The Horde burns down Teldrassil and the Alliance takes Lordaeron in response.

[Trassk]

I'm not saying you are wrong in all of this, but the whole point of that desolate council thingy is that she is, indeed, not in Undercity and has not been there since she became warchief. She is in Orgrimmar.

ah that part I missed, or forgot about it, yeah. Well that councils gonna be pointless when they don't have a city anymore to defend.

[Deleted]

ah that part I missed, or forgot about it, yeah. Well that councils gonna be pointless when they don't have a city anymore to defend.

Yes ^^ I hope we at least get to read what was behind that and what their purpose was after all. Seeing as they weren't going to tell Nathanos anything it can't have been just everyday things and to openly oppose Sylvanas on her goals in her own city is quite bold, I'd say.

[KevtheWise]

Yes ^^ I hope we at least get to read what was behind that and what their purpose was after all. Seeing as they weren't going to tell Nathanos anything it can't have been just everyday things and to openly oppose Sylvanas on her goals in her own city is quite bold, I'd say.

What if the council is trying to bring about their own (and maybe all of the Forsaken?) death by means of the Alliance? From what I gathered from the passage, they don't seem like they want to live anymore. So they start the chain of events with the Night Elves, burn the tree and leave a Forsaken flag/symbol there, causing the Alliance to head to the Undercity? I hope this isn't the case, since this is basically a repeat of the Wrath Gate, but still...

[Deleted]

What if the council is trying to bring about their own (and maybe all of the Forsaken?) death by means of the Alliance? From what I gathered from the passage, they don't seem like they want to live anymore. So they start the chain of events with the Night Elves, burn the tree and leave a Forsaken flag/symbol there, causing the Alliance to head to the Undercity? I hope this isn't the case, since this is basically a repeat of the Wrath Gate, but still...

I think it wasn't so much that they wanted to die, because if they wanted that, they could just... go and kill themselves, from what I gathered they wanted the Forsaken to pursue their original goals of looking for a 'cure' for undeath or any way to allieviate the curse and don't agree with Sylvanas' quest for more Valkyr and spreading the curse of undeath even more.
Something that Apothecary Judkins was already saying in Cata, so maybe he is in on it or more people agreed with him than he knew ^^

[elaina]

Y'all don't know shit so quit acting like it.

[Airlick]

Another thing to consider. An opposite of a thought I had in a thread about the possibility of Alliance attacking first. Just like it's ridiculous for the Horde to steamroll Night Elves after a crippling blow in Lordaeron, it's ridiculous for the Alliance to steamroll Lordaeron after losing Night Elven territory. Especially when you add the geography of Lordaeron into that. I mean, someone even told me in another thread that the Alliance apparently doesn't even control Hillsbrad and Silverpine, just Arathi, Gilneas and Tirisfal.

So, on top of the "after a crippling blow" bit, the Alliance also either steamrolls its way into Undercity without proper supply lines from Arathi/Gilneas or they land directly in Tirisfal, the heart of the Forsaken kingdom, rather than going via land from those zones, lacking any momentum or foothold, after a large part of their fleet went up in flames in Darnassus.

Blizzard sucks at believable warfare and logistics so fucking much...

What exactly is the relation between Alliance forces in EK being affected by Night Elves getting their fleet (as you seem to assume with no factual data) burnt down in Kalimdor? There literally is none. It takes weeks, if not months, for ships to sail from Kalimdor to EK. Takes even longer to move significant amount of troops - that is, so many that they can't be feasibly teleported in - across the continents. Any losses the Alliance takes when Teldrassil gets burnt will be NE losses. They would have nothing to do with the campaign in Lordaeron regardless of what happens.

I'm thinking you also have a massive misunderstanding of how logistics actually work. Wars in Warcraft universe aren't like World Wars, a lot of supplies could be carried by the troops and their supply wagons, they could also forage supplies almost all the way to Undercity. This is what armies did in some 16th century, which, aside of magic and gnomish/goblin engineering, is about the same in terms of technological level. You don't have millions of soldiers that require constant flow of fuel, munitions, spare parts, food etc. to keep going. You have an army of, say, 20 thousand, that can carry supplies for at least weeks of travel themselves, and again, they can forage more food. Battles don't last for months, with fresh divisions replacing the bloodied ones. Wars back then were a series of skirmishes (if the armies even managed to get in contact with one another) followed by a single actual battle that often decided the outcome.

