Ethics and Loyalty to an employer?

[Endus]

The only contract for employment that the owner of my company will sign is if he's paid for an education (which I didn't want to be a part of). Even our GM doesn't have a contract.

I'm not saying that's a bad way to run things.

I'm saying that those kinds of contracts are how an employer shows loyalty to its staff, by guaranteeing their employment. And loyalty is a two-way street.

[Blamblam41]

Honestly, stick it out.

As you mentioned, it's still a somewhat small company, whose success is just starting to excel. They have promoted you, and provided you with opportunity for empowerment and improvement.

If you keep on your current path, you will continue to work up the ladder to more success. You can't just measure success and employment satisfaction by pay alone. Are they treating you right, are you given the tools to succeed, are you given good training and licensing?

Sounds like you have a pretty sweet deal.

Or the company goes under next year because the family wants to pull out and you're screwed.

Literally what happened to my father in '08.

[Theinquisition]

I'd absolutely bring up an offer from another company. If for no other reason, just to remind them them that wages are, in fact, subpar. This isn't our grandparents' era in which we stick it out at a workplace for 40+ years. We transfer laterally, often. I think I read not long ago, usually every 4-5 years.

OP: If you want to stay with that company, and you have faith that they'll grow, but they cannot pay competitive wages, can you ask for an ownership stake? You said it was "small" and "family" so....

No, absolutely not.

Once you bring up the idea that you are looking elsewhere, the company will start planning to ether.

a. replace you
b. Not promote you.

- - - Updated - - -

Or the company goes under next year because the family wants to pull out and you're screwed.

Literally what happened to my father in '08.

Anything can happen, I imagine given their upward trend, that they aren't in danger of failing

[belfpala]

No, absolutely not.

Once you bring up the idea that you are looking elsewhere, the company will start planning to ether.

a. replace you
b. Not promote you.

It depends how you bring it up. It's not "match this offer or I'm leaving!!!" It can be, "Hey, I got this offer for $x from Company Y. It's tempting, but I'd rather stay here." Also, if it's "small" and "family" I'd be more confident in bringing it up.

[Ulsaki]

Fuck loyalty. Companies are not loyal to you, and never will be. You will be axed the moment you're an inconvenience. Don't believe me? Your head will almost certainly be on the chopping block if sales take a downturn.

If they respect and value you, they won't underpay you. At a very minimum, they would address this if brought to their attention.

Loyalty does not pay, to get what you're worth you have to job hop. The only person looking out for you is you. If you don't, no one will.

Promising a promotion is a standard put up and shut up tactic. It's a similar tactic to pay reviews, where they're hoping you'll forget.

In my career I've seen plenty of cases where good and skilled people were not paid their value. New recruits earning more than a highly skilled employee a PhD and years of experience at the company. People doubling their salary to do the same job down the road because the current employer did not pay anywhere near market value.

Also: never accept a counter offer. If your employee desperately gives you a rise as you're about to leave, they don't value you. It also marks you as disloyal. Yes, they hypocritically demand loyalty while doing nothing to deserve it.

[Mormolyce]

The only negative thing about this whole situation is that my current pay is almost 30% less than the industry standard for my position. I have brought it up in the past, and the answer is always something along the lines of "you know we're growing, and you're a part of that. You'll get yours when the opportunity arises for a management position". In the meantime, I'm offered side projects and other opportunities to pick up overtime, and am often compensated for much more than the hours I've actually put in. Despite all of that, it still doesn't add up to as much as I could be making elsewhere.

If you were in my shoes, would you continue to stick it out because of the loyalty your employer has showed, or would you see the lack of pay as a sign of being used? The phrase "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" seems to really apply here, and is one of the main reasons I've stuck it out. It has become more pressing lately after I received an offer from a headhunter for $30k more / year than I'm currently making, and I really don't want to be "that guy" who uses it as leverage against a company that's treated me so well.

I've been in that exact position before, entered a business on a fairly low wage and after several years had a good thing going other than being underpaid relative to the industry. Because it was a good place I stuck with it longer than I really should've. When I finally left for an equivalent role in another business, I got a 50% pay rise out of it.

Honestly, I'd advise moving on.

[vindicatorx]

Kinda in the same boat as you OP.
I was a fresh graduate from University and I was in my 30's when I finally got that degree. Took about 11 months to land a job in Software development. The company is a small IT consultation place with around 100 or so employees in North and South Dakota. I had to sign a 2 year contract, move to a shit location, and I started @Around half normal pay rate and was given a precise schedule for raises. The first 2 years were great I literally left work at noon most days, got multiple recognition awards like Employee of the quarter, no real stress at all. Sure the people in charge of the project I've been on for a week shy of 2 years are complete idiots but hey I make double what I did when I started almost and work a 4 hour work day. Now, the thing is there is no reason at all to work in an office and I absolutely hate living in SD. My company also lets people work remotely full time after they prove they can handle it. Boss did my 2 year review and said basically it's not happening. So, I am prepping my resume for February because I would rather work more than live in SD.

