Is Garrosh one of the more misunderstood and better written characters in WC

[KrakHed]

@KrakHed
I had to edit my post to respond to the rest of the nonsense you edited after my initial response. Get to that, and then I'll respond.

There's literally nothing wrong with enslaving barely-sentient creatures who are a slight step above animals. Are you honestly going to pretend that coercing a group of beasts who were giving the Horde problems in Northrend is a tragedy?

With regard to attacking neutral factions. So what? The Blue Dragonflight, at that point, was a largely insignificant force. It's not like Garrosh is deploying the plague in the backyard of the Argent Crusade, or imprisoning Ebon Blade members. Instead, he stole from an utterly irrelevant flight.

The position of Warchief is also an absolutist position. There's no institutional check on Garrosh's authority. He's not required to politically maneuver his subordinates.

You'd rather follow a Legion puppet because you're too invested in this anti-Garrosh nonsense to admit you were wrong? Really helping your credibility there.

Sure, we could call them barely sentient, but isn't that what the Alliance says about the Horde? So yes, it's a blatant tragedy. You can call Blue Dragons insignificant, but that's just showing your general disregard. And as for Ebon Blade members? That Ebon Blade member had agreed to work for Sylvanas, and no one really says her actions are justified or that she was right. Garrosh also started a war with Gilneas, that the Forsaken had no real need for. So that's another brilliant plan of his that backfired. If he'd had been given more control over it, as we saw in Sylvanas's visions, it'd have gone even worse.

And yes, I'd rather follow a Legion puppet. Blackhand knew how to hold his Horde together and reach out to other races and unite them. If Blackhand was ruling, I'd know a competent and cunning leader was in charge. One with a truly pragmatic mind, who was at least politically competent. Ideally, we'd all be working for Doomhammer, the most ideal Orcish Warchief we've ever had.

Sure, the Horde was being too passive about the incursions onto their land. No one disagreed with that notion. Sure, the Horde was in a bad place in regards to resources, but they apparently were able to get everything they needed to rebuild Orgrimmar quickly enough. I have no issue with some aggression. Garrosh simply managed to take it past the point where it needed to go.

So when you ask what he should have done? My answer is simply this. Less. He should have done a lot less. He doesn't need to launch an attack on the Alliance and throw away his defensive escort when he has more important priorities.

You can bitch and moan about how his people were suffering, but he rebuilt Orgrimmar out of metal, effectively turning it into one massive oven. He had his secret police terrorizing his citizens into obedience by the time of Theramore.

Maybe Sylvanas isn't any better. Maybe she's worse. Maybe comparing Garrosh to Sylvanas doesn't do anything to make him look good.

[cparle87]

He met Magatha in "The Shattering" (A book), not "Heart of War" (The short story). Yes, I've read both. "Heart of War" doesn't go nearly far enough in explaining why and how he came to his attitudes, nor does it give us a point from which we can accurately track his progress. It's typical Blizzard writing, really, where a single comment is enough to count as "character development" and justify a fairly large character shift.

Sometimes one comment is all they need. Garrosh still idolized Thrall at this point, and in one fel swoop Magatha destroyed that. She hinted that Thrall deliberately chose a hostile land for their people to live in to punish them for their past sins, even the children were being made to pay for their ancestors' sins. Garrosh is actually gobsmacked by this, thinking to himself there's no way Thrall would do such a cruel thing.

[Wildberry]

And why does the Horde have much interest in concentrating the Alliance's officer class within the city? Back when Thrall was running things, they had pretty good relations with the Alliance. They had fought side by side in multiple war efforts. Many leaders of the Horde were friends with leaders of the Alliance, even if things didn't always go smoothly. So yes. He wasted Horde lives escalating a war most of them didn't really want, even if they thought some of the things the Alliance did were bullshit. There's such thing as a proportionate response.

It takes two parties to actually escalate a war, first off. Secondly it doesn't matter what "most of the Horde" [Citation Needed], or other Horde leaders thought about the war, they aren't Warchief, and there's no institutional check on the authority of a Warchief. The Horde isn't a democracy.

