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  1. #101
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    The magic of "The writers don't care about plot holes you could drive a truck through."

    Alternatively, their military forces were decimated, but it was mostly orcs, anyhow, and now their kids are taking up the sword 4 years later since Orcs breed like rabbits in a Viagra testing center.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    What I actually don't understand is that in Pandaria afaik Horde forces were pretty much decimated. Did the Horde suddenly gain that much power that they can provoke an all out war with the Alliance?
    No. Which is exactly what makes the war pretty silly from a lore point of view.

    Blood Elves got slightly better equipped from Throne of Thunder. Jaina got stronger. The Forsaken are maintaining their strength, but lost a fair number of forces in the situation surrounding Gilneas before MoP.

    The Alliance now has the Army of the Light, and the Vindicaar, and a reason for Jaina to stop playing around, and the Horde no doubt pissed of the Cenarion forces when burning down Teldrassil (and Malfurion/Illidan/Maiev/Jarod and the Warden forces by virtue of directly attacking the Night Elves and Tyrande's forces).

  3. #103
    First, two-dimensional black&white statements and responses are boring and self-righteous. Show some capacity for independent, critical thought that is free of cognitive dissonance. Seriously, the dissonance is so bad in here its offensive to the senses.
    Second, in regards to Theramore, why does Camp Taurajo and the Mulgore gate never come up? When you you consider that at the outset of cata peaceful Camp Taurajo was burned to the ground and human incursions forced the Tauren to construct a rudimentary gate to Mulgore (last I checked, human operated ballistas still stand outside Mulgore) the reasoning behind the Theramore bombing becomes a lot more clear. Theramore was a clear and present threat to Thunder Bluff and had long stepped outside its purported neutrality, thus violating its agreement with the Horde and Orgrimmar. A mana nuke was perhaps excessive, but thats why the other leaders of the Horde, most notably Bain, a Tauren, did their best to warn Jaina when they learned of the impending attack. Sylvanas is disturbingly cold about her disagreement over the timing of Theramore's bombing, but when I see so many alliance players jumping on the self righteous bandwagon without ever making a single apology for the pointless sacking of Taurajo and siege of Mulgore, I begin to see why she's developed such a ruthless personality.

    Something tells me asking Jaina to ever so kindly deny her own people passage through Theramore so they couldn't attack the Tauren anymore would not have worked. Not to mention Horde forces were preoccupied with Bael Modan so the option of ordering Horde forces to begin pushing Alliance troops back to Theramore for a less bloody resolution was not viable.
    Lets not forget that the dwarves of Bael Modan already instigated violence by displacing a Tauren settlement and desecrating their sacred sites all the way back in Vanilla.

    Theramore was a tragedy, but stop trying to be mindlessly reductive in explaining why it happened. It was a bit more than just some psycho deciding he felt genocidal today. A peaceful hunting village was burnt to the ground and looted, a village whose inhabitants had already been forced to move once before by alliance intruders. Pandora's box was opened by both sides, unequivocally.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodymickey View Post
    First, two-dimensional black&white statements and responses are boring and self-righteous. Show some capacity for independent, critical thought that is free of cognitive dissonance. Seriously, the dissonance is so bad in here its offensive to the senses.
    Second, in regards to Theramore, why does Camp Taurajo and the Mulgore gate never come up? When you you consider that at the outset of cata peaceful Camp Taurajo was burned to the ground and human incursions forced the Tauren to construct a rudimentary gate to Mulgore (last I checked, human operated ballistas still stand outside Mulgore) the reasoning behind the Theramore bombing becomes a lot more clear. Theramore was a clear and present threat to Thunder Bluff and had long stepped outside its purported neutrality, thus violating its agreement with the Horde and Orgrimmar. A mana nuke was perhaps excessive, but thats why the other leaders of the Horde, most notably Bain, a Tauren, did their best to warn Jaina when they learned of the impending attack. Sylvanas is disturbingly cold about her disagreement over the timing of Theramore's bombing, but when I see so many alliance players jumping on the self righteous bandwagon without ever making a single apology for the pointless sacking of Taurajo and siege of Mulgore, I begin to see why she's developed such a ruthless personality.