[Deleted]

If you were in my shoes, would you continue to stick it out because of the loyalty your employer has showed, or would you see the lack of pay as a sign of being used? The phrase "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" seems to really apply here, and is one of the main reasons I've stuck it out. It has become more pressing lately after I received an offer from a headhunter for $30k more / year than I'm currently making, and I really don't want to be "that guy" who uses it as leverage against a company that's treated me so well.

I see this a lot with younger people. You are anthropomorphizing a business. It is kind of ridiculous.

Corporations are not your friend. Ultimately the corporation has to make decisions that maximize its own profit. In the long run it will go bust if it doesn't do that. For that reason corporations are essentially sociopathic, they have to be, even if the individuals who work in management might be at heart good people.

By the same token, you aren't being used. You are being paid what you are worth, which is what you accept. The corporation is not your friend, it doesn't owe you anything other than what it contractually agrees to pay you. It has no emotion or conscience and you shouldn't either when dealing with it.

Do what is best for you. The corporation will do what is best for it.

[shadowmouse]

They have a layoff every year, where they let go of the veterans with a golden handshake and the new folks that didn't cut it. Then they go and hire another few hundred and repeat next year.

Avoid them like the plague for just what you described.

[Doktor Faustus]

You need a target date of when your opportunity will come.

Seems like you enjoy the working environment and ethos, is that more important than the money? Could that be emulated elsewhere?

[Strawberry]

We can only give you guidance but you should ultimately make your own decision.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation although it doesn't have to do anything with loyalty but benefits.
I work in a governmnent organization. I get 31 days of paid vacation days per year and many other benefits, like if I decide to study I will always have this job when I come back in few years.
Private sector on the other side gives 25 days of paid vacation per year, won't allow me to study for a longer period, but the pay is 25% higher (for the same IT work I do at the government company).
So for me it's basically more pay for less free time and since I plan to study in the future, potentially becoming unemployed after my studies.

How old are you? If you're young, maybe it's worth staying with the company and finally getting that managment position. You're investing your time and trust though. Think and plan carefully. Will it pay off in 5 years? In 10? How old will you be in 10 years? Maybe by the time you get that managment position you'll be too old and maybe close to retirement (hey we have some 50+ year old folks here ), you would've been better off leaving now for another company and earning 30% more.

[Dezerte]

The chances are much greater that your employer is using you. We can't really tell though, exceptions always exist. I think you should ultimately do what you feel is right.

[XDurionX]

No wonder they're successful if they pay 30% less wages and are able to put their employees off for the future. If they'd truly value you, they'd put their money where their mouths are.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It's a gamble that could pay big to stay. Once expansion happens and you move up the sky could be the limit. Of course it could stay flat as well. Only you can judge if you think this place is going up and if the wave is worth it. We just internet folk here without your insights.

Don't under value having a good work place. I have refused jobs that were 10% more pay because I didn't like a manager or really like who i worked with. Bigger companies often pay more but you will end up just a number at most of them. Again, only you can tell yourself if you really love a place and then look at the place you are going and determine this. Just be warned the more literature they throw at you about how great it is.. the more robotic and slimmy the reality usually is.

But in the end you have to remember you, the company, and everyone else is in a game for success. So don't let loyalty blind you. But also don't totally ignore it if you feel it. Because you feel it for a reason. Determine if it is because of bullshit reasons or if it's real. If its real you know it's for a good reason. Run with it then. If it ends up just being safety net loyality or never knowing anything else loyalties then consider thinking about it.

[Deleted]

There is no loyalty when it comes to employment. They might treat you nice and you might have perks, but you are replaceable, and don't think they'd lose any sleep over firing you if it was better for the company. I'd take that offer to the boss and ask if they can match it if you'd like to stay. If they say no, take the other offer. 30k a year over the next ten years is enough to buy a really nice house.

[Danner]

So I come to the guidance and wisdom of Gen-OT with a question about whether I'm making the right decision about remaining loyal to the company I work for. Here's the bullet points to keep this short and sweet...

- Aerospace Manufacturing Company, roughly 140 employees
- 4th Generation Family owned and operated
- Very loyal to employees and their families in most ways (understanding of personal time, family crisis, etc etc)
- Growing Rapidly (14m in sales to 45m in sales in 10 years, backlog that rolls up to almost 60m in sales by 2020)

I've been working there for 11 years, and started on the loading dock. I was promoted through 4 different positions, and am currently a senior purchasing agent. My Manager is a really great guy, as well as a great teacher and mentor. I've always been treated fairly, and am being "groomed" so to speak for management (some day).