On the subject of why he needed to do these things, it's because his people were starving. Orgrimmar was economically reliant on the Night Elves and had trade severed for something that wasn't even remotely their fault. Negotiations aimed at restoring such relationships fell through (And Garrosh was unfairly blamed for it).

And yes. Text retcons ingame events all the time. The comics show Garrosh as a raging moron who can't understand why the concept of negotiation exists, and why people shouldn't just use murder to get what they want.

Thrall didn't wage a war to get what his people needed, look at where the Horde ended up.

The Shattering shows Garrosh jumping into needless aggression right from the start.

Oh, I thought we were disregarding "The Shattering." Are we picking and choosing and conveniently leaving out the parts that completely dismantle your point?

That Wolfheart book? It shows him being a blatant supervillain, bringing in excessive force through immoral means. And still failing.

Beasts of war are "excessive force" now? It was actually a pretty big success initially. Are we supposed to be factoring in Worgen reinforcements led by a man blessed by a demigod, now? That's not a reasonable thing to plan for.

Before blowing up Theramore, he disrespects the traditions of his people by enslaving elementals.

Baine cites the Horde in general, and references the Earth Mother twice. The Earth Mother has no bearing on the Orcs, nor are the Tauren his people.

After nuking the place, with an artifact he stole from Dragons, he leaves it unattended and almost got Orgrimmar destroyed in retaliation if Thrall hadn't talked Jaina down from it.

Was Orgrimmar destroyed? Yes or no?

He throws away his air fleet in the Twilight Highlands, because of pigheaded and pointless aggression, and eats a dragon for it. The fault is entirely on him.

The only reason that happened is because Sauranok was a twilight spy. Should we be adjusting plans to account for trusted advisors being corrupted?

I have not read or witnessed a single successful plan by Garrosh. When he does succeed, it's because someone else protected him from the negative consequences of his actions.

I could go around debunking claims of yours and listing others, but ultimately I don't need to. Are you going to disagree with the word of God here? It's a very simple yes or no. There's canonical text explicitly debunking your point. Are you going to disagree with it?

Sure, we could call them barely sentient, but isn't that what the Alliance says about the Horde? So yes, it's a blatant tragedy.

No, stop. This is not some airy, high-minded discussion about normative perspectives. The magnataur are objectively barely above beasts. These creatures are cannibals, and the closest they've come to "civilization" is managing to adopt the social structure of a lion pride ("Gammothra the Tormentor" & "Wrath of the Lich King Bestiary")

You can call Blue Dragons insignificant, but that's just showing your general disregard.

No, it's actually not. Their population had taken a massive hit during the War of the Ancients, and again in the Nexus War. They were almost extinct. I believe it was after the Iris was stolen that Kalecgos disbanded the Blue Dragonflight. Disbanded. A group with such a dismal population that it disbands is utterly irrelevant.

And as for Ebon Blade members? That Ebon Blade member had agreed to work for Sylvanas and no one really says her actions are justified or that she was right.

Are you acknowledging that legitimate authority is legitimate? Because that justifies quite a bit of Garrosh. Plenty of people here do, actually. Any "Sylvanus thread" inevitably results in people justifying Sylvanas' actions.

Garrosh also started a war with Gilneas, that the Forsaken had no real need for. So that's another brilliant plan of his that backfired.

This comes down to you not reading again. The Horde needed a port in Southern Lordaeron. It's likely that this was part of the overarching plan to attack Stormwind (Guess why we wanted to go to the recently surfaced island above Vashj'ir?). Attacking a neutral power in order to gain a better striking position against an enemy is a legitimate tactic that has been used historically a number of times. The best example of this was the Von Schlieffen Plan (An outline for a German invasion of France through Belgium).

And yes, I'd rather follow a Legion puppet. Blackhand knew how to hold his Horde together and reach out to other races and unite them.

Wrong again. In the days of Blackhand's Horde, the only non-Orcs were Ogres. Blackhand literally beat them into submission. The Forest Trolls and Steamwheedle Cartel came under Doomhammer.

If Blackhand was ruling, I'd know a competent and cunning leader was in charge. One with a truly pragmatic mind, who was at least politically competent.

