Poll: Who started the Battle for Azeroth?

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  1. #61
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kcin14 View Post
    We already know that the Alliance attacked first when Genn shot at the Horde in Stormheim. The factions were at peace again following the Siege of Orgrimmar and were working together on the Broken Shore. Those shots fired in Stormheim were the first of the war, as to which side escalates it into another World War by attacking a major city remains to be seen.
    If you played a rogue in Legion, you'd know that SI6 was infiltrated by a Dreadlord who fed misleading "intelligence" to Genn and Anduin. And of course we all know Sylvanas was up to something in Stormheim that was probably best interrupted anyway, so it may have worked out for the best. Regardless of that, I suspect we'll find a 3rd party behind it all yet again.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Well, that is another debate entirely, but with all of the information that we do have the fact is this was handled poorly by the Horde (and, yes, the Alliance). Be that because of poor writing or not is irrelevant.

    It's just hypocritical to say Genn and Varian did something stupid when the Horde did something equally as stupid.
    I am not saying that there weren't others who couldn't have handled things a bit better, but the blame really is not equal. It is contingent on a single individual misinterpretting events because of his bias and hatred towards Sylvanas.

    Broken shore was a military disaster. Both the alliance and horde were forced to run with their tails between their legs, and before they even had a chance to collect themselves they were attacked back at home by the demons.

    The Horde had no reason to believe that the Alliance was blaming them for Varian's death, anymore than the Horde felt the need to blame the Alliance for Vol'jin's death.

    The problem is that Genn, because of his intense hatred of Sylvanas, saw what happened and immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion. He failed to take the time and effort to consider the possibility that maybe the Horde was overwhelmed, something he should have done when he received the news of Vol'jin's death. And he then acted upon it by firstly giving his (false) account of what happened to Anduin, and then outright attacking Sylvanas. Yes, yes, of course in his mind his attacks on the Forsaken were totally justified, but really, they weren't.



    As for who escalated the conflict for BfA, here is my prediction:

    I am guessing that Teldrassil is probably going torched by a third party and it will be blamed on the Horde. Genn being Genn takes the bait and uses it as the final motivation to reclaim Lordaeron. Bear in mind that Stormwind already regards Lordaeron as rightfully belonging to the humans. Given that Anduin is already primed to believe that Sylvanas betrayed his father, he is manipulated into believing that the alliance is justified in marching on Lordaeron.

  3. #63
    Old God -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I am not saying that there weren't others who couldn't have handled things a bit better, but the blame really is not equal.
    Indeed. Except I would actually argue the blame is more on the Horde side...

    Genn may be a warmongering idiot, but any war council that doesn't consider it might be a good idea to maybe, just maybe communicate to their allies why they had to make a tactical retreat during combat is not much better. They're worse. Unless their ultimate goal was to get back to war with the Alliance, in which case well played.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    In Aszuna, an Alliance quest finds intel strongly suggesting Sylvanas is up to no good in Stormheim, "stealing powe for herselfr" and whatnot, which is why Greymane goes after her.
    When you regard Sylvanas as evil, as Genn does, then anything Sylvanas does to advance her cause can be defined as "no good".

    Quite frankly, what Sylvanas was up to was none of Genn's business. It didn't affect the Alliance at all. Genn's interference was not about "doing the right thing". It was entirely about throwing a spanner in Sylvanas's plans. She was responsible for his son's death, so this was for him nothing more than revenge, plain and simple. It was an act of war against the Forsaken and the Horde.

    Sure, he felt justified. But objectively, no he wasn't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Indeed. Except I would actually argue the blame is more on the Horde side...
    I'm sorry, but I really am not understanding your justification for this conclusion...

    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Genn may be a warmongering idiot, but any war council that doesn't consider it might be a good idea to maybe, just maybe communicate to their allies why they had to make a tactical retreat during combat is not much better. They're worse. Unless their ultimate goal was to get back to war with the Alliance, in which case well played.
    The only way this perspective makes any sense is if the Horde was aware of Genn's account of events and there is no evidence that would've been.

    The Horde and Alliance were never allies. They were "my enemy's enemy" in the encounter on the Broken Shore. Both responded independently to the crisis and sent their forces, but it was never a co-ordinated campaign. Sure, they both acted sensibly when seeing each other there, and decided to work together, but there was never any communication between them to co-ordinate things. They simply took the cues as they presented themselves. In the aftermath the Horde beat a retreat back home to lick their wounds and bury their warchief. It's totally understandable that sending envoys to the Alliance to ask: "hey, I hope you didn't misinterpret our retreat as just leaving you to die" wasn't at the top of their list of priorities.