    Something tells me asking Jaina to ever so kindly deny her own people passage through Theramore so they couldn't attack the Tauren anymore would not have worked. Not to mention Horde forces were preoccupied with Bael Modan so the option of ordering Horde forces to begin pushing Alliance troops back to Theramore for a less bloody resolution was not viable.
    Lets not forget that the dwarves of Bael Modan already instigated violence by displacing a Tauren settlement and desecrating their sacred sites all the way back in Vanilla.

    Theramore was a tragedy, but stop trying to be mindlessly reductive in explaining why it happened. It was a bit more than just some psycho deciding he felt genocidal today. A peaceful hunting village was burnt to the ground and looted, a village whose inhabitants had already been forced to move once before by alliance intruders. Pandora's box was opened by both sides, unequivocally.
    Taurajo isn't brought up because it was a camp of like 10 people and the Alliance both announced the attack and allowed anyone who wanted to leave to do so. Pretty silly to compare the two.

    The more apt comparison would be that Taurajo is like Hillsbrad farms--except that the Forsaken didn't give any warning or opportunity to attack and began using the captured humans in horrific experiments after they destroyed the town.

    I mean, both factions do bad things but let's not pretend one faction isn't significantly worse.

  5. #105
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    Was Theramore a tragedy, though, really?

    It was attacked on three sides for several days before the forces withdrew and the manabomb was dropped. The civilians had been loaded onto boats and evacuated, so the only things lost were soldiers (Who were going to die, anyway, if the three-pronged assault had continued) and a bunch of buildings/possessions.

    In the Barrens, the humans slaughtered innocent civilians. Men, women, children, the elderly. It was a complete massacre. In light of the innocents of Theramore getting away before the bomb hit, the bomb loses a lot of it's "The Horde has gone too far!" bite, for me. It was a big bomb dropped on a military target and killed a shitload of soldiers. We do that all the damned time in the real world.

  6. #106
    The civilians were captured and brought to Orgrimmar. We see them in SoO. No military reason for that.

    I agree Theramore was not a tragedy though. People are too quick to use that word.

    Funny thing with Taurajo is Baine even acknowledges the alliance pov on it.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena Emberlin View Post
    The civilians were captured and brought to Orgrimmar. We see them in SoO. No military reason for that.
    They certainly were.

    And then the Horde attacking Orgrimmar released them rather than murdering them all in retribution for Taraujo. Otherwise there would've been an Alliance/Horde raid fight right after the Dark Shamans. :P

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    They certainly were.

    And then the Horde attacking Orgrimmar released them rather than murdering them all in retribution for Taraujo. Otherwise there would've been an Alliance/Horde raid fight right after the Dark Shamans. :P
    The Horde couldn't even make it through the front gate. The Alliance released their own forces.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    They certainly were.

    And then the Horde attacking Orgrimmar released them rather than murdering them all in retribution for Taraujo. Otherwise there would've been an Alliance/Horde raid fight right after the Dark Shamans. :P
    More like the alliance forces rescued them. You see darkspear when playing horde. We don't know when they were captured but I would guess pre 5.3.

  10. #110
    Old god stuff.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptoriana View Post
    Oh the Sylv is evil therefore she did it because i dun like her

    Yawnnnn, heard this many times before.
    Right, because it's not like she's used the plague on innocent civilians, tortured captives, & raised the people's she's killed into her service...

    That's not evil at all......
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desareon View Post
    Right, because it's not like she's used the plague on innocent civilians, tortured captives, & raised the people's she's killed into her service...

    That's not evil at all......
    On the last point: She raised those people and gave them their free will. She didn't force them into her service.

    And, honestly, I'd probably prefer to be raised if I were a civilian killed in a war like what happenedi n Silverpine, as compared to being left in the Barrens to rot, like what happened, to children, in Taraujo.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Desareon View Post
    Right, because it's not like she's used the plague on innocent civilians, tortured captives, & raised the people's she's killed into her service...

    That's not evil at all......
    Are the captures humans still caged in the udercity apothecary area?

    Anyway if you want an example of alliance aggression look at Stonard.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Was Theramore a tragedy, though, really?