You do realize that Blackhand was just a figurehead and being manipulated by Gul'dan and the Shadow Council, right? "Rise of the Horde" paints him as an egomaniacal moron who can't tell he's being played.

Sure, the Horde was being too passive about the incursions onto their land. No one disagreed with that notion. Sure, the Horde was in a bad place in regards to resources, but they apparently were able to get everything they needed to rebuild Orgrimmar quickly enough. I have no issue with some aggression.

You can bitch and moan about how his people were suffering, but he rebuilt Orgrimmar out of metal, effectively turning it into one massive oven.

So typically, aggression, especially where there are multiple points of conflict tends to escalate into full-blown wars. Add in economic and food security problems, and you're basically guaranteeing escalation.

With regard to this idea that "The Orcs must've not been faring too poorly, look at the rebuilt Orgrimmar!" Surely you don't believe something so incredibly stupid, right?

Believe it or not, lore, ironically, isn't a video game where there's some nondescript, broad currency called "resources." Mulgore was suffering from a draught ("The Shattering, p118), as was Durotar ("The Shattering, p100). Orgrimmar's citizens were going hungry and found clean water becoming scarce ("The Shattering, p93). Children starving to death, is alluded to multiple times throughout the novel. The problem wasn't that the Horde was lacking in metal. It was lacking in food, water and lumber. Things Horde territories on Kalimdor don't have in abundance, that the elemental unrest made even scarcer.

Durotar, conversely, is rich in metal. Plus, it wasn't a vanity project. Orgrimmar had been ravaged by a fire. It needed to be rebuilt. Even Cairne compliments Garrosh on this.

So when you ask what he should have done? My answer is simply this. Less. He should have done a lot less. He doesn't need to launch an attack on the Alliance and throw away his defensive escort when he has more important priorities.

I'm not speaking in broad generalities, I'm referencing the lack of food, water and lumber that the Orcs were facing. All diplomatic avenues had failed, the elemental unrest and Cataclysm had made the Horde's access to these things in their own territories even more limited. What was he supposed to do?

He had his secret police terrorizing his citizens into obedience by the time of Theramore.

Considering multiple secret, anti-Garrosh meetings, an assassination threat, and multiple comments implying conditional treason on behalf of his subjects, that's justified.

Sometimes one comment is all they need. Garrosh still idolized Thrall at this point, and in one fel swoop Magatha destroyed that. She hinted that Thrall deliberately chose a hostile land for their people to live in to punish them for their past sins, even the children were being made to pay for their ancestors' sins. Garrosh is actually gobsmacked by this, thinking to himself there's no way Thrall would do such a cruel thing.

That wasn't Magatha, actually. It was angrily claimed by Krenna, and then Gorgonna claimed it again in all sincerity in "Heart of War."

[Noradin]

Varian never won a fight against Garrosh. The only time he had upper-hand was when he was backed up and blessed by a Wolf Demi-god Goldrinn.

It was clear that without this plot, Garrosh would disgustingly murder Varian. Because even with the Demi-God powers Varian had trouble taking on Garrosh.

You have it bad don't you?
Is Garrosh your first crush?

[Deleted]

Varian never won a fight against Garrosh.

Except he won, two times.

[Deleted]

Except he won, two times.

They fought 3 times, Garrosh never died in any of them battle.

Varian escaped his death and with plot. The only fight where he started to get the upperhand was when he was blessed by Wolf God.

0 wins for Varian.

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Sure, we could call them barely sentient, but isn't that what the Alliance says about the Horde? So yes, it's a blatant tragedy. You can call Blue Dragons insignificant, but that's just showing your general disregard. And as for Ebon Blade members? That Ebon Blade member had agreed to work for Sylvanas, and no one really says her actions are justified or that she was right. Garrosh also started a war with Gilneas, that the Forsaken had no real need for. So that's another brilliant plan of his that backfired. If he'd had been given more control over it, as we saw in Sylvanas's visions, it'd have gone even worse.

And yes, I'd rather follow a Legion puppet. Blackhand knew how to hold his Horde together and reach out to other races and unite them. If Blackhand was ruling, I'd know a competent and cunning leader was in charge. One with a truly pragmatic mind, who was at least politically competent. Ideally, we'd all be working for Doomhammer, the most ideal Orcish Warchief we've ever had.

