Week 16 (ends 10-9-17): M-KJ 168, M-Gul'dan 600

[Myztikrice]

That doesn't seem right, there are still records of raid kills of guilds in past expansions that have long since disbanded

[Deleted]

Some guilds just have to accept the fact that they don't have what it takes to beat mythic kj.

Or. Lot of players simply quit this game = less kj kills. I seriously dont get why people still bother with Mythic when game have LFR. Wohoho you get better gear pls who gives *** about that in current state of the game.

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I quit WoW because of Tomb. Its boring dull and way too difficult. Im not wasting my time on raiding, when someone who has half my skill can get better gear in less time with a pathetically easy way of doing it. Facts are mythic 20m is killing guilds, the requirement for certain classes, and the fact that there no progression anymore are all ruining raiding. Mythic + will never go away now, so we can always expect this stupid system. Honestly dont even bother, youre wasting your time.
I like challenging stuff, however when there is no incentive more of a punishment then im not going to bother. mage tower is fun because you dont have to rely on potatoes to show up and not make a mistake.

Only thing what is killing Mythic guilds are options to finish content in easy mods. People finaly figured out how huge waste of time is mythic raiding compared to easy mod LFR. What there in Mythic raid so exciting? Yeah nothing. You get useslss gear what gets absolote by next patch, uselss mounts, titles, achievements what nobady cares about anymore becouse there is so many of them. Mythic isnt rewarding due to easy mods yeah.

[Temp name]

Or. Lot of players simply quit this game = less kj kills. I seriously dont get why people still bother with Mythic when game have LFR. Wohoho you get better gear pls who gives *** about that in current state of the game.

Personally I like the challenge and the models

[Kuruption]

Or. Lot of players simply quit this game = less kj kills. I seriously dont get why people still bother with Mythic when game have LFR. Wohoho you get better gear pls who gives *** about that in current state of the game.

Probably because LFR is beyond boring to most of the player base that likes raiding.

[Deleted]

Probably because LFR is beyond boring to most of the player base that likes raiding.

Number one reason why people raided was to see content. When there was only 1 difficulty raiding was far heathier. Nobady will bother run mythic just to have fun and do exact same content what they alredy cleared several times befor. High end raiding is on serious decline becouse of it which caused KJ having lower kill count.

[Tomana]

Or. Lot of players simply quit this game = less kj kills. I seriously dont get why people still bother with Mythic when game have LFR. Wohoho you get better gear pls who gives *** about that in current state of the game.

^ I seriously don't get why people still bother with playing Civilization on Emperor when game has Chieftain. Woohoo, you get better score pls who gives *** about that in current state of the game.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when you spend too much time watching stuff on TV.

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Number one reason why people raided was to see content. When there was only 1 difficulty raiding was far heathier. Nobady will bother run mythic just to have fun and do exact same content what they alredy cleared several times befor. High end raiding is on serious decline becouse of it which caused KJ having lower kill count.

Yet original KJ (when raiding was "healthier", according to local forum trolls) didn't have much more than 168 kills prior to 3.0 release. But obviously, that situation was far healthier. Oh wait...

[Eyechewer]

Yet original KJ (when raiding was "healthier", according to local forum trolls) didn't have much more than 168 kills prior to 3.0 release. But obviously, that situation was far healthier. Oh wait...

Well, yes actually.

[Deleted]

Yet original KJ

he was after m'uru. don't try and kid yourself and compare the two. also, sunwell was pure hell in terms of difficulty, compared to what the great majority of people were used to at the time. mt.hyjal/bt lasted for like 8-9 months aswell, so when sunwell finally rolled around most guilds didn't have a clue what it would be like.

it also had gating which staggered progression.

and it wasn't so much m'uru was a 'difficult' fight, as much as it was the fact that it was insanely boring to progress it, since for like 85% of the fight you are standing staring down a doorway and occasionally killing a pack of mobs while your tank is kiting a dumb mob around and you are hoping your sp won't mess up (since you didn't use holy priests in sunwell, for anything other than standing outside the inside and buffing the raid as you ran past them)

the major problem with ToS is that the mechanics are for the most part not engaging at all to perform, it very fast becomes repetetive to rinse soaks and stand in shit.

