Anyone else curious about 8.0 hunters?

[Emerald Archer]

Vuln is still a shit mechanic. If you want to attack anything, you still need to spend 2 GCDs before doing any damage, and movement can in some cases make those 2 GCDs totally wasted.

Hunters have always been about gameplay that has a smooth flow, currently only BM achieves this because it has no buffs/debuffs that it needs to track and play around.

Arms Warrior Colossus Smash is much better design than MM Vuln.

Yeah I agree that it's not good, but his issue with it, is non-existent. If people have a valid issue with it, sure, go bananas, complain, but yeah, his issue didn't exist.

[reimmi2016]

I do not need more buttons to press, I want few but meaningful ones. 7-8 buttons to dps is just tiresome. Give me 4 to dps and the rest can be for movement and defencives.

Survival as of now is not to my liking. Revert it back to the dot spec it was and I will be happy. Marksman needs to lose the vulnerable thingy. Not fun staring at that buff all the time to squize in aimed shots.

Beastmaster is ok atm, but the pet Ai needs some serious love. If I play bm in a bg it is more often than not my kill command will not go off.

More buttons doesn't have to mean rotation buttons.
E.G tranq shot, scare beast, snake trap, distracting shot, pet utility abilities like monkey stun, scorpid disarm,
i do however want marksman to go back to being a mobile ranged physical dps like it should be. its not a caster

[Deleted]

You're the one that started talking about comparing MM to BM, so you don't get to use the "fair" argument.

Wrong I didn't start it - I replied to somebody, who compared MM to BM, but even if that was not the case it doesn't change much about the fact that using amount of casts as the only metric doesn't make any sense.

I don't know what kind of sorcery you're using to get your downtime that high. I'm at 47.3% crit, I just simmed myself and I'm at an 11.75% downtime, or 7.05 seconds per minute. I would gain about 2.7 seconds of that back from my average latency.

Accidently simmed myself using Volley now my downtime is at 12.6%.

Amount of casts is by definition going to make a spec more active, as you're literally doing more actions in the same a mount of time.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word active as it isn't really meaningful to describe how well a spec plays. I was talking about smooth gameplay. You could have the most active spec with zero downtime pressing a single button, but I can't image anyone who'd really be into that. When it comes to smooth gameplay the amount of downtime is a deciding factor and easily quantifiable.

Fun is a buzzword that can't really be measured objectively, but if we're being subjective here, what is more fun: spamming arcane shot for focus, hitting marked shot, arcane shot again, casting 2 aimed shots and repeating, or unlimited mobility? There's a reason BM has 10k more mythic parses than marksman does, and is essentially equally represented on avatar and KJ despite it doing less dps.

You're right, what is fun is subjective, why are you trying to discuss what's more fun then. Besides having more parses doesn't prove anything on how much fun a spec is. I like to go BM, when I get a specific job on an encounter, which favors BM, if I am tilted or tired - doesn't mean I enjoy the spec. Furthermore it is much easier to learn to play BM at a decently high level and to gear or get decent legendaries. Which is why you see most people go BM during their split clears. Other people just like running arround with a pet or whatever. It doesn't mean BM hunter is objectively better.

But whatever is the case - I don't hate BM, I like to play it from time to time and I don't mind if it stays as it is and most importantly I don't have any anything against people, who prefer to play BM. At the same time you're not going to convince me to suddenly hate on MM. I like aiming my shots and casting hard hitting shots. Shooting some swirly green bullets that barely hit for anything or shouting at my pet doesn't keep me interested for a long time even if it means I have infinite movement.

[Emerald Archer]

You're the one that started talking about comparing MM to BM, so you don't get to use the "fair" argument. Also "while BM is just smash all of the buttons and fairly high downtime" describes almost every melee spec in the game. I don't know what kind of sorcery you're using to get your downtime that high. I'm at 47.3% crit, I just simmed myself and I'm at an 11.75% downtime, or 7.05 seconds per minute. I would gain about 2.7 seconds of that back from my average latency. Amount of casts is by definition going to make a spec more active, as you're literally doing more actions in the same a mount of time. Fun is a buzzword that can't really be measured objectively, but if we're being subjective here, what is more fun: spamming arcane shot for focus, hitting marked shot, arcane shot again, casting 2 aimed shots and repeating, or unlimited mobility? There's a reason BM has 10k more mythic parses than marksman does, and is essentially equally represented on avatar and KJ despite it doing less dps.

