Let's talk about Sylvanas (No she isnt evil).

[Beerbill Society]

What is evil?

/thread

Sylvanas is amazing, I love the character and I hope her history goes on as long as possible, my only fear is that they will ruin the character on one of those bullshit novels (like romancing Nathanos or any creepy necrophiliac shit that they may came up to), just like they did with Jaina (and her fetish for mage lizards).

Even though I currently play ally, I have a crush in the dark lady since my first forsaken, she is the heart of the forsaken slaughter machine and should be that way, remorseless, cold blooded psycho undead.

[Deleted]

i am alliance and played alliance since bc, and i agree with all those points. my brother started same time as me but hes horde. the day the cinematic came out we argued for an hour or so about wth does all this mean. regardless of how some of this seems clearly out of whack, we came to the conclusion that sylvannas isnt actually bad. she might be crazy but shes not evil. I made the same points,

1. As how she actually was asked to retreat from the broken shore. she didnt chose to.
2. genn is just losing his shit honestly ever since she killed his son. Which also she didnt intend, she was aiming for genn, he jumped in the middle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5KP2irP9zE
3. there is casual banter between her and varian wrynn on the broken shore.

the fact that she burnt down a tree or did whatever doesnt really go against her. I mean shes warchief of the horde and undead at that. flowers and fairies dont really go with that theme. killing and skulls do. I am alliance I can see that.

If anyone DOES infact want to point out the issues with her they are very much
1. Putress, grand apothecary: It is shown as varimathras' plan but please it would be total bias to say sylvannas had absolutely no idea. she is one of the most clever and intelligent people in the game. im sure she was not totally unaware.
2. If the above is true, then she has a hand in the death of Saurfang's son. Just as thrall feels responsible for the crap garrosh caused, she should too. Putress was one of her people and her subjects. Cant just say, well iam queen oh but im not responsible. thats not good management.
3. In Cata, Garrosh is the one that stops her from using the plague on gilneas (one of his redeeming moments).

Of course. she is not some goody two shoes. shes undead, gone through multiple hells and always under attack.

What ppl need to accept though is that they keep trying to pass the horde of as the moral high ground vindicators. Thats not them. The horde is survival. They dont have great lands, techs a bit behind, refinement isnt there. So they make up for that by banding together and supporting each other. Their history isnt a great one. They blew up their planet and are refugees. As a misfit family. No matter what they do they cant get away from that. Just as Garrosh says to Grom in the novel "we never recover".

Conversely the alliance will be this band of monarch led peoples who believe more on social than swords. e.g Mak'gora is orc culture. Knighthood is human culture, but knighthood does not have death duels to claim supremacy in this world, there are no chiefs, there are ranks. Think about it. This planet is their home. there was no horde before the orcs came. The tauren and the trolls were not part of any big organization or even banded together. Even though the alliance wasnt what it is now, the elves of quel thalas, the humans of stormwind and lordeoron and the dwarves of khaz modan were together. Not like now but not enemies either.

Thats just how it will be. The horde dealing with its past never able to outrun it, bringing together multiple races for survival. The alliance trying to deal with sharing its planet with a force that came from outside and unable to do, providing a more normal way of life. It if wasnt for the horde, this would probably be world of farm craft. This is why many people complain that alliance gets so much spotlight and horde doesnt. What they dont get is, the story is about the alliance, but the plot twist is the horde, because without it, it would be one hell of a boring story.

This amazing person gets it. You're the 1st person ive seen that actually gets it....faith in WoW community restored

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

cute op, but the banshee queen will burn

For Gilneas.

[Banshee Prince]

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Sylvanas. Her humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of psychology and anthropology most of the jokes will go over a typical player’s head. There’s also Sylvanas’ nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into her characterisation- her personal philosophy draws heavily from Christie Golden literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they’re not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Sylvanas truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the humour in Sylvanas’ existential catchphrase “We are the Forsaken,” which itself is a cryptic reference to Warcraft 3. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Chris Metzen’s genius wit unfolds itself on their computer monitor screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

[Heavens Night]

What is evil?