The only negative thing about this whole situation is that my current pay is almost 30% less than the industry standard for my position. I have brought it up in the past, and the answer is always something along the lines of "you know we're growing, and you're a part of that. You'll get yours when the opportunity arises for a management position". In the meantime, I'm offered side projects and other opportunities to pick up overtime, and am often compensated for much more than the hours I've actually put in. Despite all of that, it still doesn't add up to as much as I could be making elsewhere.

If you were in my shoes, would you continue to stick it out because of the loyalty your employer has showed, or would you see the lack of pay as a sign of being used? The phrase "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" seems to really apply here, and is one of the main reasons I've stuck it out. It has become more pressing lately after I received an offer from a headhunter for $30k more / year than I'm currently making, and I really don't want to be "that guy" who uses it as leverage against a company that's treated me so well.

Depends on factors.

How much do you need the extra money, vs how much do you enjoy the current company?
How much do you need the extra money right now, vs how much do you believe your wages will improve in the future? (ie, do you believe your company will make it big?)

Normally, the latter question is a sucker's question. Companies promising to pay you more in the future are just pulling your legs. Companies are legally obligated to behave like psychopaths, and should be treated accordingly. Don't trust anything they say, and don't hesitate to drop them if you get a better option. Because they will. That is tit-for-tat.

But every now and then you have the honorable business owner, which won't fire you on the first possible opportunity. They may not be able to pay you the best wage ever, but they won't throw you away like toilet paper if it means a $10 bonus to the major stockholder. They won't outsource your entire department to india because they think they can save 2% on expenses.

Employers like that are rare, and I personally have the greatest respect for them. From what you have told, it sounds like your company could be one of those. And as a person who once started in a 20 man struggling company, and stuck with it to the point where we have a market majority today, I can attest that there is good fortunes to people who stick it out (provided the company is making it big rather than just fail). But respect and perseverance won't get you food on the table. So the question is again - do you need that money now? And do you believe your company will hold their word?

From an employer's perspective; I can attest that management grooming is a time-consuming process you don't do with everyone. Only with the employees you seriously believe in, people that have both the right mindset and the right people skills. Middle management is the cogs that make a company churn, and having the right people in that position is everything. I can also attest that we keep on losing engineers who get better deals elsewhere - we can't match offers where my coworkers are offered more than the head of my company. That doesn't mean we don't want to match those offers. Money is just money. I am sure that if you told your boss that you had a $30k offer elsewhere, they would counteroffer you something. Maybe not $30k though.

[Aoyi]

A couple questions for you regarding this.

1. Are you happy at your current job and living situation?
2. Do you find yourself struggling financially to keep this position?
3. You said 30% below industry standard, but what about those in your field in your state/immediate area?

The last question is an important one, because your cost of living in your state can easily be 30% lower than the average for someone in your field depending on where you live. In certain jobs, you'll find that your ratio of income:cost of living may be higher than the industry average even though your salary is below the industry average.

Personally, I feel if your answers to 1 is yes and 2 is no, then I'd say stay with the company. Knowing you are in a good job that you enjoy can be far more valuable than making more money. Of course, the decision is ultimately up to you, but I've made the move for money before and ended up far less happy because of it.

[Cheze]

Look for another job

when you get that other job offer, go to your employer and have a frank discussion about your pay. It may be that you've slipped through the cracks and they're happy to bring you up to industry standard. It may be that they habitually don't increase pay commensurate with the industry because they know people don't like to change jobs. In any case, at that point you'll have options.

Don't put the company ahead of yourself out of some feeling of loyalty, because that loyalty will never be reciprocated by the company (unless you happen to be a stockholder, maybe)

[Themius]

Don't see the point in loyalty... companies are there to make money.. I am here to also make money. Not to be loyal..

if something makes sense I'm going there. Which includes comfort, comfort + money + time = you have me. You're not getting my loyalty though unless I am in some C office position, forget about it.

[helebelemon]

That's what I'm worried about. The job offer is with a Forbes Top 100 Company, and they are known for their annual "purges". The growth potential is enormous, but I would just be a number that is able to be crossed out on a whim.

That would be my biggest concern as well. What state are you from and what has been the regional trend? Here in Washington, Boeing has been doing this for a very good decade and even the subcontractors feel it. They're currently migrating to Arizona and Carolina and the only way I'd make the move to this other opportunity is if it's in a region that's become a trend as you're more likely to be canned at the larger company earlier than you are canned at your smaller company. Of course, don't ignore the obvious signs--if work is slowing down where you are and your company is starting to plateau or even drop, I'd consider making the move.