So Sylvanas is an usurper to the Horde?

[Thelxi]

I think it is pretty clear from the cinematic that not only is Sylvanas warchief but she even inspires the people. Look at the orc's reaction after she screams "for the horde". Blizzard's intentions became clear to me when I saw that.

[Zulkhan]

He also told Horde that "spirits" that whispered to dying Vol'jin were sent by her to play the whole trick.

He literally said nothing of the kind. If anything, while he may have proved to know his shit when it came to the whole Stormwind stuff, he equally proved to know nothing about the circumstances of Sylvanas' rise to power. The preview of the upcoming novel sealed the deal on that, undeniably proving Varimathras being completely full of shit when it comes to that precise matter.

Sylvanas, for her flaws, is the Warchief of the Horde. It was Vol'jin's right to designate her, for whatever reason he did so, and it is her right to rule. It's the Horde -- if someone wants to be Warchief instead of her, they can challenge her and take the mantle if they can.

Pretty much /thread.

[Grimo]

Looks like lying demons have tendency to be absolutely honest. Thank you Varimathras, for spoiling the next expansion to us. He told Alliance that Sylv is planning to attack Stormwind - exactly what was happening. He also told Horde that "spirits" that whispered to dying Vol'jin were sent by her to play the whole trick. So aren't Horde going to commune with his spirit on Zandalar and go find out? What then? Impeachment? She lost her capital and continent, Horde's victory in Kalimdor is work of orcs, talking cows, trolls and goblins. What base she has to remain in charge? Looks like good old Thrall is back as warchief? At least he is well at main characters list. Wouldn't that be a great irony if he, in the end, will be killed by Jaina? Of all people...

You need to go look up the word 'usurper'.

[MatadorMedia]

Varimathras is unreliable. You can't base a valid argument around a dreadlord's taunts. Get real.

[steelballfc]

I think it is pretty clear from the cinematic that not only is Sylvanas warchief but she even inspires the people. Look at the orc's reaction after she screams "for the horde". Blizzard's intentions became clear to me when I saw that.

it's only because Saurfang turn into "mel gibson saving private Sylvanas Saurfang " and charged nearly killing the king.

[Explorer]

Varimathras is unreliable. You can't base a valid argument around a dreadlord's taunts. Get real.

Well one of his taunts turned out to be abssssolutely truth. Is there no point to at least consider the second one?

[LaserChild9]

He also told Horde that "spirits" that whispered to dying Vol'jin were sent by her to play the whole trick. So aren't Horde going to commune with his spirit on Zandalar and go find out?.

Uh... No

She laughed, sharpy and without humor. "Baine and Saurang and the others say I have not been giving them enough attention. My people say I have been giving them too much. Whatever I do, someone objects. How can anyone rule like this?" She shook her pale head. "A curse upon Vol'jin and his loa. I should have stayed in the shadows, where I could be effective without being interrogated."

Thats from the excerpt of the new book. So Sylvanas did not want the leadership nor did she try to get it through deception.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=275306/b...mpler-spoilers

[Stormdash]

I liked that "for the Horde" moment. If you had only the cinematic where she is made Warchief and this one to go on, you could get the impressions she really has bought in, come out of the shadows, has an investment in the world beyond the Forsaken. And from the Horde-side of Broken Shore, even a broader investment since she seemed to have genuine regret at having to abandon the Alliance and her possible work-spouse/let's-have-angry-fanfic-sex-later-partner Varian.

But all that is pretty sharply undercut by the novel excerpt and makes her moment in the cinematic feel like a put-on.

Honestly, Thrall would probably have to come back if she were to be removed because not sure who else could challenge her in single combat and win on the Horde-side. And he would have to use his full kit like he did with Garrosh and without being a baby about it.

[Zulkhan]

But all that is pretty sharply undercut by the novel excerpt and makes her moment in the cinematic feel like a put-on.

I wasn't bothered by the novel preview because I always expect from Sylvanas that cutting edge of her, harboring cynical thoughts, bitter feelings and all that stuff. It's just part of her character. Still, I nonetheless see a solid consistency in her portrayal and I have yet to see something that feels really "off" to me.

[Kgmck177]

Sylvanas doesn't care much for the other races of the Horde as a whole, but she knows she needs them and their ability to fight and so she has to act a certain way to maintain their loyalty. Predictably the orcs follow anyone who can kill people and shout really loud.