/thread

Sylvanas is amazing, I love the character and I hope her history goes on as long as possible, my only fear is that they will ruin the character on one of those bullshit novels (like romancing Nathanos or any creepy necrophiliac shit that they may came up to), just like they did with Jaina (and her fetish for mage lizards).

Even though I currently play ally, I have a crush in the dark lady since my first forsaken, she is the heart of the forsaken slaughter machine and should be that way, remorseless, cold blooded psycho undead.

It never ceases to amaze me how some folks just blindly look past all the horror.

Smell the coffee time: Sylvanas is a cold, empty, psychotic shell of her former self. She doesn't care about "the horde" no matter how many times horde fan bois/girlz nerdgasm when she shouts it. All she gives a shit about is using whatever and whoever she can to progress her own diabolical plans. Plans which are murder, slavery and torture, and of course dictatorial rule by fear.

I suggest taking a long hard look at the things she has done, and her motivation.

[Aoyi]

I don't know that she fits the outright evil label, but she is morally questionable at best. Evil would require her to understand that her actions are wrong and I don't think she's capable of that understanding. She raises people from death against their will just like the Lich King did now. During the Siege of Orgrimmar, she basically said that anyone who fell would be raised to follow her (even joking she hoped Lor'thamar had died too). In Warcrimes, her plan to get her family together was to kill her sister Vereesa (peacefully in her sleep) and raise her into undeath so they could be together. So again, not pure evil, but I don't think she has any understanding of what's right or wrong anymore. They explored it more in Warcrimes that the undead don't really feel any emotions or "connect" with people the way they once did. She was shocked at the feelings she felt for Vereesa and didn't know it was still possible to feel anything. They'll probably explore these things more in the upcoming novel and give us the reason why she wants to start a war with the Alliance again so soon after the events of Legion. We know she's planning on doing something to Stormwind, so we'll just have to see how successful that attack is in the book and how it sparked the events in the cinematic.

[Flurryfang]

If you think Sylvanas is just evil, then you must have a very narrow mind. Everything lately points to the opposite.

Let us review Sylvanas

Legion Intro - She shows clear respect for varian, and even saves his life by attacking an infernal that was no threat to heir own airship.

Broken shore - She VISIBLE hesitates to call for a retreat, despite a direct order from her warchief, only when he pleads for her to save lives does she call the retreat, using her val'kyr to carry wounded soldiers to safety, and later on the boat when she realises the consequence of her actions, she again show visible regret.

She is reluctant as all hell to pick up the mantle of warchief, but it is vol'jins dying wish that she does so.

Broken Isles - Here she clearly had an ulterior motive from the beginning, she has learnt of helya beforehand and she seeks to strike a bargain, because she has seen what awaits beyond undead, and she fears it, as would anyone. Her actions are cruel, crude and desperate, and because of this, she does also fail.

Before the Storm Prologue Chapter - She shows no real affection for the horde, displays clear annoyance over her being warchief and she is deeply offended by the desolate council and their will to not extend their lives any further. She also seems intent on bringing the war to the Alliance, probably more a matter of wanting Greymanes head on a platter.

- Now here we have a gap in the story, because some major shit clearly goes down between here and BFA main story with zandalar and kul'tiras.

But in the BFA Cinematic, we can see a horde ravaged by internal conflict and distrust, they lack zeal, they lack motivaiton and they lack belief in their cause. And this is apparent more so in Sylvanas than anyone else, she show genuine concern mixed with anger over the situation and eventually, she snaps. She goes into full on offense and disregards her own safety completely, she singlehandedly decimates several alliance soldiers and with a howling banshee cry she echoes one of the, if not THE most genuine "FOR THE HORDE" I've ever heard in Warcraft history. And you can SEE the light return to Saurfangs eyes, you can see him echo her zeal, you can see that he now see the Warchief in her. I never thought Sylvanas was fit to be warchief, I've for the longest time thought that an old school Thrall needed to return.

But you know what? The sylvanas I saw in that cinematic? I would follow her into battle any day. She was a true leader from that moment onwards, and you could tell, she now felt the horde for what it is. Her misfit extended Family.