Don't mistake more parses on BM, for that meaning it's better. BM is the significantly easier spec, and makes mechanics faceroll. Therefore a lot of people play it. It was best at the end of NH, so a lot of hunters had gone it, and chose not to switch back, when MM became the better spec.

Because MM, mobility included, is the overall better spec in ToS, not by a huge amount, but it is definitely better.

You also have a strange idea of spamming, I did not know casting 2x arcane shot was spamming. So the rotation is "spam" arcane shot, marked shot, arcane shot, "spam" aimed shot?

Fun is down to the person, some people enjoy the challenge, enjoy being able to reach better numbers, enjoy pushing themselves to be the best they can for their team. Some people enjoy how the rotation is, or the unlimited mobility, the perfect consistency they will do mechanics with (lets be real, the extreme vast majority of BM, can't do mechanics even with that mobility, but i'm sure it's much better than if they were MM)

There isn't an argument here, the FACT is, MM is stronger in ToS, and looking to be stronger in Antorus, but BM is not far behind, and it is not "not viable" it's perfectly able to do the same level of content as MM is, MM just happens to be a little better. But they are BOTH viable in top end raiding.
And the fact is, spec enjoyment is personal, so if you choose your spec based on enjoyment, there's no argument there either, that's personal opinion. Varies person to person.

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you see that BM is much much much more active of a spec than MM

Active in terms of buttons pressed? Possibly, as MM casts, not sure how you could think to make that comparison? Instant vs casting.

Or in terms of how much of your time you spend doing damaging abilities, including when you are casting. If so, you're delusional if you think MM is less active. There is not a single second in a boss fight, where MM isn't using an ability, where as BM WILL have downtime. How much? I don't know, or care. But the fact is, MM never goes a second without casting or using an ability, and BM does.

[Eapoe]

Not to put a damper on this, but the thread is getting derailed talking about current viability/playability/fun when OP was asking about the next xpac.
On topic, I am waiting to see what happens. With Hati being removed, I wonder if Blizz will put in an option to have a 2nd pet out. Maybe not for double abilities, but would kind of be nice to have that "one with the animals vibe." Maybe even put in a talent that lets you swap which one is considered primary.
As far as MM, I personally would enjoy getting rid of Vulnerable. I don't find the spec fun and to be quite boring. Again, that is personal feeling and not wanting to start a debate about it. I'd also enjoy if maybe they could make AiS usable while moving. For obvious reasons, they would have to nerf the damage to compensate otherwise it would be the mandatory spec at all times due to scaling and mobility.
For SV, that's my big wait anticipation. I enjoy it being melee, and if they choose to leave it as such I hope they can prune some of it back (roll talents together such as FS/RS) and make ExT beneficial only as an AoE, where it does more damage if 3+ targets are affected but significantly less on 1. Get rid of so many AoE abilities that are also mandatory for ST. If they revert it, that is fine too as it was my favorite spec for Hunters since I started in Wrath.

[Deleted]

As long as MM doesn't get 100% mobility back, I'm fine with whatever they throw at us when 8.0 hits.

edit: and a smaller emphasis on Aimed Shot would be great too.

[TOM_RUS]

MM needs removal of Vulnerable and adding 100% mobility back. Then it would be perfect fun spec to play like it used to.

Vulnerable is punishing unfun mechanic, and with how immobile MM currently is it just ruins the spec.

Not to mention the need to stare at those WA's/addons all the time to track Vulnerable in order to play spec optimally is unacceptable design.

[Ladyoftheforest]

Vuln is still a shit mechanic. If you want to attack anything, you still need to spend 2 GCDs before doing any damage, and movement can in some cases make those 2 GCDs totally wasted.

Hunters have always been about gameplay that has a smooth flow, currently only BM achieves this because it has no buffs/debuffs that it needs to track and play around.

Arms Warrior Colossus Smash is much better design than MM Vuln.

Vulnerability is actually something I like and very marksmanship-like. I dont need all the specs in the class to be smooth or similar mechanic wise. I also don't want every spec to be as easy as BM. Oh my God, you need to track something, it's bad. Oh my God, I can't be a glass turret and need to move, it's bad. Oh my God I don't have smooth/instant aimed shot, it's bad! Oh my God, I need to slightly ramp up to see any damage, it's bad!

