Let's talk about Sylvanas (No she isnt evil).

[splatomat]

Sylvanas isn't an anti-heroine, she isn't morally-ambiguous, she's not misunderstood. Please stop with that nonsense. It makes you look silly.

Sylvanas is a villain right down to her core, plain and easy: "a deliberate scoundrel or criminal", "a character in a story, movie, etc., who does bad things", & "a wicked person".

Her war crimes are myriad and well-established, and she isn't some innocent bystander - she's deliberately and actively-pursuing these plots for her own selfish gain. She has been racking up bad karma for three+ expansions now, and maybe - just maybe - it's time for that karma to run her down at 75 mph, come to a stop, and then leave the tires spinning on her face. Even GARROSH knew that she was evil, and he's basically the gold standard!

Having her traipse through every expac without fail because of her fan base popularity is more than bad storytelling, it's eyerollingly obnoxious. It's also, unfortunately, probably what's going to happen again.

But, on the infinitesimally small chance that it doesn't, killing her over and over would be just about the only thing to make me return to serious raiding.

[Magnagarde]

Lock her up.

Inside the Violet Hold, preferably.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Just because she's a layered character does not mean she's not evil. Most evil people do not see themselves as evil, they have feelings, sense of duty, valor and such.

Sylvanas sees her own people as tools to keep herself alive. She spreads the curse of undeath knowing it damns the souls of the afflicted. Under her regime, humans have been put into forced labor camps and experimented on. Despite not needing land to feed her people, she has commanded a campaign over nearby nations and used weapons of mass destruction that not only kill people but taint the land. And, despite all her talk about free will, she saw no problem in enslaving Eyir for her own needs.

Sylvanas is a typical dictator that will fake kindness towards others as long as they are doing what she wants. People are tools to her, she will respect them only so long as they are useful. At some point, her vengeance was all that mattered, now, she's worried only about her own survival.

She's also an hypocrite that laments her own cursed existence while killing and damning others to the same fate.

She's just cunning enough to hide her true intentions and manipulate others into her schemes, and that's it.

At some point, however, her plans and schemes will unravel, and she'll meet retribution. She's gonna he hoisted by her own petard.

You summarized my own thoughts exactly. One of the most notable lines I remember from her in WarCraft 3 was "What are we if not slaves to this torment?". So in other words, she admits that the Forsaken's state of undeath is a curse which is going to torment anyone inflicted, yes she willingly inflicts this upon others by raising them from their graves and from the battlefield to fuel her own power and security. Heck, her entire quest for vengeance against Arthas was completely built on the premise that his practicing of necromancy was a bad thing and that Sylvanas can never find peace in death because of it. Still she does the exact same thing anyway. Either Sylvanas is Azeroth's biggest hypocrite or she somehow forgot to thank Arthas for all he did against her and other raised Undead. Either way, I don't think it paints her in a very good light.

[jdbond592]

Sylvanus must die!

[Frozen Death Knight]

Why is everyone saying Sylvanas refuses to accept death and is afraid to die? Anyone else remember her explicitly stating to Vol'jin, after he said the Loa were coming to claim him, "In the end, death claims us all." Doesn't sound at all like a person who is afraid of death or refuses to accept it. Quite the opposite actually.

*speeds forward a couple of months into Legion* One of Sylvanas' first major decisions as the newly appointed Warchief after Vol'jin's death was to enslave an entire sentient race of Val'kyr just to gain her immortality. In no story during my 26 years of being alive have I seen or heard of a character trying to do such a thing and not be completely and utterly afraid of death. Now I know what you are going to say that this is not true, but if that is the case, then it removes a lot of relatability to her character when being afraid of dying is a near universal sentiment. If she is not afraid of dying, then none of her actions make a lick of sense anymore.

[yetgdhfgh]

I think people need to understand what she actually is She is not a blood elf she is a full on Banshee in a blood elf costume whos whole life is pure torment cause thats her punishment for giving Arthas the run around.

Its admirable that she hasnt gone full on evil with the way she feels.

She is certainly cunning and its tragic her and Garrosh never got on cause between the 2 of them boy would the Alliance have been in trouble with Garroshes iron will and her cunning.

[Heavens Night]

She is a antagonist in a path of redemption.

Lets see how she will do.

She is an abomination that needs putting down.

[Highwhale]

not true but if that helps you sleep at night with the dog

You have some mental problems or what? Because barking at people for no reason on internet is not normal.

I can understand - Sylvanas is your wifu - you fap imaging you fuck her - but please don't spread diseases on forum.

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Genn was introduced since wc2, as coward racist who only talked to hear himself talking, only caring about Greymane, (exact words from I think either day of the dragon or tides of darkness book)

I'm talking about age dude - Garrosh was older than both Varian and Genn.