    Sorry, but there is no way that this makes them anywhere near as accountable for the escalation as the Genn.

    You are correct that after Broken Shore, the Alliance and Horde should have spoken to other to form a war council to plan the next move together (instead of each doing their own thing). Of course any attempted dialogue would have opened with Genn outright accusing Sylvanas of engineering Varian's death, but at least it would have opened up an opportunity for the truth to come out. Not that I think Genn would have been particularly receptive....

  5. #65
    Mechagnome Skoll Shorties's Avatar
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    At least spell, "HORDE" correctly. Jeeze. Also, for the "HORDE".
    Also, it's "Alliance"...

    "Only Beasts are above deceit" - Rexxar

  6. #66
    I think it's a 2 fold attack - STORMWIND first (based on the Before the storm(?) book and Anduin yelling for Stormwind in the Cinematic), then Teldrassil and the Alliance finally says F YOU B***H! and lay siege to Lorderon.
    "The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it" - George Orwell

  7. #67
    Deleted
    It has been going on ever since the portal was opened for the 1st time...

    there was a movie about it in 2017; it didn't exactly match the lore, but it will explain the gist of it just fine. :P

    The real answer here is: We don't know which skirmish specifically started the post-Argus conflict. I'm still going with the theory that it happened while we were on Argus...

  8. #68
    Old God -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The only way this perspective makes any sense is if the Horde was aware of Genn's account of events and there is no evidence that would've been.
    I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. What the bloody hell would you expect them to think when the Horde retreats without saying anything? Look, this is not a faction bias thing. I think Genn is an idiot, I think the Alliance played their hand poorly, and I think it was a disaster on their part. But to try and claim the Horde is blameless and not responsible for the Alliance's perspective is lunacy.
    The Horde and Alliance were never allies.
    It was a fragile alliance, but it was an alliance nonetheless. Covering the flank of another army is what an ally does.

    Look, I'm not too interested in spiraling this thread down this direction since it's been argued to death since Legion came out, so I'll go ahead and stop here, but just consider what would happen if this scenario were to occur with real life armies. It would not be pretty, because there is this little thing called diplomacy.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by lios View Post
    Hi there. Can I ask why you call it Hoard?
    i'm bad at spelling? ^_^

  10. #70
    What doesnt make sense is why Burn down Teldrassil AT ALL? What could possibly be the reason behind that? Had it been Sylvanas's order, she would have sieged Gilneas first. Nor does it make any sense for the orcs to burn it down either.

  11. #71
    Pretty much confirmed Teldrassil is burned first by the interviews.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarh View Post
    For Horde players: the Alliance attacks first. And vice versa

    It's why the cinematic is unspecific and why they're putting so much emphasis on the "mystery". The answer will not be the same for everyone.
    I'd say you're actually onto something. In the end we'll learn the Old Gods played both sides. My money in case Alliance shot first is that Anduin started listeing to some whispers that made him do most stupid shit in history of Stormwind since King Llane trusted Garona. If the Horde attacked on the other hand, I would think it was a false-flag operation instigated by Old Gods.

    Not that I don't think Horde wouldn't be capable of pulling it on their own, or being led astray with some whispering like Anduin, but we have Sylvanas for Warchief. Unlike Anduin she's calculating, patient, vindictive for sure, but never impulsive. She went through her own baptism by fire during the destuction of Quel'Thalas. It would seem rather dumb for her to instigate a war with Alliance that she is not certain to win. Destroying Teldrassil is basicly Pearl Harbor. Sure, looks nice when you set it up in flames, but the consequences are rather dire in comparison.

    But we'll see. Once we actually have more information, we can see if it's actually thought out or just Blizzard trying to wing it.

    As for that infamous gamespot interview, here's the actual link, and the relevant part:
    I feel like the Horde and the Alliance have actually been getting closer and closer together, but Battle for Azeroth pushes the two sides apart again. It's really focusing on that original faction experience. But what was the impetus to separate the two again?

