Teldrassil is burned before Lordaeron is attacked

[Nyel]

That means only one thing.

Alliance are pussies.

Pussies because they're not committing war crimes? Yeah, I'd prefer to be a pussy then.

[Deleted]

Pussies because they're not committing war crimes? Yeah, I'd prefer to be a pussy then.

No. Because they were scared to retaliate or do anything meaningful for them until now. Genn was crying since Cataclysm and did nothing for 3 expansions to have his revenge or anything. Horde is not scared to act. I cant imagine Alliance would go against Genn if he went full rabid like horde did against Garrosh.

Alliance though we betrayed them on broken shore. did nothing. If You would change sides and Alliance retreat and it get out warchief killed I can guarantee horde retaliation would be swift.

Genn is actually only Alliance character which force faction story to continue in some way. Rest of your leaders are almost nonexistent for several expansions.

Even Jaina saw how Alliance is full of cowards and decided to go her way.

[Snorkles]

The Forsaken starting areas are the only ones that have you willingly do evil shit. I dunno why it's even a bone of contention that they're bad at this point.

[SirBeef]

For those who don't go to WoWhead, what's the post say?

The header of the article says it is a speculation discussion. OP is on crack if he thinks it is definitive proof.

[Aaronioslo]

The header of the article says it is a speculation discussion. OP is on crack if he thinks it is definitive proof.

the guy literally said the siege is reaction to the burning of the tree, and my title says exactly that noting more nothing less.

and what the fuck are you on?

[Prifter]

I like the theory that Wrathion burned Teldrassil. I've also read that he is in Stormwind Palace while the Undercity is under attack by the Alliance. Anyone can confirm?

[Steampunkette]

except the one did choose to not serve her were all killed off later if you payed any attention.

she ordered you to kill civilians to raise them, as a result the remaining human there drank worgen blood

oh, my son is so brave, therefore his killer forgiven

and yes, it is simple sometimes. if people would admit sylv is simply evil instead of digging to the center of azeroth trying to find her 'hiddent feelings'

Marshal Redpath was killed because he was insane and violent and literally wanted to kill them. "I'll create my own forsaken! WITH ELBOWS!" It was literally the Rotbrain Encampment.

As to Silverpine, you kill holdouts in a running battle with the Worgen. Some of those are raised by Sylvanas, sure, but unless you're arguing that raising the dead itself is an evil act (which is questionable but a worthy argument if you wanna have it) then it's ultimately irrelevant. She does not enslave those people, she lets them live their own new lives as made clear, repeatedly, by the canon. Meanwhile the civilians killed by the humans, elves, dwarves, and gnomes are just -dead-. Gone forever. Given the choice, I'd rather be brought back to life. Some of the people in Fenris Keep decided to drink Worgen Blood because the Worgen told them they'd be -enslaved- by Sylvanas in undeath, which was a lie. Maybe they didn't know the truth, but it was still a lie.

"Oh, my son is brave and sacrificed himself for me. Better kill hundreds of people, send hundreds of my own people to their deaths, and risk the destruction of my whole planet to get vengeance for him!" doesn't sound much better.

It's simple if you actually read what I've written instead of pretending to have done so in order to kick over the strawman you're building.

Back to the neat Narrative item: Jaina follows the Alliance Narrative, now that I think about it. When she betrays her truce with the Horde by allowing the Alliance to move troops and supplies through Theramore, she opens herself up for retaliation. She got the civvies out during the conventional attacks that came 'cause of Taurajo, but when the city is bombed to bits she is ready to flood Orgrimmar and kill everyone, innocent civilian or not. She's talked down, temporarily, but when the Sunreavers help to steal the Bell she's off the deep end and again willing to go along with the slaughter of the innocent to get those she deems guilty.

And when the Horde returns to Dalaran, even though she's outvoted by 5 of the Council of 6, she quits and leaves because of her own personal vendetta, which will almost certainly play a big, BIG, role in the coming expansion...

Three alliance leaders moved to battling the Horde for their own personal trauma, while the Horde goes to war and makes it's decisions based on their survival and increased power. (Four if Anduin's reason for accepting Greymane's warmongering pushes is actually about his Father rather than Teldrassil)

... NEAT!

