't work with some tank specs though. Veng DH for instance would be ungodly self sustain as a DPS, even without the passive we get as tanks for less damage taken/more stam. Self healing is just built into every part of our kit, there's not really a way of taking it out without gutting any flavor the spec has. You also have the added problem that we use a 40% damage reduction as a burst CD. So you couldn't just disable the ability, you'd now need to rework it. Gladiator spec worked because it was fairly simple. Most tank specs couldn't just transition that way.