What is the correct version of "Vanilla"?

[Marston]

Hello there.

So, J. Allen Brack said at Blizzcon that it will take time to make these servers. They need to talk with the community of what Vanilla actually is. He then said the by now at least a bit infamous UBRS 5 man vs. 10 man comment, but I am sure he just meant the change from 5 man dungeons being capped at 10 players being reduced to being capped at 5.

So, what I am getting at here, Vanilla had many, many changes throughout its lifetime. From all those stability changes and bug fixes to the big things: Adding new dungeons and raids, introducing Battlegrounds, revamping many, many classes and their talent trees and so on and so forth.

The main question here is basically:

Is 1.12 really the definitive version? With the revamped talents, the fact that we can get T0.5, Dire Maul is unlocked and raids like Zul'Gurub and Ahn'Qiraj 20 exists in that patch, it reduces the overall difficulty of early endgame content. Now, maybe they stagger raids, but would they also remove Maraudon and Dire Maul at release, since that was patch content? What about T0.5? Do we not get Battlegrounds at release, which in turn comes with their faction and the gear you can buy? And if we are talking about BGs, which version is the correct one? Alterac had many changes throughout Classic, removing many NPCs and weakening the remaining ones - do we want that, the 1.11+ version, or do we want the early one, where all crazy NPCs where still there? What about the opening of AQ, will it open automatically after X months? I know this was added later, but I am not sure if it was during Vanilla or in TBC.

Those are just some of the questions both Blizzard and we as a community have to answer. I mean, what is the correct answer here? Even excluding stuff like "Adding Transmog", "Adding Achievements", "Making specs viable", what "Vanilla" do we actually want? Do you have an answer?

[Xecks]

stagger the patches. start with the beginning and then patch in a few months to the next

[Marston]

stagger the patches. start with the beginning and then patch in a few months to the next

But would that mean we would also have all the bugs from back then?

[Deleted]

But would that mean we would also have all the bugs from back then?

Yes. Exactly how it should be.

[Bloodclaut]

No the bugs don't come included. Its a bug-free 1.12.1 client that staggers the content release.

The content comes in similar to patch releases but theres no actual patching..

This how private servers have been doing it and it works very well.

[Swalload]

The game can't release like day 1, obviously, too much missing stuff, too many wrong design choices and shit, the game was just too terrible at that point. I think playing on 1.12 but maybe with delayed content is a better option.

[Martymark]

Should Naxx be included? It came VERY late in Vanilla, and greatly increased power levels.

[Deleted]

I would preffer a 1.1 to 1.12 progressive server, but I would be fine with a 1.12 server if all the content if pre-nerf, there's no updated OP gear like tier 0.5 etc, and they follow a tiered raid unlocks with a timeline equal to vanilla.

[ombus]

Fix game breaking bug and crashes with a patch cycle like the original... no qol changes because it wont be vainilla then.

[Mantisfactory]

None of the patches are anymore correct than any other. If they only offer progression through the old patches, bugs and all, I'll still play. But what's important about Vanilla WoW are the overall systems in place. The slow pacing, the relative balance between the player and the world, the lack of convenience features giving the world a ground sense of immersion.

I don't care if they make changes within the Vanilla WoW paradigm as long as they aren't reinventing the core of the game. I wanted plenty of change back during Vanilla, some of which wound up happening. But I still would want plenty of things that didn't. Time hasn't made the game perfect in retrospect and it's not some sacred artifact. I'm more than willing to entertain new changes. If it was something that changed *during* Vanilla WoW, it's something they could change in Classic WoW: Balance/talent changes, debuff limits, changes to specific items, sure.

[Thimagryn]

Is 1.12 really the definitive version?

As far as purists go, that's the collective definitive version. Of course everyone has varying opinions, but that's the patch that people have mostly settled on as 'Vanilla'.

Those are just some of the questions both Blizzard and we as a community have to answer. I mean, what is the correct answer here? Even excluding stuff like "Adding Transmog", "Adding Achievements", "Making specs viable", what "Vanilla" do we actually want? Do you have an answer?

There is no such thing as a correct answer to a collective of individual opinions.

[Maggibesti]

Hello there.

So, J. Allen Brack said at Blizzcon that it will take time to make these servers. They need to talk with the community of what Vanilla actually is. He then said the by now at least a bit infamous UBRS 5 man vs. 10 man comment, but I am sure he just meant the change from 5 man dungeons being capped at 10 players being reduced to being capped at 5.

So, what I am getting at here, Vanilla had many, many changes throughout its lifetime. From all those stability changes and bug fixes to the big things: Adding new dungeons and raids, introducing Battlegrounds, revamping many, many classes and their talent trees and so on and so forth.