[Tomana]

Well, yes actually.

Actually what? So, 168 Sunwell KJ kills is a far healthier situation than 168 KJ kills which is "OMGOMG dead raiding"? That doesn't make any sense at all.

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he was after m'uru. don't try and kid yourself and compare the two. also, sunwell was pure hell in terms of difficulty, compared to what the great majority of people were used to at the time. mt.hyjal/bt lasted for like 8-9 months aswell, so when sunwell finally rolled around most guilds didn't have a clue what it would be like.

So, that was not a healthy situation. As it happens, I agree. Only problem is, the person I replied to doesn't seem to think so.

it also had gating which staggered progression.

For most guilds that gating was not so relevant because they got cockblocked by either Bruta or the Twins.

and it wasn't so much m'uru was a 'difficult' fight, as much as it was the fact that it was insanely boring to progress it, since for like 85% of the fight you are standing staring down a doorway and occasionally killing a pack of mobs

Errrr... dude, have you even saw M'uru before 3.0? You didn't "occasionally" kill a pack of mobs, you barely had time to DPS one pack down before the next one showed up, and that was if you had the DPS. And as the healer standing near that pack and healing the bare durid as well as monitoring the flurry buff on mobs and managing mana because Blizzard couldn't balance healer regen, it was anything but boring.

(since you didn't use holy priests in sunwell, for anything other than standing outside the inside and buffing the raid as you ran past them)

That is totally false, a lot of guilds (including mine) used 1 or 2 holy priests for M'uru, not to mention other bosses.

the major problem with ToS is that the mechanics are for the most part not engaging at all to perform, it very fast becomes repetetive to rinse soaks and stand in shit.

I can't comment on TOS difficulty, but that wasn't the subject of my post. The subject was that you can't possibly interpret the BC situation as far healthier when much less people actually saw the content.

[KaPe]

Actually what? So, 168 Sunwell KJ kills is a far healthier situation than 168 KJ kills which is "OMGOMG dead raiding"? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Whatever tracking tool was used for Sunwell, it isn't working well. We killed KJ quite a bit before 3.0 and we were far from 168th guild in the world. As nasty as that place was, it wasn't *that* bad.

Plus, old KJ had the benefit of being significantly easier than Mu'ru, with far less annoying comp requirements. Neither of those fights had instant wipe mechanics, other than failing to dispel skulls or failing the dps check on Darkness. By today's standards, they'd spice things up a ton, so you'd need perfect dragon management and class stacking to just barely make the timers.

[Tomana]

Whatever tracking tool was used for Sunwell, it isn't working well. We killed KJ quite a bit before 3.0 and we were far from 168th guild in the world. As nasty as that place was, it wasn't *that* bad.

But we're not at the end of the expansion or the tier, either.

Plus, old KJ had the benefit of being significantly easier than Mu'ru, with far less annoying comp requirements. Neither of those fights had instant wipe mechanics, other than failing to dispel skulls or failing the dps check on Darkness. By today's standards, they'd spice things up a ton, so you'd need perfect dragon management and class stacking to just barely make the timers.

But still, the end result is the same.

[KaPe]

But we're not at the end of the expansion or the tier, either.

But... we are? We have maybe 2-3 resets before Antorus opens, unless there's some drastic scheduling change.

But still, the end result is the same.

And both results suck. Except nowadays, even Mythic raiding is expected to be completed by more than just couple hundred guilds. Unless this changed since Nighthold, who knows.

[Tomana]

And both results suck.

Please read my original post: I agree completely that both results suck. However, the person I originally replied to seemed to consider the BC situation as healthy, and the current situation as unacceptable.

[KaPe]

Please read my original post: I agree completely that both results suck. However, the person I originally replied to seemed to consider the BC situation as healthy, and the current situation as unacceptable.

I guess it was "healthy" in the sense that such low completion rates were "expected". Still, even devs found Sunwell participation % to be a failure, so that doesn't really work either.