As far as rolling deep into Forsaken territory, again - Alliance has everything going for it. We don't know how it actually plays out, but considering the Alliance DID get to Undercity with huge numbers, it's safe to assume it won a major victory at Thoradin's Wall and Stromgarde, which are the only actual obstacles on the way deep into Hillsbrad and further into Tirisfal Glades. These areas are just plains and forests. That's assuming there even was a battle. It's also possible that the Forsaken simply weren't prepared to defend their own territory. In any case, if there was an initial battle and the Forsaken lost, they probably wouldn't be able to reorganize and go for another battle, so they'd probably just have to retreat all the way to Undercity with Alliance in pursuit. Alliance probably wouldn't be able to keep up simply because the Forsaken, though slower, have the advantage of not having to rest. Only Worgen would be able to catch up, and they wouldn't have the numbers to beat them for good.
If there was no battle and Forsaken were not prepared, they could only have realized they have a huge Alliance army marching on Undercity if the Thoradin Wall's garrison managed to send warning before being destroyed. If this was the case, again, there simply are no openings for them to attack. They can't set up an ambush, because the Alliance would have had whole packs of Worgen scouting for them, and they are by far the best suited race for it in the universe. They would leave the Forsaken army completely blind. And then the Horde, once informed, could have easily predicted Alliance's goal. There are no other strategic objectives in Lordaeron other than the Undercity. The Alliance has already attacked it in the past and it's a matter of pride for it to reclaim it. There would be no reason for the Horde to move out and try to catch the allies in the field.

So yeah... Blizzard is doing fine in logistics department.

[Darkeon]

So we know the Horde started it (as usual).

ETA until they claim to be the victims?

Blizzard did it.

Stop equating a game, written by someone, to actual events.

[Magnagarde]

The Alliance lost a tranquil capital and huge swathes of Northern Kalimdor, while taking ruins full of ooze and corpses - including completely similar land that surrounds it - after losing it all before that in the first place. The Alliance is the loser here. The only reason people seem to think that the Alliance got the better outcome is because of the name of the ruin - Lordaeron.

[Mehrunes]

What exactly is the relation between Alliance forces in EK being affected by Night Elves getting their fleet (as you seem to assume with no factual data) burnt down in Kalimdor? There literally is none. It takes weeks, if not months, for ships to sail from Kalimdor to EK. Takes even longer to move significant amount of troops - that is, so many that they can't be feasibly teleported in - across the continents. Any losses the Alliance takes when Teldrassil gets burnt will be NE losses. They would have nothing to do with the campaign in Lordaeron regardless of what happens.

You do realize Teldrassil is an island, yes? Now think really, really hard and try to figure out how do you travel from an island to the mainland. Hint: it's ships. Given how it's the main Night Elven outpost, it's also likely to be their main port. The only other significant port they have anyway is in Feralas. And since the Horde is going to get to Teldrassil to set it on fire, they have to get through those ships. Logic, how does it work. Not just that, ships are kinda flammable, so making Azeroth's biggest bonfire right next to the port is likely to set some of them in fire as well. Because fire spreads.

As for the distance, Stormwind isn't exactly a direct neighbor of Lordaeron either. It's half a world away, just in another direction. Especially in case of your later scenario of Alliance moving through Arathi. The only sea route into Arathi is through a tiny cove that's rather dangerous for ships and then through a narrow path next to Stromgarde. That's a route for smuggling supplies in case of a siege, not a landing spot for an invading army. And yet, in your brilliant mind, marching an army across the entire EK does not constitute enough time for Night Elves to regroup with the rest of the Alliance.

And I'm not sure how a situation where they don't regroup is supposed to work in your favor anyway. During Cata, Alliance's focus was almost exclusively central Kalimdor, where they send huge reinforcements from EK. And yet, despite having both EK and Night Elven forces, it was a constant stalemate there. And you think just EK forces alone (after few extra years of suffering further losses) being some tide of doom makes sense?