Sure, the Horde was being too passive about the incursions onto their land. No one disagreed with that notion. Sure, the Horde was in a bad place in regards to resources, but they apparently were able to get everything they needed to rebuild Orgrimmar quickly enough. I have no issue with some aggression. Garrosh simply managed to take it past the point where it needed to go.

So when you ask what he should have done? My answer is simply this. Less. He should have done a lot less. He doesn't need to launch an attack on the Alliance and throw away his defensive escort when he has more important priorities.

You can bitch and moan about how his people were suffering, but he rebuilt Orgrimmar out of metal, effectively turning it into one massive oven. He had his secret police terrorizing his citizens into obedience by the time of Theramore.

Maybe Sylvanas isn't any better. Maybe she's worse. Maybe comparing Garrosh to Sylvanas doesn't do anything to make him look good.

Both Orgrim and Blackhand had one thing in common, they only lead the Orcish people.

Orgrim had eventually got Zul'jin, the Amani Warlord as allies. But their relationship didn't go well after Orgrim dumped him to fight Alliance instead of Blood/High Elves, who were at that time hiding behind their shield in Silvermoon.

Both Blackhand and Orgrim would just like Garrosh failed to keep Thrall's Horde together, simply because they only know to lead Orcs. Blizzard made a big mistake by merging all kinds of neutral factions and Alliance allies into the Horde.

[pateuvasiliu]

Garrosh tells Thrall he doesn't want to be Warchief, Thrall tells him to shut up and that he will have good advisors.

The first good advisor, Cairne, comes to Orgrimmar, acts like a buffoon by shouting in the Grommash Keep and demanding an audition, calls Garrosh an honorless dogs, accuses him of shit he didn't do, literally backhands him and then challenges him to Mak'gora.

The second good advisor, Vol'jin, gets mad over Cairne getting himself killed, tells Garrosh he's not his warchief ( treason ) and threatens to kill him.


But yeah sure tell me more about how it's all Garrosh's fault.

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They fought 3 times, Garrosh never died in any of them battle.

Varian escaped his death and with plot. The only fight where he started to get the upperhand was when he was blessed by Wolf God.

0 wins for Varian.

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Both Orgrim and Blackhand had one thing in common, they only lead the Orcish people.

Orgrim had eventually got Zul'jin, the Amani Warlord as allies. But their relationship didn't go well after Orgrim dumped him to fight Alliance instead of Blood/High Elves, who were at that time hiding behind their shield in Silvermoon.

Both Blackhand and Orgrim would just like Garrosh failed to keep Thrall's Horde together, simply because they only know to lead Orcs. Blizzard made a big mistake by merging all kinds of neutral factions and Alliance allies into the Horde.

Garrosh would've led the Horde just fine. He was a great WARchief and made the tough calls Thrall could not.

The Twilight Hammer manipulated the Horde into infighting and when Cairne went and insulted Garrosh's honor and Grom he made everything worse.

I hate it when people rewrite history to make it look like it was Garrosh's fault. Cairne could've just gone to Orgrimmar in peace and ask Garrosh what was up. But he was arrogant and biased. Garrosh told him himself, had he attacked the Alliance he'd be shouting about it from the roof tops, Cairne didn't stop and think that they were being manipulated.

If you want to blame someone it's him.

[Aleksej89]

garrosh was just a hypocrite nazi with daddy issues who even hid behind children, using them as hostages.

if blizz was not up for keeping horde alive through "plot armor" then alliance would have ended the horde just because garrosh made 3/4 of his own horde hate him.

[Nalorakk]

Excellent during Cata, some issues during MoP but overall very enjoyable character to follow.

I miss him and characters like him.

Here's hoping BfA brings the fire back to both factions.

[Deleted]

They fought 3 times, Garrosh never died in any of them battle.

Varian escaped his death and with plot. The only fight where he started to get the upperhand was when he was blessed by Wolf God.

0 wins for Varian.

Garrosh retreated two times after being overwhelmed, therefore two defeats. What the hell are you talking about?

[Daedius]

No, he was a racist piece of trash.