Can't wait to see what 8.0 has in store for all of us. One thing is for sure. I'm definately going to use the void subclass.

[threads]

they should do what they should've done to begin with and combine the best part of pre-legion mm and surv instead of this vuln tracker aimed shot spam.

[Retron]

Hopefully the return of raid buffs means that my wolf will once again bring a buff to the group. The current state of pet family abilities is shocking, I'm surprised that it's been left in such a way for so long!

[Darth Belichick]

I know they wanted to change how the specs played going into Legion, that was the goal. My question is, why did they all have to change? Why couldn't one of them stayed with using a cobra(or steady) shot being a 1.4ish cast time that gave focus regen and you still had aimed shot that was a cast, but usable on the move, etc. You could have kept that with one, and changed another, or something of the like.

I dunno. Sometimes they change too much for it's own good. MoP all the classes played kinda similar, but it was some of the most fun I had as a hunter. Class mechanics wise, anyway. (Especially with SoO tier bonuses.)

[Deleted]

it´s pretty simple, an marksman hunter is a "sniper" class, and you do not see snipers running around and dance at the same time as they are shooting, so of course you can get to play the specc that you´re enjoying the most.

[Donkeywing]

I know they wanted to change how the specs played going into Legion, that was the goal. My question is, why did they all have to change? Why couldn't one of them stayed with using a cobra(or steady) shot being a 1.4ish cast time that gave focus regen and you still had aimed shot that was a cast, but usable on the move, etc. You could have kept that with one, and changed another, or something of the like.

I've asked myself that same question for 2 years and the only possible conclusion is that they're stupid & fucked up hard.

The way you should imagine the class dev team is ppl working seperate from each other, refusing to criticize their own work and that of their collegues. I'm fairly sure they only work along certain rulesets (such as: max20 abilities for each spec) and the rest is FFA'd. You were able to physically see the result of that in 7.0 with SP for example. Everyone knew it was gonna be OP except the devs till 1 week before raid launch. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them were ''super excited'' about SV going melee.
Also for as much of a dick I think Azor is, at least hes man enough to take criticism & respond to shit. Go figure, this community is far more mature than the class dev team who hide behind huge HQ walls while preaching about inclusiveness, diversity & community. And when the nerds come marching in on blizzcon they have to strictly moderate the Q&A sessions, fucking hilarious. I can name at least 5 hunters I would rather see designing the future of this class on their own than leaving it in the hands of incompetents, and thats saying something.

Also seeing how some abilities are slowly returning (traps, tranq, aspect) is just mind blowing, especially how it litteraly takes them years to do so and they can't even come up with something new in its place apparently. If some fucking thought went into this before they butchered half the spellbook that wouldve been nice. Also funny; I litteraly posted this as feedback during alpha with those exact abilities - my only serious post in there.

an marksman hunter is a "sniper" class

Shut the fuck up.

[De Lupe]

I wouldn't mind them smoothing Survival out a bit so it's not a clusterfuck of things to have to keep track applying, but I really am happy with Hunters as they are right now. I do hope we get to keep Hati. I like having two beasts.

[ozusteapot]

I really hope they work some more on all 3 specs. Of course I'd love old survival back too.
Marksmanship's meme build was very fun, but that lasted only during Nighthold (of course you can still use it today, but it isn't the top build that it used to be). I hope they manage to create something similarly engaging for pure single target as well. Marked shot, arcane shot and 2x aimed shot was one of the big reasons I decided to take a break from mythic raiding (and the game altogether).
I would really love castable focus generators to make a comeback as well, very much so.

[Nythiz]

MM needs removal of Vulnerable and adding 100% mobility back. Then it would be perfect fun spec to play like it used to.

Vulnerable is punishing unfun mechanic, and with how immobile MM currently is it just ruins the spec.

Not to mention the need to stare at those WA's/addons all the time to track Vulnerable in order to play spec optimally is unacceptable design.

I disagree with most of these points actually.

Having full mobility as an option through talents would be OK, similar to the old survival spec (and somewhat similar to the current meme spec, only better worked out).
But it shouldn't be the "main" way to go. Instant aimed shots was fun for a while, but it lowers the skill ceiling for MM by a ton.
Having to time your movement and think ahead in fights to have good positioning and good timing is what ranged classes should be about. I personally find the dps progression from getting the timings right and getting familiar with the spec and rotation to react to events; to be much more satisfying than being 100% mobile and there being a very diminished skill cap where nearly all MM hunters do the same dps.
Would be nice to have as an option though for those very mobile fights or certain progression fights.