[Deleted]

You have some mental problems or what? Because barking at people for no reason on internet is not normal.

I can understand - Sylvanas is your wifu - you fap imaging you fuck her - but please don't spread diseases on forum.

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I'm talking about age dude - Garrosh was older than both Varian and Genn.

dont be a hater dude

[Highwhale]

dont be a hater dude

I wouldn't if some Sylvanas fanboys weren't acting like mad dogs on leash...

[Maerad]

Got a source on that? We don't know the full story of what leads up to BFA. The upcoming novel will probably give more info. All we know so far is she has some sort of plan involving Stormwind in the novel but we don't know what that entails or how it plays out yet. We don't have enough info to say Genn is Garrosh 2.0 and pushes Anduin into war. Just as we don't have enough info to say Sylvannas attacks the alliance for no reason but to start a war yet. We have to wait for the full context.

No real source for now, but you can see how Anduin stuggels when Genn tells him all horde must die in the cinematic. IMHO Genn DID manipulate Anduin, because he hates Sylvanas with a passion (and not the horde itself, before at least) but now that Sylvanas is Warchief he seems to hate everything that is even remotely horde.

[Niaraa]

the Alliance know nothing about the Horde situation in broken shore (even the alliance polayed cinematic dont show us the problem) moreover Sylvanas kill Genn Son and use plague on Gilneas (and hillsbrad). it's pretty easy to understand the Worgen hate for her. so no she is not evil, she is just horrible, and no Genn is no garrosh 2.0

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Yes, she is. Yes, we will kill her eventually.

[loppy88]

Keep telling it yourself at nights...

Your bias is showing.

[Highwhale]

Your bias is showing.

Same with your fanboyism.

[Florena]

No real source for now, but you can see how Anduin stuggels when Genn tells him all horde must die in the cinematic. IMHO Genn DID manipulate Anduin, because he hates Sylvanas with a passion (and not the horde itself, before at least) but now that Sylvanas is Warchief he seems to hate everything that is even remotely horde.

I'm sure Genn would jump at the chance to attack the Undercity but we don't really have any proof Anduin was manipulated into it. Especially if it's true that this is AFTER Teldrassil is burned by the horde.

[Deleted]

I don't think Blizzard has the balls. Not only is she an extremely popular character, the Horde has lost three Warchiefs recently.

no warchife rules for very long - king terenas menethil

[sam86]

They are not arrows in the quiver but a bulkwark in the story. Which means "not disposable tools but tools I have to use wisely because I'm scared of death".

Doesn't change what I said.

Also, the end of the Cataclysm quests is this:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27601/cities-in-dust

The whole dialogue of the Silverpine conclusion chain is there, under comments. Nowhere it points to her "caring about the Horde and the Forsaken now".

You raised no feasible objection.

Ok wtf exactly is the relation ? Are u seriously playing idiot dumb ? The quest I refer too is way early in Silverpine Forest, when u walk with her on a horse moving from one base to another, I have no time to search for it and I'm 100% sure anyone who quested there know it, even more than last quest in the chain there

I see the talk of Illidan's retcon a lot.?

It wasn't a retcon actually, illidan didn't deny the evil he did, we simply never saw it from his own pov, IE: he was doing anything for the greater good, we assumed (for stupid reasons) that he was just 'i R evil'
If u played during TBC, u may remember on wow eu official forums the famous thread that was titled by a gnome warrior (Yes i still remember that after all those years) saying (summary) that Illidan is doing great job fighting the BL, why are we even kill him, official blizzard answer ? because he drop epics (yes that what blizzard said), ppl mocked them non stop for months (I was one of them) on forums and blizz deleted the thread, and banned anyone who even hinted about it for months
Since that day i stopped posting on blizz, because they fucked and they blame us for that fuck

[Frozen Death Knight]

I'm talking about age dude - Garrosh was older than both Varian and Genn.

I know Grom had Garrosh around the time before the 1st War and the opening of the Dark Portal, but is he really older than Genn? Wasn't Genn a young adult around the time of the 1st War? I need to find a proper timeline for this.

[Whatever Dude]

Sylvanas is a perfect example of how the female gender can cloud people's judgment.

It blows my mind that Sylvanas has gone through the years enslaving, mass-murdering, torturing, green-lighting the development of a weapon of mass destruction, annihilating the environment among many other things. Southshore is just ONE example, where she ordered to Forsaken to go in there and slaughter all the men, women, and children indiscriminately and melt them with highly acidic slime. What, you think Southshore only had grown ups in it? Get real.

After all this, there are STILL legions of people defending her and thinking she isn't evil. It's pretty fucking irritating to read.