[Ramz]

No he wasn't misunderstood. His motives and priorities were clear. This guy also had his own issues and insecuries - I appreciated that he pushed story forward and stirred some tenshions within the Horde, but it wasn't a leader I could get behind because from the very start he wasn't all about Horde but all about orcs. I wouldn't care that much what he would bring to alliance if he wouldn't be as much of a threat to Horde aswell. This "misunderstood" Garrosh refused to aid Thunderbluff in their time of need. Same Garrosh wasted his troops in Twilight Highlands. That was not MoP, that was Cataclysm.

[Zulkhan]

Both Orgrim and Blackhand had one thing in common, they only lead the Orcish people.

Orgrim had eventually got Zul'jin, the Amani Warlord as allies. But their relationship didn't go well after Orgrim dumped him to fight Alliance instead of Blood/High Elves, who were at that time hiding behind their shield in Silvermoon.

Both Blackhand and Orgrim would just like Garrosh failed to keep Thrall's Horde together, simply because they only know to lead Orcs. Blizzard made a big mistake by merging all kinds of neutral factions and Alliance allies into the Horde.

Orgrim possessed diplomatic skills that Garrosh could only dream about, as shown pretty clearly in Tides of Darkness. This was further reinforced in the newest Chronicle volume where it's enlightened Orgrim's intelligence in dealing with non-orcish races, treating them as equal and understanding their motives and cultures. Garrosh wasn't worth a nail of Orgrim. The alliance with the Amani went to shit primarily due to Zul'jin himself and his obsession towards High Elves, Orgrim needed to be more pragmatic than that and an obvious conflict of interests arose.

Blackhand had ego issues similar to Garrosh and because of those he ended up being manipulated by Gul'dan much like Garrosh was by Magatha. But at least, Blackhand seemed to have a strong relationship with his warriors and treated them pretty well, to the point that Orgrim outright admitted to have learned this trait from Blackhand himself; on the other hand, Garrosh barely saw his orc warriors as people but simply as an army to be thrown around like fodder. In the 5.3 you get the orc warrior trainer of Razor Hill criticizing this very aspect of Garrosh and disowning his Warchief legitimacy as a result.

[Dagoth Ur]

Orgrim possessed diplomatic skills that Garrosh could only dream about, as shown pretty clearly in Tides of Darkness. This was further reinforced in the newest Chronicle volume where it's enlightened Orgrim's intelligence in dealing with non-orcish races, treating them as equal and understanding their motives and needs. Garrosh wasn't worth a nail of Orgrim.

Man, I am so sad we never got to see Orgrim leading the Horde in WoW. He's probably the best Warchief Horde has ever had.

Orgrim was highlight and best part of the Tides of Darkness novel imo.

[Hellrime]

His emotions got slightly stronger, but he was fully in control, not a slight hint of him losing himself to the Old God. Y'Shaarj was basically his toy.

That requires incredible will-power and mental strength to do that.

And he would been caved sooner or later? Based on what? There isn't a single scar on him. Cho'gall embraced to become a minion of C'Thun. Garrosh is not like Cho'gall, he despise becoming minion to something greater than him.

That is simply not true. Garrosh had a very limited time with the power of the Old God and it was able to corrupt him that much. Willpower is not what he had, he initially felt conflicted by his father's choice to drink the demon blood, but then to turn around and eat the heart of an Old God and expecting different results? That doesn't make any sense at all. He was losing that battle rapidly. I do think they should have done some things differently with WoD and his character though.

[Deleted]

That is simply not true. Garrosh had a very limited time with the power of the Old God and it was able to corrupt him that much. Willpower is not what he had, he initially felt conflicted by his father's choice to drink the demon blood, but then to turn around and eat the heart of an Old God and expecting different results? That doesn't make any sense at all. He was losing that battle rapidly. I do think they should have done some things differently with WoD and his character though.

The Blues stated several times that Y'Shaarj was nothing but a hammer, even in the cinematic Garrosh says that he mastered the powers.

Y'Shaarj was his toy, no one knew how to master the Sha except for Garrosh. Simply because his will power to fight for his goals and pride to never bend for a greater being.