Sylvanas is being taken in an amazing direction, and I applaud Blizzard for finally casting aside tropes and bullshit hollywood storyline thinking and going for something far more subtle, but much more effective.

This is very clear to someone with many years of fantasy reading and character development behind them. There have been subtle hints for a long time that Sylvanas is growing into something more than a powerhungry undead afraid of her final death.

Well said sir, well said. Good arguements for your own opinion and i get you I personally still find it a bit hard to imagine Sylvanas in the glorious Warchief role, but that has more to do with me being used to orcs on the throne and not so much with her character

But it is quite intersting, that the BFA Sylvanas actually looked like a Warchief who is backed by the rest of the Horde, not just a warchief out of chance, that the others reluctantly accept. Hopefully the BFA storyline is gonna cement, that Sylvanas deserves to be Warchief and that she takes the role to heart, even with her race being so unique.... Or we will see her fight her way through the expansion trying to get away from the responsiblity and finally step down in favor of someone more wanting of the position, which can be good aswell

[Megas Elekmatos]

What they dont get is, the story is about the alliance, but the plot twist is the horde, because without it, it would be one hell of a boring story.

This right here has always been a huge problem. From a storytelling view it may have some merit. However; telling around half the player base they are just a plot twist explains so much of the hate for the faction lore as it is. I don't ever see it being fixed; but it needs to be improved upon.

[Scrysis]

Just because she's a layered character does not mean she's not evil. Most evil people do not see themselves as evil, they have feelings, sense of duty, valor and such.

Sylvanas sees her own people as tools to keep herself alive. She spreads the curse of undeath knowing it damns the souls of the afflicted. Under her regime, humans have been put into forced labor camps and experimented on. Despite not needing land to feed her people, she has commanded a campaign over nearby nations and used weapons of mass destruction that not only kill people but taint the land. And, despite all her talk about free will, she saw no problem in enslaving Eyir for her own needs.

Sylvanas is a typical dictator that will fake kindness towards others as long as they are doing what she wants. People are tools to her, she will respect them only so long as they are useful. At some point, her vengeance was all that mattered, now, she's worried only about her own survival.

She's also an hypocrite that laments her own cursed existence while killing and damning others to the same fate.

She's just cunning enough to hide her true intentions and manipulate others into her schemes, and that's it.

At some point, however, her plans and schemes will unravel, and she'll meet retribution. She's gonna he hoisted by her own petard.

This. She regards everyone as a tool for her agenda, which is useful for creating a faction-based expansion. If you read the writing on the wall, they're setting her up for a take down at or near the end of the next expansion. You have the foreshadowing by Varithrimas, and the new introduction of the Desolate Council. The only questions are when, where, and how. I *might* have considered a heroic turn-around, IF they hadn't introduced the Desolate Council. With the Desolate Council, they have a leadership replacement for the Forsaken (clearly Bolvar was too awesome for the role). So we're going to see one more Horde faction boss being taken out: Sylvanas and her loyal companion, Blightcaller. A council also introduces an interesting element in that it signals perhaps more investment in the Forsaken as their own people and not as Sylvanas' minions, and perhaps more negotiation with the rest of the Horde.

I think that Lorthemar, leader of the Blood Elves, will be the next Horde warchief.

[Deleted]

If you think Sylvanas is just evil, then you must have a very narrow mind. Everything lately points to the opposite.

Let us review Sylvanas

Legion Intro - She shows clear respect for varian, and even saves his life by attacking an infernal that was no threat to heir own airship.

Broken shore - She VISIBLE hesitates to call for a retreat, despite a direct order from her warchief, only when he pleads for her to save lives does she call the retreat, using her val'kyr to carry wounded soldiers to safety, and later on the boat when she realises the consequence of her actions, she again show visible regret.

She is reluctant as all hell to pick up the mantle of warchief, but it is vol'jins dying wish that she does so.

Broken Isles - Here she clearly had an ulterior motive from the beginning, she has learnt of helya beforehand and she seeks to strike a bargain, because she has seen what awaits beyond undead, and she fears it, as would anyone. Her actions are cruel, crude and desperate, and because of this, she does also fail.