[SirBeef]

the guy literally said the siege is reaction to the burning of the tree, and my title says exactly that noting more nothing less.

and what the fuck are you on?

The whole Wowhead article is a speculation. There is nothing in there that is confirmation by either Christie Golden or Blizzard claiming what you are claiming. It is all speculation based on concept art, the story except, the order of the cinematic.

[Tyrathius]

There kind of is still an open conflict...Genn lead alliance troops to attack the horde in stormheim. That never really got resolved. Genn does reside in stormwind, I'd say she has every right to go after him.

Stormheim was an isolated battle though, it didn't actually start another war. The Alliance and Horde are not at war prior to Before the Storm.

Now sure, Sylvanas can be mad about Stormheim and want revenge, just like Genn can be mad about Gilneas and want revenge, but the point is we had peace after Legion and Sylvanas' plot against Stormwind makes it clear she is willing to break that peace.

[Steampunkette]

Stormheim was an isolated battle though, it didn't actually start another war. The Alliance and Horde are not at war prior to Before the Storm.

Now sure, Sylvanas can be mad about Stormheim and want revenge, just like Genn can be mad about Gilneas and want revenge, but the point is we had peace after Legion and Sylvanas' plot against Stormwind makes it clear she is willing to break that peace.

What is her plot against Stormwind, though?

Is it a flat out invasion? The prologue doesn't state it. Is it to go over and have a cookout? Probably not, but hey... she might've been planning one for years.

I posited that her plans for Stormwind aren't -about- Stormwind. Instead they're about Gilneas and Greymane. That she'll head to Stormwind with her army to demand Genn be turned over for his crimes in attacking the Forsaken forces at Stormheim and his intent to kill the head of the Horde, an assassination plot.

It would fit with her character (Manipulative rather than directly aggressive) and would serve as a way to put the Alliance on the Defensive. Especially since she knows Anduin's biggest character trait is wanting peace.

[Flarelaine]

Have you seen the Horde Cinematic? The horde was overrun. It was leave, or die. They didn't just "abandon" the alliance.

Not this shit in thread after thread...

They fucking did. They left Varian on his own. If that is not abandoning, I don't know what is. Having reasons does not change facts.

[Heavens Night]

Why the hell should the Alliance attack Undercity?

Garrosh destroyed Theramore. Alliance stood by the side of the Horde and helped them fight Garrosh. They got nothing and asked for nothing after the destruction of Theramore. Sylvanas left the Broken Shore during battle and Varian got killed. The Alliance somehow accepted it and did not ask for compensation. Now Sylvanas is going to burn Teldrassil. Why the hell is she doing that? Excuse me but the Horde seems to be scum when she's following someone like Sylvanas after all the things the Alliance has accepted and not asked for revenge or reckoning.

Pretty much this.
But hey the horde never were very intelligent.
And Sylvanas, the undead piece of garbage, of course she is "evil". You only have to look at her forsaken and what she makes them do.
Horde = filth pure and simple.

[Florena]

What is her plot against Stormwind, though?

Is it a flat out invasion? The prologue doesn't state it. Is it to go over and have a cookout? Probably not, but hey... she might've been planning one for years.

I posited that her plans for Stormwind aren't -about- Stormwind. Instead they're about Gilneas and Greymane. That she'll head to Stormwind with her army to demand Genn be turned over for his crimes in attacking the Forsaken forces at Stormheim and his intent to kill the head of the Horde, an assassination plot.

It would fit with her character (Manipulative rather than directly aggressive) and would serve as a way to put the Alliance on the Defensive. Especially since she knows Anduin's biggest character trait is wanting peace.

""It is, for the moment," she said. "Injuries need time to heal. Crops need to be planted. But soon, I will call upon the brave fighters of the Horde for another battle. The one you and I have both longed for."

Nathanos was silent. She did not take that for disagreement of disapproval. He was often silent. That he did not press her for more details meant that he understood what she wanted.

Stormwind."