I'm thinking you also have a massive misunderstanding of how logistics actually work. Wars in Warcraft universe aren't like World Wars, a lot of supplies could be carried by the troops and their supply wagons, they could also forage supplies almost all the way to Undercity. This is what armies did in some 16th century, which, aside of magic and gnomish/goblin engineering, is about the same in terms of technological level. You don't have millions of soldiers that require constant flow of fuel, munitions, spare parts, food etc. to keep going. You have an army of, say, 20 thousand, that can carry supplies for at least weeks of travel themselves, and again, they can forage more food. Battles don't last for months, with fresh divisions replacing the bloodied ones. Wars back then were a series of skirmishes (if the armies even managed to get in contact with one another) followed by a single actual battle that often decided the outcome.

And yet supply lines played a factor in the crusades, Romans used them at times as well and Art of War, which dates to 5th century BC, covers them as well. Now, while China had a neat system of small forts for that purpose, in Europe it played a secondary role to foraging in cases like the enemy engaging in scorched earth tactics or geographic reasons.

Now, do explain with your massive understanding what exactly is Alliance supposed to forage there when Arathi is mostly a ghost town and the Forsaken grow and store no produce (the closest thing the Forsaken had to a farm they planted humans in there) and their husbandry involves spiders and skeletal horses? With the wildlife past Arathi consisting mostly of various shades of plagued bear, with a side dish of plagued squirrels? Even though you made a point about Forsaken having no biological needs, you didn't exactly apply that to your massive understanding and what it means to other relevant areas.

As far as rolling deep into Forsaken territory, again - Alliance has everything going for it. We don't know how it actually plays out, but considering the Alliance DID get to Undercity with huge numbers, it's safe to assume it won a major victory at Thoradin's Wall and Stromgarde, which are the only actual obstacles on the way deep into Hillsbrad and further into Tirisfal Glades. These areas are just plains and forests. That's assuming there even was a battle.

Except to get to Tirisfal from Arathi you need to go through either WPL, particularly through Andorhal and then Bulwark, which are fortified positions, or through Silverpine, which has a series of fortifications from the invasion of Gilneas. The key ones are more easily defensible chokepoints.

It's also possible that the Forsaken simply weren't prepared to defend their own territory. In any case, if there was an initial battle and the Forsaken lost, they probably wouldn't be able to reorganize and go for another battle, so they'd probably just have to retreat all the way to Undercity with Alliance in pursuit. Alliance probably wouldn't be able to keep up simply because the Forsaken, though slower, have the advantage of not having to rest. Only Worgen would be able to catch up, and they wouldn't have the numbers to beat them for good.

Sylvanas spent the last few years with the bulwark against the infinite being her main motivation. She already heavily fortified her lands by the time Cata hit and after 4.0 largely withdrew from the world business, leaving her with nothing else to do than perfecting the fortification system further. It's rather unlikely they'd leave their own territory undefended.

If there was no battle and Forsaken were not prepared, they could only have realized they have a huge Alliance army marching on Undercity if the Thoradin Wall's garrison managed to send warning before being destroyed. If this was the case, again, there simply are no openings for them to attack. They can't set up an ambush, because the Alliance would have had whole packs of Worgen scouting for them, and they are by far the best suited race for it in the universe.

The race that can literally play dead can't set up an ambush? And what, are Worgen scouts invincible now? Weirdly enough I recall dealing with them quite successfully in Silverpine and Hillsbrad storylines. Also, Thoradin Wall isn't exactly made of glass, so the idea that sending a message to Undercity (even ignoring the fact that this world has magical communication, as well as portals which, while being unfeasible for armies in general, are rather fine for individual uses) is merely a possibility doesn't have much to stand on.

They would leave the Forsaken army completely blind. And then the Horde, once informed, could have easily predicted Alliance's goal. There are no other strategic objectives in Lordaeron other than the Undercity. The Alliance has already attacked it in the past and it's a matter of pride for it to reclaim it. There would be no reason for the Horde to move out and try to catch the allies in the field.

So yeah... Blizzard is doing fine in logistics department.

Again, there are numerous fortified positions and smaller garrisons the Alliance has to go through to reach Undercity. I haven't said squat about a fight in the field. Good job fighting that straw-man. It sure has perished.