Before the Storm Prologue Chapter - She shows no real affection for the horde, displays clear annoyance over her being warchief and she is deeply offended by the desolate council and their will to not extend their lives any further. She also seems intent on bringing the war to the Alliance, probably more a matter of wanting Greymanes head on a platter.

- Now here we have a gap in the story, because some major shit clearly goes down between here and BFA main story with zandalar and kul'tiras.

But in the BFA Cinematic, we can see a horde ravaged by internal conflict and distrust, they lack zeal, they lack motivaiton and they lack belief in their cause. And this is apparent more so in Sylvanas than anyone else, she show genuine concern mixed with anger over the situation and eventually, she snaps. She goes into full on offense and disregards her own safety completely, she singlehandedly decimates several alliance soldiers and with a howling banshee cry she echoes one of the, if not THE most genuine "FOR THE HORDE" I've ever heard in Warcraft history. And you can SEE the light return to Saurfangs eyes, you can see him echo her zeal, you can see that he now see the Warchief in her. I never thought Sylvanas was fit to be warchief, I've for the longest time thought that an old school Thrall needed to return.

But you know what? The sylvanas I saw in that cinematic? I would follow her into battle any day. She was a true leader from that moment onwards, and you could tell, she now felt the horde for what it is. Her misfit extended Family.

Sylvanas is being taken in an amazing direction, and I applaud Blizzard for finally casting aside tropes and bullshit hollywood storyline thinking and going for something far more subtle, but much more effective.

This is very clear to someone with many years of fantasy reading and character development behind them. There have been subtle hints for a long time that Sylvanas is growing into something more than a powerhungry undead afraid of her final death.

She uses banned chemical weapons
She's burnt down a world tree
She raises the dead against there will
She despises her own allies
She burns Down a fucking world tree starting a new war

She is evil and she will die. Nurf said

Any one who dosent think she's evil needs to take a really good look in the mirror and evaluate there morals because sylvanas is guilty of crimes the same as hittler, sadam, assad and gaddafi and there evil isn't even debatable

[Darkeon]

I agree she isn't evil. She is far from a saint too. And that's the kind of characters that Warcraft desperately needs.

It's truly a shame that people seem to have issues enjoying characters that have more than a tone of personality. Either they are a goodie two shoes or they demand their head on a spike, because the character is literally Hitler.

[DeicideUH]

I *might* have considered a heroic turn-around, IF they hadn't introduced the Desolate Council.

For some reason I think this Desolate Council (or most of it) won't be alive for a long time... They challenged her, she will need to deal with them.
I think she could have a heroic turn-around if Blizzard explores the reunion with her sisters. If that dying elf by her side in the Teldrassil pictures is indeed Vereesa, thought, that pretty much defines her point of no return.

[david0925]

I think Sylvanas is an interesting character; it's her overzealous fans that I can't stand (you can say the same for many characters).

[Ryusei]

Started worgen genocide because she couldn't raise them as undead.
Wanted to use special chemicals to kill all the living creatures on her path, thankfully, bitchslapped out of it by Garrosh.
Almost enslaved Eyir because she wants to live forever.
One day decides that it's a good idea to start a 4th world war and burns down Teldrassil.

Yeah, she's not evil, she's batshit crazy and needs to be killed asap.

[Cedon]

Why is everyone saying Sylvanas refuses to accept death and is afraid to die? Anyone else remember her explicitly stating to Vol'jin, after he said the Loa were coming to claim him, "In the end, death claims us all." Doesn't sound at all like a person who is afraid of death or refuses to accept it. Quite the opposite actually.

People are forgetting that from her emergence in WC3 until the end of Wrath of the Lich King, she had one goal - defeat Arthas. First in the defense of Quel'thalas as he marched to the Sunwell to resurrect Kel'thuzad, and later revenge for what he did to her. After he was gone, she had a new goal. In spite of their current form, the Foresaken are the rightful people of Lordaeron. They didn't have a choice about what was done to them. So she turned to making sure they survived as opposed to simply wasting away.

