Raid bosses - change or do not change?

[Drefan]

When Vanilla came out everything was new, the raids were hard and we saw some of bosses being alive for a long period of time(sometimes due to them being unkillable before nerf). Now that we're going back into vanilla on official wow servers, would it be a good idea to update boss fights to make them more challening for todays playerbase? Before you say "fuck that" just hear me out.

I realize that it could still be considered hard for some people but in all honestly every tactic is already out there and one of the best things about vanilla progression was figuring out how to beat a boss.
Content in legion is beaten at a fast pace, only mythic have a chance of being uncleared for a while, especially for the avg player. With that in mind, would it be a good idea for Blizzard to redesign boss fights and add mechanics to reflect the 2017 era of wow players rather than 2004-07 era? With this ensuring that these large raids feel as epic as they did back in the good old days.

[jackofwind]

The answer is as follows to all these threads:

Don't fucking change things because then it's not Vanilla anymore.

If you want to play something other than an actual iteration of Vanilla that existed at some point, with modern tweaks and changes and QoL additions, go play Live.

Re-balanced, re-tooled, re-tweaked Classic is not Classic.

[Azadina]

Should epics shower all over the place along with lootbox legendaries, to reflect the 2017 era?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

As you see here, there are a lot of close minded people who will discuss this topic, but frankly they are right on this one. You can not change mechanics of bosses and still call it Classic, but the fact that people cleared KT on Anathema in one reset WITH NO WORLD BUFFS tells you the OP is right.

This shit is gonna be a romp if serious guilds end up playing. They will clear every raid in one night and then what? Playing a 14 year old product really does not breed competition. Think there is gonna be a LOT of casuals on this realm and that's that.

[Drefan]

Should epics shower all over the place along with lootbox legendaries, to reflect the 2017 era?

Nothing would be changed regarding loot, only harder boss mechanics.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

If they started changing boss mechanics than it wouldn't be Vanilla anymore.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

The answer is as follows to all these threads:

Don't fucking change things because then it's not Vanilla anymore.

If you want to play something other than an actual iteration of Vanilla that existed at some point, with modern tweaks and changes and QoL additions, go play Live.

Re-balanced, re-tooled, re-tweaked Classic is not Classic.

The point that you will have to come to realize and will likely be a rude awakening for you at some point is that a developer might heavily disagree with you. You see, what Classic really is is specific to how the classes played, the dungeons and raids were integrated into the progression and how the story and leveling progressed.

Changing things that don't remove those elements does not mean its not classic any more, and I think you will come to find that is the approach they may take when making these things. They won't change things that only exist in Classic like removing Ragnaros or giving Paladins Divine Storm, because those are what makes it Classic.

The tech associated with it and the functionality of the content is something that we should expect change in, because those things are just 2004. There were limitations back then that don't exist now.

So in this case, re-tweaked Classic is still classic. They aren't giving you a time machine to go back in time to when they had no idea what they were doing with the game's development.

TLDR - how the classes play and the content you do is what Classic is, period.

[Azadina]

As you see here, there are a lot of close minded people who will discuss this topic, but frankly they are right on this one. You can not change mechanics of bosses and still call it Classic, but the fact that people cleared KT on Anathema in one reset WITH NO WORLD BUFFS tells you the OP is right.

This shit is gonna be a romp if serious guilds end up playing. They will clear every raid in one night and then what? Playing a 14 year old product really does not breed competition. Think there is gonna be a LOT of casuals on this realm and that's that.

Then what? Do you think everytime a world top guild clears content, the game ends for all raiders? Raiders play just to get the first kill, and after kill is made, everyone quits?

I mean...I never saw that happen in over a decade of playing.

In short: completely irrelevant what world top guilds do or don't. It affects no one.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Then what? Do you think everytime a world top guild clears content, the game ends for all raiders? Raiders play just to get the first kill, and after kill is made, everyone quits?

I mean...I never saw that happen in over a decade of playing.

huh? I said there will be no competitive scene like there is in WoW. What was I unclear on? I didn't say guilds raiding 2 nights a week wont exist.

[jackofwind]

The point that you will have to come to realize and will likely be a rude awakening for you at some point is that a developer might heavily disagree with you. You see, what Classic really is is specific to how the classes played, the dungeons and raids were integrated into the progression and how the story and leveling progressed.

Changing things that don't remove those elements does not mean its not classic any more, and I think you will come to find that is the approach they may take when making these things. They won't change things that only exist in Classic like removing Ragnaros or giving Paladins Divine Storm, because those are what makes it Classic.

The tech associated with it and the functionality of the content is something that we should expect change in, because those things are just 2004. There were limitations back then that don't exist now.

So in this case, re-tweaked Classic is still classic. They aren't giving you a time machine to go back in time to when they had no idea what they were doing with the game's development.

TLDR - how the classes play and the content you do is what Classic is, period.

Which is, essentially, what I said. Any changes other than technical ones are going to pervert what Classic is.

[Deleted]

Changing a few things definitely doesn't stop Classic from being Vanilla. You still have to farm pre-raid for consumables etc, you still NEED to farm resistance gear, you STILL need to farm dungeons for your bis. Literally nothing people have asked for will change Vanilla away from being Vanilla.

However, I disagree that the raids need to be changed. The nostalgia crowd will realise that Vanilla definitely does not house the hardest bosses in WoW history.