    John Hight: As they have been historically right? They'll come together, they'll fight a common foe, and then their rift will form. And this is a pretty big rift that occurred during Legion. It was kind of an uncomfortable alliance between the Alliance and Horde to defeat a common foe, the Legion. But now that the Legion is defeated--spoilers but I think everyone knows that at some point we're going to end the expansion--things happen that left scars between the two sides. And then things happen in the opening of Battle for Azeroth that cement it. Some of the imagery that you'll see is the scene is with Sylvanas standing in front Teldrassil on fire. Then with the opening cinematic, that event was right before the Alliance finally says, "Okay, we've had it" before they assault Lordaeron. So some pretty heavy stuff is going to happen between them. And we just felt like this would be a really cool time to go back into that age old battle between Alliance and Horde.
    You can read the rest for yourself: http://archive.is/mEjPz

    What is clear though form his answer is that the dev is describing the order of cinematics being shown at Blizzcon, not the actual order of events taking place. Most likely, because the interview was conducted before those cinematics were shown, and published day later.
    Last edited by Astalnar; 2017-11-07 at 03:46 PM. Reason: update

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I am not saying that there weren't others who couldn't have handled things a bit better, but the blame really is not equal. It is contingent on a single individual misinterpretting events because of his bias and hatred towards Sylvanas.

    Broken shore was a military disaster. Both the alliance and horde were forced to run with their tails between their legs, and before they even had a chance to collect themselves they were attacked back at home by the demons.

    The Horde had no reason to believe that the Alliance was blaming them for Varian's death, anymore than the Horde felt the need to blame the Alliance for Vol'jin's death.

    The problem is that Genn, because of his intense hatred of Sylvanas, saw what happened and immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion. He failed to take the time and effort to consider the possibility that maybe the Horde was overwhelmed, something he should have done when he received the news of Vol'jin's death. And he then acted upon it by firstly giving his (false) account of what happened to Anduin, and then outright attacking Sylvanas. Yes, yes, of course in his mind his attacks on the Forsaken were totally justified, but really, they weren't.



    As for who escalated the conflict for BfA, here is my prediction:

    I am guessing that Teldrassil is probably going torched by a third party and it will be blamed on the Horde. Genn being Genn takes the bait and uses it as the final motivation to reclaim Lordaeron. Bear in mind that Stormwind already regards Lordaeron as rightfully belonging to the humans. Given that Anduin is already primed to believe that Sylvanas betrayed his father, he is manipulated into believing that the alliance is justified in marching on Lordaeron.
    This seems like the most likely senerio ive hear yet ^_^

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Kcin14 View Post
    We already know that the Alliance attacked first when Genn shot at the Horde in Stormheim. The factions were at peace again following the Siege of Orgrimmar and were working together on the Broken Shore. Those shots fired in Stormheim were the first of the war, as to which side escalates it into another World War by attacking a major city remains to be seen.
    i wouldnt call it a peace period, it was more of a cold war type period

  15. #75
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    When you regard Sylvanas as evil, as Genn does, then anything Sylvanas does to advance her cause can be defined as "no good".
    This situation was defined as "no good" by anyone with a moral compass. Enslaving an entire race of beings is never justifiable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    Disease needs to be cured. If it can't be cured, diseased creatures must be culled.
    They didn't invade Gilneas because they thought Worgen were coming from there. So, not an excuse. They invaded Gilneas because they wanted a port.

    It has been cured, they have full and complete control of themselves.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-11-07 at 05:47 PM.
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  16. #76
    We already know Teldrassil gets burned before Lordaeron. I'm hoping that it wasn't the Horde who did it but an outside force and Horde is just getting blamed for it by Genn.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Pretty much confirmed Teldrassil is burned first by the interviews.
    I dont get it, through Blizzcon they seemed to keep this close yo their chest and then spunk it an interview on the Monday morning... bizzare...

  18. #78
    Herald of the Titans Alex86el's Avatar
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    today i saw Nobel say that players first see a cutscene with teldrassil burning, and AFTERWARDS they see the "attack on lordaeron" cinematic.
    so i suppose, like always.. the horde are the aggressors. how original.

  19. #79
    The Cloverfield monster.

  20. #80
    Deleted
    It already been confirmed. Teldrassil burns before Siege of undercity Vol 2 electical bogaloo.
    this ofc does not nessesarly mean hordes attack first. it can be Glenn who want to start the war. But First the tree burns, then the old city get demolished

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