Orgrim possessed diplomatic skills that Garrosh could only dream about, as shown pretty clearly in Tides of Darkness. This was further reinforced in the newest Chronicle volume where it's enlightened Orgrim's intelligence in dealing with non-orcish races, treating them as equal and understanding their motives and cultures. Garrosh wasn't worth a nail of Orgrim. The alliance with the Amani went to shit primarily due to Zul'jin himself and his obsession towards High Elves, Orgrim needed to be more pragmatic than that and an obvious conflict of interests arose.

Blackhand had ego issues similar to Garrosh and because of those he ended up being manipulated by Gul'dan much like Garrosh was by Magatha. But at least, Blackhand seemed to have a strong relationship with his warriors and treated them pretty well, to the point that Orgrim outright admitted to have learned this trait from Blackhand himself; on the other hand, Garrosh barely saw his orc warriors as people but simply as an army to be thrown around like fodder. In the 5.3 you get the orc warrior trainer of Razor Hill criticizing this very aspect of Garrosh and disowning his Warchief legitimacy as a result.

Orgrim only allied with them because of desperate time. Garrosh did it as well with the Mantids during Siege of Orgrimmar, Taunkas during WOTLK and the Ogres in WoD.

Garrosh, Orgrim, Blackhand are pretty similar, they are true Orc leaders, but they cannot lead Alliance minded races or peace lovers. That won't work. Orgrim would kick Vol'jin out of the Horde as soon as he would threaten him.

Really, I don't believe Orgrim or Blackhand would tolerate Alliance empathy or peace lovers in their faction.

And Garrosh adores his Orc warriors as well, the Kor'kron were always used as last resort. Garrosh always tried to get rid of the "weaker/lesser" Horde like the Darkspears or Forsaken, who he didn't trust at all. Blizzard just did their best to make Garrosh look like an evil villain in Siege of Orgrimmar to randomly add Orcs like no one have heard of.

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Garrosh retreated two times after being overwhelmed, therefore two defeats. What the hell are you talking about?

Where and when did Garrosh got overwhelmed by mere human? Never. Only fight Varian got potential upper-hand was while he was blessed by DEMI-GOD. Really, if it took something like that to compete with Garrosh, there is just no way for Varian even compete Garrosh without it.

Last fight basically confirmed it where Garrosh calls Varian getting old and slow, not even taking the fight against Varian serious at all. No wonder, Varian without Demi God blessing is no threat to Garrosh.

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Garrosh tells Thrall he doesn't want to be Warchief, Thrall tells him to shut up and that he will have good advisors.

The first good advisor, Cairne, comes to Orgrimmar, acts like a buffoon by shouting in the Grommash Keep and demanding an audition, calls Garrosh an honorless dogs, accuses him of shit he didn't do, literally backhands him and then challenges him to Mak'gora.

The second good advisor, Vol'jin, gets mad over Cairne getting himself killed, tells Garrosh he's not his warchief ( treason ) and threatens to kill him.


But yeah sure tell me more about how it's all Garrosh's fault.

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Garrosh would've led the Horde just fine. He was a great WARchief and made the tough calls Thrall could not.

The Twilight Hammer manipulated the Horde into infighting and when Cairne went and insulted Garrosh's honor and Grom he made everything worse.

I hate it when people rewrite history to make it look like it was Garrosh's fault. Cairne could've just gone to Orgrimmar in peace and ask Garrosh what was up. But he was arrogant and biased. Garrosh told him himself, had he attacked the Alliance he'd be shouting about it from the roof tops, Cairne didn't stop and think that they were being manipulated.

If you want to blame someone it's him.

Let's be honest, at moment Garrosh was framed for something he didn't do. Took punch from Cairne.

Garrosh should just ordered an execution of Cairne for treason. Imagine if something like that happened to you in real life, that's literally worst feeling... getting framed for something you didn't do.

Garrosh was TOO soft and accepted the Mak'gora. And it took ANOTHER Tauren to disturb the Mak'gora to back-stab Cairne. Cairne is really disgrace, I stopped liking him when I learned his lore.

Then Vol'jin lowly using this to frame Garrosh again.... and kept complaining for the entire era of Warchief Garrosh.