[Deleted]

As for the distance, Stormwind isn't exactly a direct neighbor of Lordaeron either. It's half a world away, just in another direction. Especially in case of your later scenario of Alliance moving through Arathi. The only sea route into Arathi is through a tiny cove that's rather dangerous for ships and then through a narrow path next to Stromgarde. That's a route for smuggling supplies in case of a siege, not a landing spot for an invading army. And yet, in your brilliant mind, marching an army across the entire EK does not constitute enough time for Night Elves to regroup with the rest of the Alliance.

One thing I don't get, if Sylvanas is already planning attacking Stormwind, why she doesn't mine the coast of Lordaeron first? Fortress Lordaeron isn't that hard to conceive.

[Mehrunes]

One thing I don't get, if Sylvanas is already planning attacking Stormwind, why she doesn't mine the coast of Lordaeron first? Fortress Lordaeron isn't that hard to conceive.

Or why didn't do that in the years before. She sent like 5 people to Draenor, what did she and most of the Forsaken do in that year? Why is Thandol Span still a thing too.

[Deleted]

I'm thinking you also have a massive misunderstanding of how logistics actually work. Wars in Warcraft universe aren't like World Wars, a lot of supplies could be carried by the troops and their supply wagons, they could also forage supplies almost all the way to Undercity. This is what armies did in some 16th century, which, aside of magic and gnomish/goblin engineering, is about the same in terms of technological level. You don't have millions of soldiers that require constant flow of fuel, munitions, spare parts, food etc. to keep going. You have an army of, say, 20 thousand, that can carry supplies for at least weeks of travel themselves, and again, they can forage more food. Battles don't last for months, with fresh divisions replacing the bloodied ones. Wars back then were a series of skirmishes (if the armies even managed to get in contact with one another) followed by a single actual battle that often decided the outcome.

What? No, there are entire treaties wrote in the Ancient World that points the importance of logistics for wars. Those same treaties were used by kings and conquerers during the Middle Ages and Modern Ages.

Undead can withstand long sieges, living can't.

[Poppets]

Do we have any confirmation she started the fire? all I have read/heard is that we see her before the tree on fire....they stated that "event" happened BEFORE the attack on Lordaeron. Nothing about Sylvanas burning it before, just that we see her there...Unless there is something I missed.

[Venziir]

But it just doesn’t make sense.

Saurfang is side-eyeing Sylvanas in the leaked chapter, like he won’t go along with her if she starts a war. Yet at the battle for Lordaeron he seems more than willing to defend her city. Something I wouldn’t think he’d have done if she shot first.

I wouldn't say "more than willing". It's not until she shouts "For the Horde!", that it actually looks as if he had any faith in her at all.

[Combatbutler]

I wouldn't say "more than willing". It's not until she shouts "For the Horde!", that it actually looks as if he had any faith in her at all.

Saurfang wouldn't support her if he wouldn't believe in her, he would be standing next to genn and Anduin or outright challenge her for the position of Warchief, the snippet of Golden's novel makes that pretty clear.

[Arrashi]

Saurfang wouldn't support her if he wouldn't believe in her, he would be standing next to genn and Anduin or outright challenge her for the position of Warchief, the snippet of Golden's novel makes that pretty clear.

What if saurfang finally realised he always liked pork after all ?

[Combatbutler]

What if saurfang finally realised he always liked pork after all ?

Then he would sail to stormwind, kick down the doors of the orphanage and get some bacon instead of wasting his time with the grown ups obviously ;P

[Arrashi]

Then he would sail to stormwind, kick down the doors of the orphanage and get some bacon instead of wasting his time with the grown ups obviously ;P

Obviously he wants to increase orphran count in stormwind first.

[Combatbutler]

Obviously he wants to increase orphran count in stormwind first.

Naw that comes afterwards of course, you don't eat your source of bacon, after all you still want your bacon in the future.

[mickybrighteyes]

I'm thinking you also have a massive misunderstanding of how logistics actually work.

It seems we can say the same abuot your interpretation...

Still trying to figure out how an army would get by established scouts in a region undetected when there's no real way for them to even get into the region beyond utilizing a single road that is scouted (based on quests sending randoms to look into troll/human activity in the region).

Also Worgen super scouts... lmao... no.

trying to compare what makes a better scout? no need for food, sleep, breathing, foraging, immune to disease, can view body as expendable and mortal wound takes on a whole different meaning (lost your head? still can relay the message)... vs can jump good and run fast... the former will win