[Zulkhan]

Sylvanas doesn't care much for the other races of the Horde as a whole, but she knows she needs them and their ability to fight and so she has to act a certain way to maintain their loyalty.

Which is a good example of why a little bit of deception can be more reasonably useful than Garrosh's reckless bluntness.

[Graden]

"The usurper Robb Stark, the usurper Balon Greyjoy, the usurper Joffrey Baratheon."

Sorry, I couldn't ressist. Every time I see the word usurper Stannis the Mannis comes to mind.

[Combatbutler]

Which is a good example of why a little bit of deception can be more reasonably useful than Garrosh's reckless bluntness.

Yeah if Garrosh hadn't been so foolish he could have had his cake and eat it too. He was just too blunt for his own good and too stuck in his ways.

[Xorn]

Who is more trustworthy? A Demon who gave a spot on prediction or a murderous psychopath who is know for chemical attacks, ignoring orders and rules, and tried to enslave a race for her own immortality?

I guess if you don't mind playing cannon fodder (Assuming you're a Orc player, going by sig and avatar) while her people stays safely away from the fighting...I guess go ahead and do as you see fit?

I mean, if she's known for it, it's not that much of a prediction, now is it?

But if you wanna trust a dreadlord, a race of people know for their lies and manipulation, be my guest.

[Arrashi]

Yeah if Garrosh hadn't been so foolish he could have had his cake and eat it too. He was just too blunt for his own good and too stuck in his ways.

But that more than anything proves that sylvanas isn't villain. She uses common sense !

[Xorn]

Well one of his taunts turned out to be abssssolutely truth. Is there no point to at least consider the second one?

That's how liars work. They mix their lies with enough truth so that you assume everything they're saying is true

[Combatbutler]

But that more than anything proves that sylvanas isn't villain. She uses common sense !

Just because her brain works from time to time, doesn't mean she isn't a nasty piece of work ;P

I'll be honest I didn't expect Lordaeron to fall to the Alliance. But ultimately nothing much can come of it, Alliance and horde are necessary for WoW to function after all.

[Zulkhan]

Yeah if Garrosh hadn't been so foolish he could have had his cake and eat it too. He was just too blunt for his own good and too stuck in his ways.

Indeed. Sylvanas already learned that adaptation is vital for her role, as well trying to understand the feelings, concerns and potential disagreements of the people around her. She even considered the creation of the Desolate Council as something "not unreasonable" despite not really appreciating their disagreement about immortality.

She proved to be a decently perceptible character where Garrosh thought he could solve all of his problems with a few hollow speeches and tons of fearmongering.

But that more than anything proves that sylvanas isn't villain. She uses common sense !

Well, I always considered SoO the culmination of Garrosh's stupidity rather than malice.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas's Story is just going nowhere anymore. They can either redeem her, which is probably what she tried to do in stormheim

She tried to enslave even more people in Stormheim, just so she can get more 1-Ups. How is that redeeming?

[Zeraiya]

Sylvanas's Story is just going nowhere anymore. They can either redeem her, which is probably what she tried to do in stormheim, or they can kill her off. But a civilisation that needs others to die to keep itself going has no future. Even if she killed all humans and members of the Alliance and turned them into Forsaken, the Horde will know that ultimatly, she'll turn on them too. So they will get rid of her way befor she can actually pose a threat to the Alliance. Or they completly rewrite her character. Again.

The thing that confuses me the most is... why Does Sylvanus want to continue the Forsaken race. The whole main purpose of the Forsaken in the beginning was that they were a race of dead people with nowhere to go because they weren't re-accepted by the old races/factions. The Forsaken weren't a race until the Scourge, and even then they existed out of tragedy. Why on Earth does Sylvanus, who hates having been turned, want to continue this legacy? Her people are destined to die out, eventually, because they are not a race to begin with (technically speaking).

The Forsaken aren't a species, they're the sad (as in, actually sad) remains of war with nowhere to go. Why would Sylvanus want to kill more people to have in the ranks of undeath? Purely just to have her own army? Then she's an insane genocidal maniac. If she just wants to raise the dead as Forsaken to have not lost good soldiers/people, then I'm sure you can get people to volunteer to be raised as Undead... can't see everyone saying no to a second life... don't try and take a demigod and force her into servitude to raise unwilling people from the dead. What the f***. Her character is split in two, and it feels like she has two different writers wanting to give her an identity.

Pick a side - is she a crazy leader hellbent on genocide to build an army, or is she a tortured ruler who is trying to do right by her wronged people.