Vulnerable is fine. Most dps classes have secondary resource system to manage and vulnerability definitely isn't one of the worst among those.
The only major problem I have with vulnerable is that it's reliant on a proc mechanic to work. Generally that works fine; but at times, especially in M+, there are these drought streaks where your damage is just limping because the Marking Targets proc simply WILL NOT PROC.

Other than that the method of application can use some itteration. Using 2 GCDs to apply vulnerable might not be the best gameplay mechanic; although a lot of that currently is alleviated by the fact that marked shot hits really hard and you can often open up with Windburst.

As someone said before though, if you stare at your weak auras / vulnerable bar to do your rotation you're doing it wrong.
When you start out, you might need that information to confirm you're doing things right. But once you've rolled into the rotation you can do it blindly, as the rotation really doesn't change at all outside of bloodlust/trueshot.

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As for what would I like to see in 8.0.

BM:
I'm quite happy with this spec currently. Removing Hati won't be a big issue and making Dire Frenzy baseline over Dire Beasts is a good move IMO.

What I would like to see is a bit more damage being brought back to the hunter. Currently all the hunter is really doing is cobra shot, the pet takes care of the rest.
Also the spec might benefit from adding something that increases the skill ceiling, e.g. by adding a secondary resource. Dire Frenzy sort of has that baked in with the DF stacks you want to keep up as much as possible, but that's rather simplistic and could be expanded upon (or have something different altogether).

MM:
I also don't think this spec is too far off.
Personally I would like a more fleshed out mobile option through talents, where that choice serves as an alternative for hectic mobile fights (especially on progression, so you don't have to resort to BM) and mythic+ dungeons. Quite like the current meme-spec, but I feel like that was more of a coincidence of talents working out well rather than a designed mobile alternative.

SV:
This spec needs the most work, but then again it's also the newest.

I've been playing around with this for a while now, and I actually have some gear that isn't too bad for it (high haste, lower mastery). And it's not too bad to play; but the rotation still needs help. It needs to flow more, have more synergy and not be these 2 disconnected rotations where in one you apply dots and in the other you spam mongoose bite.

The spec isn't half bad, but the mongoose fury mechanic just needs to change and skills need to synergize more among one another. (Currently flanking strike is the only skill that has some cross interaction)

[Lodvampire]

I wish i was be there at Q&A panel, just to ask only one thing: When we gonna get more stable slots? Seriously, was back in cata they add more slots?
It's just the reason my first and main char is a hunter, pets. I still got my first pet i got as a level 1 Nelf, i never gonna leave him, and a bunch of others that ins't able to catch anymore, like that Vicidus look-a -like. It will super cool if we can get a journal, just like mounts and battle pets to replace stables, sure you still able to carry only 5 five to change out in the world.
Of course, for class fantasy and stuff its weird for you to have like 1k pets (all skins of all famillys included) storage in somewhere just waiting to come along with you, but lets face, some people like me already got 20 in stable + 5 carry all the time. Its realy sad to see all this cool new pets blizz bring patch after patch, and I just don't want to abbandon my favorites old ones, just imagine if we just have 25 slots for mounts.

[Eggshells01]

Hoping for some Surv changes to make smoother. Hopefully we get to see more about class ability changes soon!

[Deleted]

lets hope blizzard makes hunter great again, like in MoP where specs where fun......

[Deleted]

i do however want marksman to go back to being a mobile ranged physical dps like it should be. its not a caster

I totally disagree. It does not make sense for a marksman hunter to be the most mobile thing in the game. As a marksman you should be punished for moving - marksmen should not to massive damage on the move, they should want to sit still and do large slow casts, from a thematic perspective.

MM is really solid right now, imo. It flows well, feels good, has a good element of skill involved. BM is awful right now, too much downtime, boring to play, very very low skill ceiling.

MM being insanely mobile like in the past never made sense for the class. This expansion has been great, now just make lone wolf automatic upon picking MM so we actually get to pick a tier one talent and I'll be over the moon.

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MM:
I also don't think this spec is too far off.
Personally I would like a more fleshed out mobile option through talents, where that choice serves as an alternative for hectic mobile fights (especially on progression, so you don't have to resort to BM) and mythic+ dungeons.

If you have to respec bm for progression fights then you're just bad at mm.