    It was attacked on three sides for several days before the forces withdrew and the manabomb was dropped. The civilians had been loaded onto boats and evacuated, so the only things lost were soldiers (Who were going to die, anyway, if the three-pronged assault had continued) and a bunch of buildings/possessions.

    In the Barrens, the humans slaughtered innocent civilians. Men, women, children, the elderly. It was a complete massacre. In light of the innocents of Theramore getting away before the bomb hit, the bomb loses a lot of it's "The Horde has gone too far!" bite, for me. It was a big bomb dropped on a military target and killed a shitload of soldiers. We do that all the damned time in the real world.
    Humans did not kill innocents in the barrens, they were killed by quillboars.
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  15. #115
    The looters that ransacked the camp were also arrested.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Humans did not kill innocents in the barrens, they were killed by quillboars.
    That's a load of horseshit and you know it... Taraujo was firebombed by the Wildhammer and overrun by the Northwatch. Yeah, there were survivors who were captured and killed by the Quillboar, but the Alliance had their hand in the slaughter, as well. It's why Vendetta Point has people -from- Taraujo in it. People who saw what the Northwatch did, there, and refused to back down when Honor's Stand's soldiers moved out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena Emberlin View Post
    The looters that ransacked the camp were also arrested.
    The Looters who abandoned the fight to steal shit from the rubble were arrested. General Hawthorne was not. It was up to the Horde to take down the Butcher of Taraujo.

  17. #117
    Here's the thing about the raising. Yes there is lip service paid to free will. And I don't have much problem with it in say the start of the Cata forsaken leveling where you're told join us, go back int he grave or go do your own thing.

    In battle, it borders on mind control because the undead are raised into a frenzy and then directed at their former friends, leaving them branded as enemies to their own people right off the bat. What can they do? Certainly not go and reason with their comrades. Sure it doesn't last forever but it borders on short term mind control, manipulating them into things they'd never do when in control of their faculties. Like a drug or a succubus' seduction spell. You want to dig up graves and give people the offer? Fine. Raisign them into a frenzy and manipulating them into killing their friends and betraying their faction and burning that bridge? Not so much.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Taurajo isn't brought up because it was a camp of like 10 people and the Alliance both announced the attack and allowed anyone who wanted to leave to do so. Pretty silly to compare the two..
    To be fair, Garrosh made a show of the impending assault, then just sorta waited - giving civilians ample time to escape. Theramore was only filled with soldiers and those unwilling to abandon their home by the time the attack took place.

    Withdrawing only to mana bomb it off the face of all realities of existence was a bit much, though. But Garrosh wanted to show off his new power, expecting everyone would fall in line when they saw what he was capable of.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2017-11-07 at 07:02 PM.

  19. #119
    Ok but who planted Teldrassil? Fandral Staghelm. Who was corrupted by the Nightmare? Fandral Staghelm. What is showing signs of lingering corruption? Teldrassil. So you've got a corrupted world tree planted by a puppet of the Nightmare and you're clinging to it like its some pristine gift of nature.

    Wanna maybe get down off that high horse there and maybe concede that you should have burned Teldrassil yourselves years ago?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena Emberlin View Post
    Here's the thing about the raising. Yes there is lip service paid to free will. And I don't have much problem with it in say the start of the Cata forsaken leveling where you're told join us, go back int he grave or go do your own thing.

    In battle, it borders on mind control because the undead are raised into a frenzy and then directed at their former friends, leaving them branded as enemies to their own people right off the bat. What can they do? Certainly not go and reason with their comrades. Sure it doesn't last forever but it borders on short term mind control, manipulating them into things they'd never do when in control of their faculties. Like a drug or a succubus' seduction spell. You want to dig up graves and give people the offer? Fine. Raisign them into a frenzy and manipulating them into killing their friends and betraying their faction and burning that bridge? Not so much.
    The "Raising them into battle" thing was a retroactive canonical revision because the Devs were stumped at Blizzcon and made something up off the cuff. It's a pile of bullshit they threw together to placate people when the gameplay mechanics crashed into Lore.

    It should be ignored pretty much entirely because we're shown in the novels and the game that the Forsaken have complete free will.

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