The main question here is basically:

Is 1.12 really the definitive version? With the revamped talents, the fact that we can get T0.5, Dire Maul is unlocked and raids like Zul'Gurub and Ahn'Qiraj 20 exists in that patch, it reduces the overall difficulty of early endgame content. Now, maybe they stagger raids, but would they also remove Maraudon and Dire Maul at release, since that was patch content? What about T0.5? Do we not get Battlegrounds at release, which in turn comes with their faction and the gear you can buy? And if we are talking about BGs, which version is the correct one? Alterac had many changes throughout Classic, removing many NPCs and weakening the remaining ones - do we want that, the 1.11+ version, or do we want the early one, where all crazy NPCs where still there? What about the opening of AQ, will it open automatically after X months? I know this was added later, but I am not sure if it was during Vanilla or in TBC.

Those are just some of the questions both Blizzard and we as a community have to answer. I mean, what is the correct answer here? Even excluding stuff like "Adding Transmog", "Adding Achievements", "Making specs viable", what "Vanilla" do we actually want? Do you have an answer?

They better start from the earliest part of Vanilla, I mean sure fix the bugs/etc that we don't need, but keep everything that makes vanilla a vanilla, don't add abit of chocolate or whatever to it, just plain as it was minus the bugs. I don't want to see 1.12 talents, it needs to be progressive, like the game just got released, though they can add bengal tiger into the game if they want to, always wanted that beautiful mount, but it never made it into the game, well kinda did since it's just a unarmored zulian, but looks so awesome without armor

[God Save The King]

1.12 was definitely the casual-friendlier easy Vanilla. It really didn't get much easier until TBC launched.

[Rotted]

Yes. Exactly how it should be.

No it shouldn't. You can have Vanilla without it being bug ridden to be a hindrance to the game play.

I'm honestly sick of people crying to have the bugs included. I was listening to a steam the other day and he wanted that old loot bug, where you looted, went into crouch animation, got stuck and couldnt loot anything else. Its fucking retarded and a retarded way of thinking. While I'd like to see the classes like SP and Moonkins being made useable I don't object to that change not happening, but keeping bugs, glitches and exploits in is just stupid.

We should start with the very first original version of vanilla and work our way forwards. Or start with all the raids being present but gated.

[Marston]

I would definitly say remove as many bugs as possible, even post launch there is stuff that only got fixed until TBC or later. For all I care, those bugs can also be removed.

As for class changes and what not, I don't really care that much, could go either way. Someone mentioned in another thread that allowing Curse of Elements to include Nature Resistance would basically make Elemental Shamans viable for raids. Would that be a good change or not? Honestly, I don't know and since I won't play a Shaman in this case I wouldn't care.

But as I said before, imagine we get 1.12 and all raids actually would be unlocked from the start. Would Molten Core actually need a buff in that case, because you have access to stronger gear?

[In Ogres We Trust]

Vanilla with almonds.

[gkai]

Should Naxx be included? It came VERY late in Vanilla, and greatly increased power levels.

Yes, absolutely. It wasn't in the game long enough for most people to run through, but it was still available during its duration. People are much much better at WoW right now than they were years ago during vanilla. If the same content is released in the same fashion, the % amount of players completing game content would be much higher this time around.

[Daedius]

Beta 0.9.3 !

[solarfallz]

1.9 would be my choice.

AQ40 as the highest raid: Amazing raid. Great and varied loot table, including hybrid gear. No overpowered min-maxed Naxx gear that is twice as good as everything before it.
Class revamps: Already done for classes that actually needed it, but prior to mage, priest, and rogue revamps, all of which overbuffed their respective classes.
No dungeon caps: Allowing for 15-man UBRS and 10-man Strat/Scholo. These runs were fun to do with friends and had a totally reasonable trade-off of less loot per person.
AV changes: 1.10 introduced a variety of bad AV changes including the removal of Korrak and racial items.

A couple class tweaks from 1.10 were good, such as fixing some paladin spells, but the talent revamps were ridiculous. Frostbite as a 2nd tier 3 point talent? What were they smoking?

[MMKing]

Asking for a 1.0 to 1.12.1 experience, with every single patch in between is too much to ask.

Launch with molten core + Onyxia -> Maraudon -> Dire maul + Kazzak + Azuregos -> Blackwing Lair + pvp gear stat update -> Zul'Gurub -> Dragons of nightmare -> Ahn'Qiraj -> Tier 0.5 + patch 1.10 item changes and additions -> Naxxramas

Do you want to keep the pvp system from day 1? what about the Battlegrounds? Do you launch AB later than WSG and AV?

AV should be kept pre-nerf forever in my opinion. The hardcore pvp guys farming for honor and nothing else is not gonna play AV anyway, except during the AV weekends and maybe to get the epic 2H mace if they fancy that.