Are you really trying to say that she's not intending some sort of attack on Stormwind? Is she going to just march the horde's army on stormwind with no plan or tactics? No, probably not, but the wording here shows she wants to take Stormwind, not go chat with Anduin as a distraction to claim a different prize.

We don't know where the novel will go from here but what info we DO have shows that Stormwind IS the target of her plans.

[Aaronioslo]

The whole Wowhead article is a speculation. There is nothing in there that is confirmation by either Christie Golden or Blizzard claiming what you are claiming. It is all speculation based on concept art, the story except, the order of the cinematic.

there is interview from blizzard designer, use your eyes once before you spewing bs

''In a Gamespot Interview, WoW production director John Hight clarified the timeline for these events.''

[Samin]

I wonder if maybe Vareesa will basically be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of this conflict. She gets killed in an incident technically unrelated to the conflict (but certainly politically motivated). Someone thinks she is a spy or something like that and kills her. This will cause Sylvanas to retaliate by burning Teldrassil (also giving her an opportunity to raise Vareesa and probably get her fully on her side).

This way Alliance gets to complain that Sylvanas horrendously overreacted to an inofficial or unsanctioned action by someone maybe only tangentially aligned with the Alliance, while the Horde can blame the Alliance for being ruthless killers of innocent elves and deserving all of it.

Ultimately it really just shows that both sides were looking and waiting for a casus belli.

[Jastall]

Not this shit in thread after thread...

They fucking did. They left Varian on his own. If that is not abandoning, I don't know what is. Having reasons does not change facts.

I mean the Alliance also left Varian (especially Jaina who's so salty after the fact). Having reasons for leaving does not change that fact.

Also I'm curious what Vereesa (if that's her) is doing in the pic. Wouldn't mind if she died, that's 1/3 Windrunners dead, only 2 to go.

And there's no reason to believe Sylvanas is not responsible for the burning, so far at least. We'll see what is the reasoning behind this act later. Much as I think Greymane's an idiot, he's not callous enough to burn Teldrassil just to kickstart a war.

[Steampunkette]

""It is, for the moment," she said. "Injuries need time to heal. Crops need to be planted. But soon, I will call upon the brave fighters of the Horde for another battle. The one you and I have both longed for."

Nathanos was silent. She did not take that for disagreement of disapproval. He was often silent. That he did not press her for more details meant that he understood what she wanted.

Stormwind."

Are you really trying to say that she's not intending some sort of attack on Stormwind? Is she going to just march the horde's army on stormwind with no plan or tactics? No, probably not, but the wording here shows she wants to take Stormwind, not go chat with Anduin as a distraction to claim a different prize.

We don't know where the novel will go from here but what info we DO have shows that Stormwind IS the target of her plans.

Like I said, I think her intent is to get over there and hold her army as a cudgel against Anduin to force him to choose between open war or his friend, mentor, and guardian in the wake of his father's death. It puts Anduin in a precarious position.

Does he hand over Greymane and consign him to death at the hands of the Horde? What would his father think of that, who so hated the Horde he went after Thrall in the Undercity, an orc who sues for peace just as fervently as Anduin does... Still, if he gives her Genn, she gets to destroy the "Old Wolf" who has been hunting her and her people across the face of Azeroth, which would strike a blow -and- be cathartic. But could Arthas really give over Genn? What message would that send to the other members of the Alliance, and what sort of friction, or fracture, would that cause?

Does he protect Greymane, possibly starting a war over a man whom the other allied leaders know to be disloyal to the king, after he disobeyed a direct order to not attack Sylvanas or the Horde? Sylvanas would love that, since it would undermine Anduin's leadership and put a fracture in the Alliance. A crack that future machinations might widen... Especially as she can use her position of sympathy as a lever, the insult from the refusal as a torch, and burn the Alliance to a cinder with a war that Anduin could have avoided...

Or, as Anduin always does, will he try to make a Compromise... perhaps a Compromise that offers up a terrible cost for Greymane, but one that binds him to the king all the harder: Gilneas and all points north given over to the Horde. It would give Sylvanas a fortified city near enough to Stormwind and Ironforge to be a wall against assault, and give her a port city which in a world with so much water is, clearly, very valuable. I think, honestly, this is her goal.