Though, admitedly, progressing through old KJ was far less annoying than this one - so, more "healthy" in a way Finally getting through that second dps check and ripping him a new one during long stun sequence... much more pleasant than "boom, you're all dead, try again".

[Deleted]

Please read

that's what you should have done to my post originally, so in that way i wouldn't have had to waste seconds of my life writing this short message in response to you. (which is the only response you will ever recieve)

reading comprehension, try googling it and let me know what you find on the subject.

[Tomana]

that's what you should have done to my post originally, so in that way i wouldn't have had to waste seconds of my life writing this short message in response to you. (which is the only response you will ever recieve)

Get your edginess elsewhere, kid. Your post was full of erroneous facts and you got dunked for that for a reason.
Also, if you think that I'll be disappointed in your lack of response, you're mistaken.

I won't even mention the fact that the "please read" sentence was in a post not addressed to you.

[Deleted]

easier than Mu'ru, with far less annoying comp requirements.

m'uru was benching all healers that weren't shamans, you'd have one (maybe two druids & pala at most) priests were only there to handle the dispell and you used sp's for that reason. everyone with lw so they could 'drum' and then you chained heroism/bloodlusts

shamans with haste gems socketed everywhere were so superior to other healers during sunwell progression that it wasn't even funny.

and unlike what the previous poster claimed, no it wasn't hard to meet any 'dpscheck' in phase 1, or to kill the shitty packs that spawned at each of the openings to the room.

[Deleted]

I think one of the biggest issues with the KJ fight is the big Armageddon soaks. This mechanic at first glance appears to be for the tanks but because of the annoying overlaps you just have other people waste immunities to soak it. I know that Mythic added another big soak, but all that did was just make guilds now a days bring a third tank to handle one of the soaks while classes with immunities did the other. The first intermission is also incredibly boring. Now I only raid heroic (my brother is currently progressing through M KJ, so I do have some grasp on the fight) but the third phase of the fight imo is the only part that is designed well.

On the bright side, Argus looks like a really promising end boss. The phases appear to be different enough with some cool and even new mechanics, zero soaking from what I could see, and also appears to be a bit more forgiving than KJ. But we'll see, but I do like what I am seeing from the boss atm.

Big Armageddon soaks are a non issue.

Paladin hand of protection
3rd tank doing soaks
Mage iceblock
Rogue cheat
Demon hunter netherwalk
Hunter turtle

There's literally 0 chance the big Armageddon's will pose an issue to any semi serious guild.

[Varolyn]

Big Armageddon soaks are a non issue.

Paladin hand of protection
3rd tank doing soaks
Mage iceblock
Rogue cheat
Demon hunter netherwalk
Hunter turtle

There's literally 0 chance the big Armageddon's will pose an issue to any semi serious guild.

I wasn't talking about how big Armageddons are a problem difficulty wise, I'm talking about how they are a problem design wise. The dungeon journal implies that it should be soaked by tanks, but more often than not, it's soaked by people burning immunities for it.

[Deleted]

Thanks to titanforge, there are more efficient things to do in the loot-to-effort department ratio when you're concerned with next raid tier preparations than rekilling mythic KJ. Also KJ loot is very subpar, majority of his trinkets aren't even considered BIS within the tier (there are maybe few melee classes who benefit from specter, but not for all it's good).

At least Argus is looking much more promising with his goodies.

That is not a valid answer. Some items from the raid are far more powerful than any dungeon TF loot, not to mention M KJ items are much easier to get to 955 than any other loot in the game because it starts at 940. There's literally 0 semi serious to serious guilds that are not killing KJ because there's no mount to get.

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I wasn't talking about how big Armageddons are a problem difficulty wise, I'm talking about how they are a problem design wise. The dungeon journal implies that it should be soaked by tanks, but more often than not, it's soaked by people burning immunities for it.

Soaking has always been like that, group soaks for example, were almost always done by hunters, rogues just because it made it easier. Having the main tanks soaking the debuff and also tanking the boss prenerf would have been quite hard to pull off. Though yeah, blizzard should have put an active mitigation check into the soaking of the big Armageddon's.