[pateuvasiliu]

The Blues stated several times that Y'Shaarj was nothing but a hammer, even in the cinematic Garrosh says that he mastered the powers.

Y'Shaarj was his toy, no one knew how to master the Sha except for Garrosh. Simply because his will power to fight for his goals and pride to never bend for a greater being.



Orgrim only allied with them because of desperate time. Garrosh did it as well with the Mantids during Siege of Orgrimmar, Taunkas during WOTLK and the Ogres in WoD.

Garrosh, Orgrim, Blackhand are pretty similar, they are true Orc leaders, but they cannot lead Alliance minded races or peace lovers. That won't work. Orgrim would kick Vol'jin out of the Horde as soon as he would threaten him.

Really, I don't believe Orgrim or Blackhand would tolerate Alliance empathy or peace lovers in their faction.

And Garrosh adores his Orc warriors as well, the Kor'kron were always used as last resort. Garrosh always tried to get rid of the "weaker/lesser" Horde like the Darkspears or Forsaken, who he didn't trust at all. Blizzard just did their best to make Garrosh look like an evil villain in Siege of Orgrimmar to randomly add Orcs like no one have heard of.

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Where and when did Garrosh got overwhelmed by mere human? Never. Only fight Varian got potential upper-hand was while he was blessed by DEMI-GOD. Really, if it took something like that to compete with Garrosh, there is just no way for Varian even compete Garrosh without it.

Last fight basically confirmed it where Garrosh calls Varian getting old and slow, not even taking the fight against Varian serious at all. No wonder, Varian without Demi God blessing is no threat to Garrosh.

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Let's be honest, at moment Garrosh was framed for something he didn't do. Took punch from Cairne.

Garrosh should just ordered an execution of Cairne for treason. Imagine if something like that happened to you in real life, that's literally worst feeling... getting framed for something you didn't do.

Garrosh was TOO soft and accepted the Mak'gora. And it took ANOTHER Tauren to disturb the Mak'gora to back-stab Cairne. Cairne is really disgrace, I stopped liking him when I learned his lore.

Then Vol'jin lowly using this to frame Garrosh again.... and kept complaining for the entire era of Warchief Garrosh.

Vol'jin was a cowardly piece of shit. He said he won't follow Garrosh but he was too much of a pussy to actually challenge Garrosh himself.

He shows no respect towards the traditions of the Horde. If you don't like your warchief then challenge him to Mak'gora. But you don't get to reject him while hiding away and complaining.

[Maxilian]

He did pretty shitty things, but it trully became a problem when he started doing those shitty things to other members of the horde.

[KrakHed]

Both Orgrim and Blackhand had one thing in common, they only lead the Orcish people..

Then why do people keep asking for Ogres? Or did you forget the Old Horde had Ogres, the ancient enemies of their people, yet recruited them by understanding their culture and desires? Which was done way back in the days of Blackhand.

Which is to say, Blackhand was able to be diplomatic with a race his people had hated for as long as they had existed, while Garrosh was so abrasive he alienated races who were already their allies.

That last part is important. The Horde and Alliance generally tolerated a certain degree of conflict and skirmishing before going to all out war. The Alliance's tolerance of Garrosh's bullshit was pretty much the only way he got as far as he did, and Orgrimmar was never nuked in retribution for Theramore. It's easy to make gains when the other faction is keeping the kid gloves on, and still thinks you can be reasoned with.

As we're seeing in BfA, the Alliance is more than capable of doing major damage to the Horde should those kid gloves ever come off. So the Horde kept to minor border disputes and skirmishing, because they weren't willing to go all in to try to destroy the Alliance when they didn't even particularly dislike the Alliance too much.

[Wildberry]

Which is to say, Blackhand was able to be diplomatic with a race his people had hated for as long as they had existed, while Garrosh was so abrasive he alienated races who were already their allies.

Blackhand literally beat them into submission. Ogres weren't brought into the Horde "diplomatically."

Blackhand also relied on violence to bend the Orcish clans to his will. He publically executed those who spoke out against him, and threatened entire clans with annihilation if they tried to resist him. In contrast, Garrosh looks tolerant, considering his handling of secret dissident meetings and outright threats.