There's also "The one you and I have both longed for." What battle has Sylvanas longed for? Going after Stormwind? Nothing in her character tells us she's wanted to march on Stormwind and kill everyone. Nor anything in Nathanos's past that would make Stormwind the target of his ire... He was of Lordaeron in life, the only human to join the rangers, and died near Stratholme when Ramstein the Gorger killed him. Sylvanas's jailer whom she went to Northrend to kill was also from Lordaeron, not Stormwind.

So what the hell battle has she longed for? The Worgen. Gilneas. That is what she wants. It doesn't make any sense for her character to want Stormwind itself... but Gilneas and Greymane? Yes. Same thing for Nathanos. Stormwind is irrelevant to him, but the Worgen and the bitter war for Gilneas would be a motive.

*Edit* Hell... you could even argue that both of them see Gilneas as a traitor-state which allowed them both to die because Genn decided to put up his wall rather than honoring his treaty to aid Lordaeron in times of need. The "Battle they'ved long for" -could- be killing Greymane since they may view him from that perspective.

[Florena]

Nothing about that excerpt to me indicates she wants to 'visit' stormwind to negotiate with Anduin even under pretense. Why would she want Stormwind? Because taking stormwind devastates the Alliance, the horde's only rival on Azeroth. It would lead to an era of horde dominance if the alliance could be taken out. Sure, she's probably very angry at Genn, but her showing up at Stormwind like that just seems laughable to me. Why would she stick her neck out that much going to the capital of Stormwind to talk to Anduin? The Alliance at this point to the best of my knowledge doesnt' even HAVE Gilneas. We got some lip service about it from varian at the end of SoO but no news about the Alliance actually claiming it that I know of.

[Steampunkette]

Nothing about that excerpt to me indicates she wants to 'visit' stormwind to negotiate with Anduin even under pretense. Why would she want Stormwind? Because taking stormwind devastates the Alliance, the horde's only rival on Azeroth. It would lead to an era of horde dominance if the alliance could be taken out. Sure, she's probably very angry at Genn, but her showing up at Stormwind like that just seems laughable to me. Why would she stick her neck out that much going to the capital of Stormwind to talk to Anduin? The Alliance at this point to the best of my knowledge doesnt' even HAVE Gilneas. We got some lip service about it from varian at the end of SoO but no news about the Alliance actually claiming it that I know of.

Sylvanas traded it for the life of Tess Greymane, but it's still full of Worgen fighting and Greymane still has plans to take it back, always has. By getting the High King of the Alliance to sign a treaty or otherwise flatly state that it belongs to the Horde, she secures it in perpetuity and any Worgen who are there can be slaughtered without it being an act of war.

Sylvanas has never had a reason to want to "Dominate" the Alliance. Never has Nathanos Blightcaller. It's not in their histories or in their personalities to want to destroy the Alliance at all. But it's a battle they "Longed for"? That makes no sense whatsoever. It's not like she was making a pseech to the Orcs or Trolls or anyone, she was talking to Nathanos, exclusively and quietly.

The "Visit" is preparation for a strike. If Anduin refuses to give up Greymane, she can use the military force she has present to make an assault on Stormwind to try and -get- Greymane. If he gives up Greymane, the army backs off and no one else -has- to die. If he gives up Gilneas, same thing.

It's not like she'd go to Stormwind without any protection, or even a small force, to try and get Greymane. They'd probably all die, and she wouldn't get what she's after. So she's gotta have the military there... Besides, if she -did- crush Stormwind, the Alliance would retreat and consolidate their forces in Ironforge, which is both closer to Lordaeron (Where she doesn't want them attacking, it was the reason she thought attacking Theramore was a mistake) and better defended than Lordaeron, where she'd never manage to get them out.

But yeah. That's my call on it: Sylvanas isn't after Stormwind itself, she doesn't want to start a war that'll get her people, and probably herself, killed. She'll go in to try and manipulate things to her favor.

[Avengerx]

What I actually don't understand is that in Pandaria afaik Horde forces were pretty much decimated. Did the Horde suddenly gain that much power that they can provoke an all out war with the Alliance?