[jackofwind]

Nothing would be changed regarding loot, only harder boss mechanics.

If the boss fights are different from what they were in Classic then they're not the Classic fights anymore.

This shit is not hard to understand.

[Drefan]

As you see here, there are a lot of close minded people who will discuss this topic, but frankly they are right on this one. You can not change mechanics of bosses and still call it Classic, but the fact that people cleared KT on Anathema in one reset WITH NO WORLD BUFFS tells you the OP is right.

This shit is gonna be a romp if serious guilds end up playing. They will clear every raid in one night and then what? Playing a 14 year old product really does not breed competition. Think there is gonna be a LOT of casuals on this realm and that's that.

Yeah I realize that and therefor would redisgned boss fights with all the vanilla values be a good thing for the game or not? For me its a yes but at the same time I understand why people want it exactly the same and I cannot blame them for it. I just felt it could be a lot cooler if it was actually hard instead of a roll over loot pinata with cool designed raid enviroments.

[jackofwind]

Yeah I realize that and therefor would redisgned boss fights with all the vanilla values be a good thing for the game or not? For me its a yes but at the same time I understand why people want it exactly the same and I cannot blame them for it. I just felt it could be a lot cooler if it was actually hard instead of a roll over loot pinata with cool designed raid enviroments.

Why would you change boss mechanics instead of just playing new bosses on Live.

The entire point of a Classic server is to re-play Classic. Changing it from what it was makes it not Classic anymore.

[Teri]

Preparation was half the vanilla experience.

And I don't talk starting in 1.12 since things got changed over time.


1.11 :

Class specific armor quests given by the Zandalarian trolls of Yojamba Isle no longer require Bijous or coins for completion. Armor quests now only require a Primal Hakkari piece and appropriate faction with Zandalar.

Class specific enchantments given by Zanza the Restless no longer require Arcanum (Librams) from Dire Maul. The requirements have been changed to items found within Zul'Gurub. Speak with Zanza the Restless for more information.

Also loot drops got updated multiple times, 1.10 buffed a lot of blue items and reduced most dungeons to 5 man as a result.

Conclusion:

The true 1.1 to 1.12 journey will never be the same.

[Azadina]

huh? I said there will be no competitive scene like there is in WoW. What was I unclear on? I didn't say guilds raiding 2 nights a week wont exist.

->

As you see here, there are a lot of close minded people who will discuss this topic, but frankly they are right on this one. You can not change mechanics of bosses and still call it Classic, but the fact that people cleared KT on Anathema in one reset WITH NO WORLD BUFFS tells you the OP is right.

This shit is gonna be a romp if serious guilds end up playing. They will clear every raid in one night and then what? Playing a 14 year old product really does not breed competition. Think there is gonna be a LOT of casuals on this realm and that's that.

Maybe you should attempt to explain what relevance it has for literally everyone else, if top guild joins server to clear content in one night. Why is that of any concern?

Again, do you believe the game ends then and there?

[Drefan]

Why would you change boss mechanics instead of just playing new bosses on Live.

Because I still consider vanilla to be the superior product and I will play it regardless.

The entire point of a Classic server is to re-play Classic. Changing it from what it was makes it not Classic anymore.

Well classic was classic because if its core values, not because Boss X did A, B in p1 and D, E in p2.
Would harder bosses take away from a "classic" experience?
I dont really think so, sure the game is altered in the boss design aspect, but would in my opinion become a superior product because contet would reflect vanilla in the sense that its not a loot pinata but you actually had to progress bosses for a long time before they died, atleast the avg guilds.

[jackofwind]

Because I still consider vanilla to be the superior product and I will play it regardless.

Well classic was classic because if its core values, not because Boss X did A, B in p1 and D, E in p2.
Would harder bosses take away from a "classic" experience?
I dont really think so, sure the game is altered in the boss design aspect, but would in my opinion become a superior product because contet would reflect vanilla in the sense that its not a loot pinata but you actually had to progress bosses for a long time before they died, atleast the avg guilds.

No, Classic was Classic because it was the iteration of the game that existed at that time. It was the sum total of all the components of the game at that time. Harder bosses, different bosses, re-balanced specs would change the integral way that Classic played and therefore it would not be Classic anymore.

If you go back and change MegaMan 3 to make it harder because it's too easy then it's not actually MegaMan 3 anymore.

[Drefan]

No, Classic was Classic because it was the iteration of the game that existed at that time. It was the sum total of all the components of the game at that time. Harder bosses, different bosses, re-balanced specs would change the integral way that Classic played and therefore it would not be Classic anymore.

If you go back and change MegaMan 3 to make it harder because it's too easy then it's not actually MegaMan 3 anymore.

Well yes obv, but its the core gameplay that made you fall in love with vanilla, not the fact that Nefarian's class call broke hunter bows.

[jackofwind]

Well yes obv, but its the core gameplay that made you fall in love with vanilla, not the fact that Nefarian's class call broke hunter bows.

And yet that's still an integral part of the nuance of that encounter, which is an integral part of BWL, which is an integral part of Classic. Same with the variable immunities of the dragonkin mobs before Chromaggus, and the requirement that Viscidus in AQ40 be hit with Frost attacks in order to be killed.

All of that shit adds up, and paring any of it down chips away at the foundation of the things that make Classic what it is.