Even now, as she creates new Forsaken, they are given a choice. If you hang out in Deathknell, you'll see the Val'kyr raising corpses and asking them to serve. Some join, others return to their graves.

- - - Updated - - -

Started worgen genocide because she couldn't raise them as undead.
Wanted to use special chemicals to kill all the living creatures on her path, thankfully, bitchslapped out of it by Garrosh.

Actually, Garrosh order her to attack Gilneas. It was a trap. He wanted the Worgen exterminated but he also wanted the Forsaken exterminated too. If the Forsaken failed, they'd either be killed off by the Worgen or weakened to the point he could exterminate them himself as traitors for failing. If they won, the Worgen would be killed and the Forsaken weakened so that Garrosh could finish them off.

Why do you think he freaked out in Silverpine when he discovered that she found a way to resurrect more Forsaken? Why do you think he explicitly ordered her not to use the Blight in the attack on Gilneas even though it was assured victory? It's not because Garrosh had any morals. It was because he wanted to rid himself of the Forsaken but if they easily took Gilneas and were able to replenish their numbers, he couldn't easily wipe them out.

[Soeroah]

I love Sylvanas, and if she ever dies it'll be a loss.

I know a lot of people like casting her as an irredemable monster, but I think she's got this nice pseudo-balance where yes, she does monstrous, awful things and should be stopped, but she also shows signs that she COULD be redeemed, or that her actions aren't necessarily a part of her personality. It's largely through Sylvanas that we see Undead have their emotions warped and twisted to serve the ressurector's purposes; she can feel anger and hatred far more easily than she can feel happiness or love, and even when she feels those emotions they are twisted in such a way that they would have served the Lich King's purposes. Her ideal solution to missing Vareesa was to kill her and raise her as a queen of the Undercity alongside herself - a lot of people find that to be something that proves Sylvanas is evil, but to me it's simply tragic; she THINKS that's the best solution, and she is twisted enough by being undead that she can't connect with her living self's emotions on the matter to realise that's a horrible idea.

It makes the Forsaken as whole more interesting, to me - one of the most interesting races in the playable roster, potentially.

[Highwhale]

TBC - Illidan - alive.

Was dead since end of TBC until Legion retcon.

WoD - Grom - alive.

It was Gul'dan whos dead too.

- - - Updated - - -

TBC - Illidan - alive.

Was dead since end of TBC until Legion retcon.

WoD - Grom - alive.

It was Gul'dan who is dead too.

[Minikin]

This right here has always been a huge problem. From a storytelling view it may have some merit. However; telling around half the player base they are just a plot twist explains so much of the hate for the faction lore as it is. I don't ever see it being fixed; but it needs to be improved upon.

i agree. issue is its hard to do so in a non fictional universe (bias and emotions), near impossible in a fictional universe with 2 good sides. in every story theres one CLEAR good side and one CLEAR bad side. like no arguments. You know sauron is bad. you know frodo is good. you know voldemort is bad and you know harry is good. Issue is we got two factions here and they dont see eye to eye on multiple things. Moment I say varian is good, I have to say garrosh is good too. But the problem is i know what varian almost did to moira and what garrosh did do to theramore. If i say greymane is good then I have to say sylvannas is good too, but I know what genn did in stormhiem (he shot first on those ships) and i know what sylvannas wanted to do in gilneas but was stopped by Garrosh.

It becomes problematic and in the end they are in the business of making money first, then telling the story. They have to pick an easy route thats "half way happy" (stranger things 2!!!) for both sides.

- - - Updated - - -

This amazing person gets it. You're the 1st person ive seen that actually gets it....faith in WoW community restored

that is high praise sir, thank you

[gcsmith]

Yes she's evil, for one simple thing. She thinks being undead is torture, but raises others into that torture to act as a wall for her. That is evil.

[Schattenlied]

If you think Sylvanas is just evil, then you must have a very narrow mind. Everything lately points to the opposite.

She attempted to enslave an entire race of beings (the Valkyr), that is evil, there's nothing narrow minded about that. Slavery is never acceptable, it is always evil, therefore she is.